Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #181

[girlhasnoname]

Any ideas?

View attachment 498975

Interesting that it was filed by the State to Rushville PD. Isn't that where all the alleged conspiratorial group came from? And the 3 officers (including Click) operated from? Hmmmm.

JMO

 

[FromGermany1]

Interesting that it was filed by the State to Rushville PD. Isn't that where all the alleged conspiratorial group came from? And the 3 officers (including Click) operated from? Hmmmm.

JMO

Can't say anything, because I unfortunately have missed the whole Rushville-part. Don't know, why.

 

[Spartygirl]

East and to the north you will find Mexico, IN.
Maybe he was visiting someone who lives there?

I think Mexico is to the West of Delphi ( I admit I am N/S/E/W challenged and prefer directions telling me to turn right or left LOL)
***EDIT** REMOVED INCORRECT MAP**
CORRECTION--- Mexico is East of Delphi.

But RA house is South of the bridge so IDK
Richard Allen lives five minutes from the bridge. Online records say he’s lived at the Delphi address since about 2006. He previously lived in Peru, Greenwood and Mexico, Indiana. The house was a cash purchase; it’s assessed at $142,800, online records show.

 

[AugustWest]

I think Mexico is to the West of Delphi ( I admit I am N/S/E/W challenged and prefer directions telling me to turn right or left LOL)

That is Delphi, Ohio that you have mapped, not Delphi, IN.

 

[Spartygirl]

That is Delphi, Ohio that you have mapped, not Delphi, IN.

LOL, LOL... See-- I said I was direction/map challenged hahahaha

I corrected it and Thank you for pointing that out to me.

Carry on and I will leave the mapping to someone else.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Here is a link from searching the terms military time in this thread. There are two pages of posts.

Not once did I write that MIL time was used throughout the PCA. I don't see where anyone stated that but I'm not opening each post to find out for sure. I only know I did not write that statement.

Maybe you'll glance through them. IDK.

Search results for query: military time

Post #924 is the one that started our discussion. Maybe you’ll glance at it and you can see that you posted a screenshot of an unverified unlinked document to counter my theory that military time was used only the in the narrative between RA and DD in the PCA.
#924. No confusion here.
<modsnip>

 

[FrostedGlass]

Maybe pushed back as more discovery has come in? His true role expanded since the Contempt hearing. Could they up the charges?

Is MW sitting in jail during all this or out on bail? I don't have the fortitude to follow both of these lol.

He bonded out - $250.00 cash. He's only charged with a criminal misdemeanor.
The P can up the charges if they so desire but there is no request on the record to do so.

 

[mrjitty]

I believe the screenshot is of the PCA for the search warrant for RA's house. You can find it on page 110 of the pdf linked by Fox 59 on this page: Delphi Documents Released

I was wondering that.

 

[girlhasnoname]

A Motion has been filed today 4/23 by the State: Answer to Motion to Suppress Statements. I don't know if anyone can access it yet or not.

 

[susiQ]

Do you mean disorganized, as in the FBI’s categorization of disorganized-organized offender typology? If so, I’m glad you brought this up-I would like to discuss/hear everyone’s thoughts on the Delphi homicides re: organized or disorganized?

One of the earliest attempts to classify serial killers was the FBI organized/disorganized crime scene typology, developed by the FBI’s Behavioral Science Unit in the 1980s by Ressler, Burgess, Douglas, and colleagues. The two dichotomous categories were: determined by the offender’s behavior at a murder scene, and reflective of the offender’s personality, development, social interactions, and criminal history.

The level of forensic awareness was central to these 2 categories (organized = forensically aware; disorganized = not forensically aware).

Organized offenders exercise a great deal of control at the crime scene, tend to be more forensically aware, socially competent, more likely to target strangers, more likely to use a vehicle, and above average intelligence. Example: Joel Rifkin.

Disorganized offenders kill spontaneously/opportunistically, leaving a muddled/disorganized crime scene, are more likely to be psychotic, have low social competence, are more likely to know the victim, more likely to not use a vehicle during the commission of a murder, more likely to keep a dead body, and more likely to leave the weapon at the crime scene/less forensically aware. Example: Herbert Mullin.

