Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #182

[susiQ]

They can argue that RA is definitely one of the killers, so raising the possibility of an accomplice does not actually raise doubt.

RSBM
Okay then! SHOW ME THE MONEY! What accomplices?? THEY haven’t pulled any out of their hats! Surely with ALL the evidence they have against RA they would have been able to link him to them, no?? If RA hasn’t rolled on them after everything he’s been through, I doubt he ever will! The reason he hasn’t rolled on any is because RA had NO accomplices because he didn’t kill the girls. MOO. In my estimation there’s no way he could do what was done by himself. Others will disagree and I’m fine with that.

As fact, we know EF, JM and RAbr are connected to BH and PW. Easy peasy. TH, JM’s ex testified to that and also that he borrowed her car and it came back with blood on it. They have JM’s phone. They know he kidnaps at gunpoint, even without ammo when he doesn’t get his meth. Yes, maybe EF’s phone was not at the crime scene that day. Maybe he was told to leave it at home? Oh right, that’s what RA did and that makes him a suspect, but not EF?

So, if all this can be known, why can’t they find the accomplices they suppose RA was connected to? Surely they have the means to do that.
All JMO
Ed:sp past my bedtime

 

[mrjitty]

Just 19 more days, trial is closing in rapidly. Almost home.

I just can't see it - IMO we need at least the following evidential motions and hearings!

1. Hearing - Admissibility of 2nd police interview

2. Hearing - Suppression of confessions/admissions

3. Motion in limine / Hearing - suppression of bullet* (various grounds e.g chain of custody?)

4. Motion in limine - exclusion of SODDI defence

Or is Gull just go full ride or die and deal with them all on the fly?

* i know i know, but i am sick of typing 'unspent round' so i am going to call it the bullet from now on

 

[vinayd]

I guess the video Libby bravely took <modsnip> should be tossed like the D wants. Oh and toss the bullet too.

Sorry the video is gonna stay in. And it’s going to show their <modsnip> client walking on that bridge. Going to hear his gun click or one of the girls yell gun. This was a solo crime. Not a group activity.

 

[mrjitty]

Oh I know you aren't blaming the D. It was just my way to try to have some empathy for them . I share your sentiments on this D team. I wish RA had better defense attorneys. Look at the attorney for Kohberger case. She doesn't engage in the conspiracy theories of youtubers, podcasters, redditers, etc (tunnels under house, etc) and she is respectful.

This D on Delphi seems to pass more time watching social media and talking to podcasters/youtubers, etc than to look at the discovery.

I also find it interesting how behind the game they are compared to Iris Eytan in the Morphew case where the prosecution actually were heavily sanctioned for discovery violations. In that case weighty pre-trial aspects were being dealt with months before trial - not weeks before - despite the violations and slowness.

I think it is in part the difference between a high powered paid for attorney vs public defender.

But I also wonder if this is now the main strategy? Speedy trial seems to enable a drive car at wall/damn the torpedos approach ... so you kind of engineer a procedural train wreck then 3 weeks before trial metaphorically throw your hands in the air

 

[snooptroop88]

As far as BH he was tipped in several times and prob still being tipped in today. Maybe his ex wanted the tip money. Maybe EF sisters conspired against their mentally challenged brother for … tip money. Either way no one is arrested for this crime at this time but RA.

Totally possible. Or/and maybe she just now can't stand him, she is an "ex." Who knows? LE did look at many people, and agreed lots of theories are possible. But they also looked at RL, and just looking at RL and listening to him, there's no way I believe it could have been RL (moo). And he was tipped in, too, I believe.

 

[susiQ]

As to BH saying that - it strikes me as a clearly hearsay comment that likely can't be used at trial? Or do you think the defence will try to call him as a witness? I am sceptical the Judge would allow that.

I understand it’s hearsay. My point is why was this not investigated further in 2017? Perhaps then it would not be hearsay. They interviewed BH. Did he express to them how he “knew” PW and his people did it? If he truly believed PW did it why wouldn’t he tell them? Maybe he did? How would we know? No recording. Missing this, missing that. So convenient.

