Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #185

[Spartygirl]

You and I go way back.. could this be about the DP guy who once called into Greeno’s YouTube show and confessed to being the Delphi Killer?

I'm not FrostedG but I remember that !!
There are 2 DP's and the one that called in was crazy as hel!
JMO

 

[sunshineray]

Not sure about P, but an audio forensics expert from the Garrett Discovery Lab in Orlando was asked by Inside Edition to do a voice comparison with James Chadwell. Said audio file was a little too short.

Wonder if Libby got more audio than what has been released.

 

[sunshineray]

Voice analysis likely would be inadmissible; doesn't pass reliability indicia. Here is an earlier post I made on the issue.

Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #179

Some things that are really puzzling to me that may not be answered - RA knew he had been seen by three girls, so much so that he came forward to the CO, but proceeded with a murder not too far away - RA kept his car and gun and stayed in Delphi, working in a customer facing role, even after the...

www.websleuths.com

I just found this but don't know the science. It's interesting though.

258. Admissibility Of Spectrograms (Voice Prints)

This is archived content from the U.S. Department of Justice website. The information here may be outdated and links may no longer function. Please contact [email protected] if you have any questions about the archive site.

www.justice.gov

 

[AugustWest]

I just found this but don't know the science. It's interesting though.
View attachment 509866

258. Admissibility Of Spectrograms (Voice Prints)

This is archived content from the U.S. Department of Justice website. The information here may be outdated and links may no longer function. Please contact [email protected] if you have any questions about the archive site.

www.justice.gov

That is archived data, but yes, the subject matter is interesting. The dates on the ends of the cases tell you how recent the content. The law has changed on the issue quite a bit since 1989.

From your link:

"This is archived content from the U.S. Department of Justice website. The information here may be outdated and links may no longer function. Please contact [email protected] if you have any questions about the archive site."

 

[steeltowngirl]

Validity

• Indiana has recognized the validity of voice identifications.

Matthews v. State, 518 N.E.2d 807, 808 (Ind. 1988)(citing Barnes v. State, 266 N.E.2d 617, 618 (Ind. 1971), reh’g denied)

Chambers v. State, 422 N.E.2d 1198, 1201 (Ind. 1981)(citing Barnes v. State, 266 N.E.2d 617, 618 (Ind. 1971), reh’g denied))

See Harris v. State, 373 N.E.2d 149, 150 (Ind. 1978)(“Use of voice identification of an offender is permitted in criminal cases.”)

MCPO Casebook - Voice Identification

Admissibility Suggestivity in voice identifications: Subject of what is said Suggestivity in voice identifications: Voice identification lineups Sufficiency Voice identification evidence as direct evidence

www.mcpocasebook.com

 

[Caylee Advocate]

That's cool..

I respect your opinion but I still believe it was a great strategy.

The family may have been upset at first, not understanding the "why".

IIRC, Kelsie German even posted later, regarding the 2nd sketch, that "There is a reason for it, Thankful we have it now" -

Like I said, connecting the dots, it does make sense to me but that is JMO

And you know I respect your opinion as well. If all opinions here could learn from us **LMAO**... wouldn't it be great? Everyone agreeing to disagree could become a little too boring. MOO

 

[AugustWest]

Validity

• Indiana has recognized the validity of voice identifications.

Matthews v. State, 518 N.E.2d 807, 808 (Ind. 1988)(citing Barnes v. State, 266 N.E.2d 617, 618 (Ind. 1971), reh’g denied)

Chambers v. State, 422 N.E.2d 1198, 1201 (Ind. 1981)(citing Barnes v. State, 266 N.E.2d 617, 618 (Ind. 1971), reh’g denied))

See Harris v. State, 373 N.E.2d 149, 150 (Ind. 1978)(“Use of voice identification of an offender is permitted in criminal cases.”)

MCPO Casebook - Voice Identification

Admissibility Suggestivity in voice identifications: Subject of what is said Suggestivity in voice identifications: Voice identification lineups Sufficiency Voice identification evidence as direct evidence

www.mcpocasebook.com

There is a specific test for the admission of certain voice identifications. Emphasis certain. One of the factors required for voice identification is listed in my post I quoted from earlier. You have to have minimal familiarity with the voice you are identifying.

All the cases above deal with witness identifications. Not voice spectrum analysis. Seriously, go read that law journal I linked in the post. It's interesting.

 

[steeltowngirl]

There is a specific test for the admission of certain voice identifications. Emphasis certain. One of the factors required for voice identification is listed in my post I quoted from earlier. You have to have minimal familiarity with the voice you are identifying.

All the cases above deal with witness identifications. Not voice spectrum analysis. Seriously, go read that law journal I linked in the post. It's interesting.

It is very interesting. I will read your post, along with other information I am finding about forensic voice analysis and new technologies. When I call my bank, they use voice recognition to authenticate me (which understood is based on a previous recording of my voice). Fascinating to learn about the advancements. Perhaps courts are (or will) begin to consider the new forensic tools, and case law will evolve. I would love to see this case set a precedent.

jmo

 

[TTF14]

Validity

• Indiana has recognized the validity of voice identifications.

Matthews v. State, 518 N.E.2d 807, 808 (Ind. 1988)(citing Barnes v. State, 266 N.E.2d 617, 618 (Ind. 1971), reh’g denied)

Chambers v. State, 422 N.E.2d 1198, 1201 (Ind. 1981)(citing Barnes v. State, 266 N.E.2d 617, 618 (Ind. 1971), reh’g denied))

See Harris v. State, 373 N.E.2d 149, 150 (Ind. 1978)(“Use of voice identification of an offender is permitted in criminal cases.”)