The Delphi Crime Scene is described on p. 28-31 of the FM (linked below). Per the below lists and information we have, which would everyone consider the Delphi killer(s)? Organized or Disorganized? Per Ressler et. al. (Sourced below):

*Organized Killers*

-offense planned

-victim is targeted stranger

-personalized victim (i.e. there is something specific about their victims, although strangers)

-controlled conversation

-controlled crime scene (awareness of investigative procedure/forensic awareness; they often remove a great deal of evidence from the crime scene, resulting in more difficult apprehension)

-demands submissive victims (controls the victims and the scene)

-restraints used

-aggressive acts PRIOR to death (due to sadistic nature/gains pleasure from prolonged suffering)

-body hidden

-weapon or evidence absent

-transports victim/body


*Disorganized Killer*

-spontaneous offenses

-victim is known and/or in known location

-depersonalized victim (there are no particular traits about the victim)

-minimal conversation

-random, sloppy crime scene (often laden with evidence to assist LE in identifying the offender)

-sudden violent to the victim (often begins with trivial things, trivial arguments)

-minimal use of restraints (the violence is a means to an end, act-focused kill)

-SA postmortem (due to social and sexual incompetence)

-body left in view

-weapon/evidence often present

-body left at scene (as opposed to transporting and moving the body)

Personally, I feel the Delphi scene as we know it is contradictory. I don’t know which category I believe the killer(s) would fit into (JMO), so I am curious what everyone else thinks!

Sources:
Crime Scene and Profile Characteristics of Organized and Disorganized Murders. Ressler & Burgess. FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin Volume: 54. Issue: 8 Dated: (August 1985) Pages: 18-25.
Crime Scene and Profile Characteristics of Organized and Disorganized Murders | Office of Justice Programs
Sexual Killers and Their Victims: Identifying Patterns Through Crime Scene Analysis. Ressler et. al. (1986)
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/088626086001003003
2nd link on DOJ website
Sexual Killers and Their Victims - Identifying Patterns Through Crime Scene Analysis | Office of Justice Programs
(If mods need further info, I am happy to supply personal identification/academic background re: list summarization)
FM, p. 28-31
https://www.scribd.com/document/672126677/DELPHI-Memorandum-in-Support-of-Motion-pdf

EDIT: Typo

MOO, definitely “Organized.”

 

[girlhasnoname]

Can't say anything, because I unfortunately have missed the whole Rushville-part. Don't know, why.

Hah - 'I don't why' is a question I ask myself on the daily. No worries as I'm not sure myself.

 

[girlhasnoname]

He bonded out - $250.00 cash. He's only charged with a criminal misdemeanor.
The P can up the charges if they so desire but there is no request on the record to do so.

True, but MW's Motion to Dismiss was denied by a totally new P (D and Judge as well on this case). There may be some more fallout from the Leaks down the line, or not.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Maybe pushed back as more discovery has come in? His true role expanded since the Contempt hearing. Could they up the charges?

Is MW sitting in jail during all this or out on bail? I don't have the fortitude to follow both of these lol.

Out on a low bond I believe.

 

[vinayd]

Interesting that it was filed by the State to Rushville PD. Isn't that where all the alleged conspiratorial group came from? And the 3 officers (including Click) operated from? Hmmmm.

JMO

Yes that's the connection. I need to catch up. Click was with Rushville PD who interviewed EF.

 

[vinayd]

Post #924 is the one that started our discussion. Maybe you’ll glance at it and you can see that you posted a screenshot of an unverified unlinked document to counter my theory that military time was used only the in the narrative between RA and DD in the PCA.

Here is a link posted earlier in the thread that shows military time being used. Start page 9:

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23863675/allen-search-warrant-return.pdf

 

[WildHuncher]

The truth of it doesn't help the D, but the distorted and exaggerated rumours, like 'searchers took pix of the bodies' helped the D. And that's what they wanted, IMO.

They got me. If you’re skimming along at breakneck speed to avoid admitting TL;DR you’re several pages past it before your brain goes “Wait! What!?”

 

[TTF14]

Any ideas?

View attachment 498975

They are seeking Todd Click's employment records to discredit him. It's a weak argument, IMO. Instead of attacking the information, they'll instead attack the presenter.

 

[WildHuncher]

Do you mean disorganized, as in the FBI’s categorization of disorganized-organized offender typology? If so, I’m glad you brought this up-I would like to discuss/hear everyone’s thoughts on the Delphi homicides re: organized or disorganized?

One of the earliest attempts to classify serial killers was the FBI organized/disorganized crime scene typology, developed by the FBI’s Behavioral Science Unit in the 1980s by Ressler, Burgess, Douglas, and colleagues. The two dichotomous categories were: determined by the offender’s behavior at a murder scene, and reflective of the offender’s personality, development, social interactions, and criminal history.