Keep in mind, I once respected these people. I foolishly believed they knew what they were doing. I am generally pro P and pro LE. Not this time. After what I have seen, they don’t deserve it. Respect needs to be earned. IMO they did not do their job. JMHO

 

[vinayd]

Totally possible. Or/and maybe she just now can't stand him, she is an "ex." Who knows? LE did look at many people, and agreed lots of theories are possible. But they also looked at RL, and just looking at RL and listening to him, there's no way I believe it could have been RL (moo). And he was tipped in, too, I believe.

Yes because she tried so hard to get him in trouble. The kidnapping was of some man and a drug deal gone bad. She then found his cell phone months later and gave that to the cops. Nothing panned out.

And yes RL the landowner.

I watched a YouTube recently and it had detailed walk through of the crime scene. Then they showed the route of the girls. It was very informational to me. The place was secluded and hand selected by the killer.

 

[susiQ]

I also find it interesting how behind the game they are compared to Iris Eytan in the Morphew case where the prosecution actually were heavily sanctioned for discovery violations. In that case weighty pre-trial aspects were being dealt with months before trial - not weeks before - despite the violations and slowness.

I think it is in part the difference between a high powered paid for attorney vs public defender.

But I also wonder if this is now the main strategy? Speedy trial seems to enable a drive car at wall/damn the torpedos approach ... so you kind of engineer a procedural train wreck then 3 weeks before trial metaphorically throw your hands in the air

Are you sure LE didn’t engineer the train wreck starting in 2017? 5 1/2 years to do it and boy did they do a bang-up job of it! In my mind, it’s the D that are trying to clean up the mess they made. MOO

 

[mrjitty]

I understand it’s hearsay. My point is why was this not investigated further in 2017? Perhaps then it would not be hearsay. They interviewed BH. Did he express to them how he “knew” PW and his people did it? If he truly believed PW did it why wouldn’t he tell them? Maybe he did? How would we know? No recording. Missing this, missing that. So convenient.

Keep in mind, I once respected these people. I foolishly believed they knew what they were doing. I am generally pro P and pro LE. Not this time. After what I have seen, they don’t deserve it. Respect needs to be earned. IMO they did not do their job. JMHO

I am not sure what you expect exactly.

BH was investigated in 2017. IMO there is a certain seduction to the Click theory that if only they'd looked harder they would have found something - but they apparently already did take a hard look at these guys and never found anything

 

[susiQ]

Yes because she tried so hard to get him in trouble. The kidnapping was of some man and a drug deal gone bad. She then found his cell phone months later and gave that to the cops. Nothing panned out.

And yes RL the landowner.

I watched a YouTube recently and it had detailed walk through of the crime scene. Then they showed the route of the girls. It was very informational to me. The place was secluded and hand selected by the killer.

Correction. TH did not give the phone to the “cops.” She told Click about it and he called Holeman who said he would pick it up. He never did. When Click learned that Holeman couldn’t be bothered to pick it up, he called the D and they gladly did! You gotta love that move . Can’t wait to see if there’s some interesting stuff on the “Goldilocks phone!”

 

[susiQ]

I am not sure what you expect exactly.

BH was investigated in 2017. IMO there is a certain seduction to the Click theory that if only they'd looked harder they would have found something - but they apparently already did take a hard look at these guys and never found anything

How do you know they took a “hard” look at him and found nothing? Just because they say so? If you don’t look, you don’t find. Maybe that was their strategy in dealing with someone that needed some “protection.” Tell those that ARE looking to stop looking (Ferency, Murphy, Click). But of course, that’s a conspiracy and they never happen. JMHO

 

[sunshineray]

I also find it interesting how behind the game they are compared to Iris Eytan in the Morphew case where the prosecution actually were heavily sanctioned for discovery violations. In that case weighty pre-trial aspects were being dealt with months before trial - not weeks before - despite the violations and slowness.

I think it is in part the difference between a high powered paid for attorney vs public defender.

But I also wonder if this is now the main strategy? Speedy trial seems to enable a drive car at wall/damn the torpedos approach ... so you kind of engineer a procedural train wreck then 3 weeks before trial metaphorically throw your hands in the air

Throw your hands in the air IF all the confessions stay in and accept a LWOP deal?

 

[sunshineray]

I understand it’s hearsay. My point is why was this not investigated further in 2017? Perhaps then it would not be hearsay. They interviewed BH. Did he express to them how he “knew” PW and his people did it? If he truly believed PW did it why wouldn’t he tell them? Maybe he did? How would we know? No recording. Missing this, missing that. So convenient.

Keep in mind, I once respected these people. I foolishly believed they knew what they were doing. I am generally pro P and pro LE. Not this time. After what I have seen, they don’t deserve it. Respect needs to be earned. IMO they did not do their job. JMHO

I'm wondering why you think investigators weren't satisfied with alibis? Is it just because of one Rushville PD tech officer's opinion? Just curious.

 

[vinayd]

Correction. TH did not give the phone to the “cops.” She told Click about it and he called Holeman who said he would pick it up. He never did. When Click learned that Holeman couldn’t be bothered to pick it up, he called the D and they gladly did! You gotta love that move . Can’t wait to see if there’s some interesting stuff on the “Goldilocks phone!”

That’s right. Keep forgetting about Click because he’s supposed to be retired. Not inserting himself after an arrest was made because it made no sense to him. And then the D running for this Goldilocks phone when they should be looking at the piles of discovery in front of them.
Pretty sure this phone was discussed during a hearing. I do my best research in the morning with coffee so I’ll revisit this

 

[mrjitty]

How do you know they took a “hard” look at him and found nothing? Just because they say so? If you don’t look, you don’t find. Maybe that was their strategy in dealing with someone that needed some “protection.” Tell those that ARE looking to stop looking (Ferency, Murphy, Click). But of course, that’s a conspiracy and they never happen. JMHO

Well for instance all of the info laid out by the defence came from police investigation of the suspects. So it seems they were investigated for an extended period.

 

[sunshineray]

How do you know they took a “hard” look at him and found nothing? Just because they say so? If you don’t look, you don’t find. Maybe that was their strategy in dealing with someone that needed some “protection.” Tell those that ARE looking to stop looking (Ferency, Murphy, Click). But of course, that’s a conspiracy and they never happen. JMHO

So where's Murphy in all this, I wonder? I know Ferency has passed away, rest his soul, and it seems from the P asking for Click's Rushville PD records because of Brady-Giglo violation (it's the P's duty to inform a defendant that a witness they're going to call is questionable), that the third investigator's insight might be helpful in all this mess.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

What is the Brady violation for police officers?

"Police officers who have been dishonest are sometimes referred to as "Brady cops." Because of the Brady ruling, prosecutors are required to notify defendants and their attorneys whenever a law enforcement official involved in their case has a sustained record for knowingly lying in an official capacity. Lists of such officers are known as "Brady lists". The growing use of Brady, both in the federal and state sectors, is one of the most important changes affecting police officers' employment."

Brady disclosure - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[mrjitty]

I was wondering if the subpoena for the Brady-Giglo violation on Click is not because the prosecution wants to go blue on blue but because they have to discover it?

(ETA see para 40 of the recent motion for sanctions and motion to compel)

It would actually be quite bad if law enforcement hid this.

 

[sunshineray]

I was wondering if the subpoena for the Brady-Giglo violation on Click is not because the prosecution wants to go blue on blue but because they have to discover it?

It would actually be quite bad if law enforcement hid this.

Yeah they're "required to notify the defendants and their attoneys". Took a long time to do that. I guess they were waiting for official notice from the D that he was going to be called to testify?

 

[mrjitty]

Yeah they're "required to notify the defendants and their attoneys". Took a long time to do that. I guess they were waiting for official notice from the D that he was going to be called to testify?

Or maybe Click recently told the defence this existed?

 

[sunshineray]

Or maybe Click recently told the defence this existed?

Oooo hadn't thought of that