The level of forensic awareness was central to these 2 categories (organized = forensically aware; disorganized = not forensically aware).

Organized offenders exercise a great deal of control at the crime scene, tend to be more forensically aware, socially competent, more likely to target strangers, more likely to use a vehicle, and above average intelligence. Example: Joel Rifkin.

Disorganized offenders kill spontaneously/opportunistically, leaving a muddled/disorganized crime scene, are more likely to be psychotic, have low social competence, are more likely to know the victim, more likely to not use a vehicle during the commission of a murder, more likely to keep a dead body, and more likely to leave the weapon at the crime scene/less forensically aware. Example: Herbert Mullin.

The Delphi Crime Scene is described on p. 28-31 of the FM (linked below). Per the below lists and information we have, which would everyone consider the Delphi killer(s)? Organized or Disorganized? Per Ressler et. al. (Sourced below):

*Organized Killers*

-offense planned

-victim is targeted stranger

-personalized victim (i.e. there is something specific about their victims, although strangers)

-controlled conversation

-controlled crime scene (awareness of investigative procedure/forensic awareness; they often remove a great deal of evidence from the crime scene, resulting in more difficult apprehension)

-demands submissive victims (controls the victims and the scene)

-restraints used

-aggressive acts PRIOR to death (due to sadistic nature/gains pleasure from prolonged suffering)

-body hidden

-weapon or evidence absent

-transports victim/body


*Disorganized Killer*

-spontaneous offenses

-victim is known and/or in known location

-depersonalized victim (there are no particular traits about the victim)

-minimal conversation

-random, sloppy crime scene (often laden with evidence to assist LE in identifying the offender)

-sudden violent to the victim (often begins with trivial things, trivial arguments)

-minimal use of restraints (the violence is a means to an end, act-focused kill)

-SA postmortem (due to social and sexual incompetence)

-body left in view

-weapon/evidence often present

-body left at scene (as opposed to transporting and moving the body)

Personally, I feel the Delphi scene as we know it is contradictory. I don’t know which category I believe the killer(s) would fit into (JMO), so I am curious what everyone else thinks!

Sources:
Crime Scene and Profile Characteristics of Organized and Disorganized Murders. Ressler & Burgess. FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin Volume: 54. Issue: 8 Dated: (August 1985) Pages: 18-25.
Crime Scene and Profile Characteristics of Organized and Disorganized Murders | Office of Justice Programs
Sexual Killers and Their Victims: Identifying Patterns Through Crime Scene Analysis. Ressler et. al. (1986)
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/088626086001003003
2nd link on DOJ website
Sexual Killers and Their Victims - Identifying Patterns Through Crime Scene Analysis | Office of Justice Programs
(If mods need further info, I am happy to supply personal identification/academic background re: list summarization)
FM, p. 28-31
https://www.scribd.com/document/672126677/DELPHI-Memorandum-in-Support-of-Motion-pdf

EDIT: Typo

It figures to be a spectrum, not a dichotomy. Few are 100 percent organized or disorganized. Some sort of mix is more the rule. MOO, but most human traits are like that.

 

[vinayd]

They are seeking Todd Click's employment records to discredit him. It's a weak argument, IMO. Instead of attacking the information, they'll instead attack the presenter.

Interesting. Is he still employed with Rushville? Not sure how this is relevant unless it ties into his investigation into Fields. Maybe he was pulled off the case we may come to find out. I know he referenced it was when his partner was killed in duty that his work stopped on the case.

 

[TTF14]

Interesting. Is he still employed with Rushville? Not sure how this is relevant unless it ties into his investigation into Fields. Maybe he was pulled off the case we may come to find out. I know he referenced it was when his partner was killed in duty that his work stopped on the case.

The motion mentions a possible prior Brady-Giglio violation that may speak to his believability I guess. It seems like grasping at straws to me. They definitely want to keep the theory out of it. On the other hand, Nick McLeland made some good points in his response to the motion to suppress (but he didn't refute that JH didn't Mirandize RA and didn't really address whether or not the "interview" was custodial vs. non-custodial). I skimmed it all though! I don't know if I'm allowed to post the docs here.

ETA: The Defense didn't object to getting Click's employment records and the motion included the paperwork to show it's already in progress.

ETA2: I think Ms. Diener probably wrote that response to the motion to suppress, not Nick McLeland!