MCPO Casebook - Voice Identification

Admissibility Suggestivity in voice identifications: Subject of what is said Suggestivity in voice identifications: Voice identification lineups Sufficiency Voice identification evidence as direct evidence

www.mcpocasebook.com

I think it would be super risky on both sides, but especially for the State. Especially since they have strongly hinted there is more than one person involved.....that voice might not even be RA's voice. Remember when Bursten said something about seeing what's in front of us but not what's going on on this side or that side that makes up the whole picture?

(It's toward the end of the first big press conference: PI: Audio clip can match to suspect's voice)

 

[steeltowngirl]

I think it would be super risky on both sides, but especially for the State. Especially since they have strongly hinted there is more than one person involved.....that voice might not even be RA's voice. Remember when Bursten said something about seeing what's in front of us but not what's going on on this side or that side that makes up the whole picture?

(It's toward the end of the first big press conference: PI: Audio clip can match to suspect's voice)

It has to be BG’s voice. If it’s not RA’s voice, he would be innocent. I have read multiple times from LE that the voice and the photo are the same person. The State may not introduce it, as it is an evolving science and as stated above, likely inadmissible. But even if others are involved, they aren’t BG. RA is on trial for the murder and the State has to prove he’s BG. If they cannot do that, he will walk.

"Please keep in mind that the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls" Carter said. "This is not two people speaking. Please listen to it very, very carefully."

Delphi Murders: ISP says new audio, video and sketch shows Libby & Abby’s killer

Exactly what that information is, and how it is expected to help the investigation is unknown at this time, but Indiana State Police have described it as "significant."

www.wrtv.com

Q. Do investigators believe the bridge photo and voice belong to same person?

A. Yes

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers

jmo

 

[steeltowngirl]

Wonder if Libby got more audio than what has been released.

Sgt. Holeman tells us investigators recovered more audio from Libby’s phone, which was found with the girls at the crime scene.

ISP: More audio recovered from slain Delphi teen's phone

“It does not appear to be anything more than some discussion between the girls. We have only released a portion of it. There are some others we think could help us but again protecting the integrity of the investigation is key so we cannot release everything because there are certain people that know the details and if we release it all then we get into false confessions,” said Sgt. Holeman.

 

[Gemmie]

Sgt. Holeman tells us investigators recovered more audio from Libby’s phone, which was found with the girls at the crime scene.

ISP: More audio recovered from slain Delphi teen's phone

“It does not appear to be anything more than some discussion between the girls. We have only released a portion of it. There are some others we think could help us but again protecting the integrity of the investigation is key so we cannot release everything because there are certain people that know the details and if we release it all then we get into false confessions,” said Sgt. Holeman.

Is it more than we already know though? That article is pretty old.

 

[TTF14]

It has to be BG’s voice. If it’s not RA’s voice, he would be innocent. I have read multiple times from LE that the voice and the photo are the same person. The State may not introduce it, as it is an evolving science and as stated above, likely inadmissible. But even if others are involved, they aren’t BG. RA is on trial for the murder and the State has to prove he’s BG. If they cannot do that, he will walk.

"Please keep in mind that the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls" Carter said. "This is not two people speaking. Please listen to it very, very carefully."

Delphi Murders: ISP says new audio, video and sketch shows Libby & Abby’s killer

Exactly what that information is, and how it is expected to help the investigation is unknown at this time, but Indiana State Police have described it as "significant."

www.wrtv.com

Q. Do investigators believe the bridge photo and voice belong to same person?

A. Yes

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers

jmo

But Carter stopped short of saying RA is "BG." He also said, "We haven't cleared anybody."

And as Bursten said in that very first big presser, this is all very complicated and involved.

IMO, There's definitely stuff "we" do not know, and I firmly believe it's not as simple as just RA was out there, killed the girls on his own, and left. All the word salad by LE supports that, too, in my opinion.

IMO MOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

Is it more than we already know though? That article is pretty old.

View attachment 509887

We already knew there was additional audio recovered, the families heard some of it. Maybe they heard all of it. We just don’t know.

I see now - the OP was likely also meaning what you are saying. That we knew there was additional audio, but we are not sure if there was even more beyond what the families heard.

 

[steeltowngirl]

But Carter stopped short of saying RA is "BG." He also said, "We haven't cleared anybody."

And as Bursten said in that very first big presser, this is all very complicated and involved.

IMO, There's definitely stuff "we" do not know, and I firmly believe it's not as simple as just RA was out there, killed the girls on his own, and left. All the word salad by LE supports that, too, in my opinion.

IMO MOO

Are you feeling that prosecution may submit that RA was involved in the murders, but that he’s not BG? That would shock me.

“ISP Superintendent Carter also reiterates his belief Allen was the man on the bridge, and the man seen in German’s Snapchat video.”

Richard Allen case | Full timeline and events so far

A status hearing held in Fort Wayne on Thursday will allow Judge Francis Gull to address both the defense and prosecution ahead of Richard Allen's jury trial.

www.wthr.com

 

[steeltowngirl]

IMO, There's definitely stuff "we" do not know, and I firmly believe it's not as simple as just RA was out there, killed the girls on his own, and left. All the word salad by LE supports that, too, in my opinion

100 percent agree with with this. Multiple LE have said it over and over, and NM told us too. What is unknown is whether “the others” were at the crime scene and physically killed the girls. Or was it BG alone? Or was it “the others” alone, and BG had left after he guided the girls down the hill?

(I am simply referring to the perp as BG out of respect that you may feel RA is innocent.)

jmo

 

[TTF14]

Are you feeling that prosecution may submit that RA was involved in the murders, but that he’s not BG? That would shock me.

“ISP Superintendent Carter also reiterates his belief Allen was the man on the bridge, and the man seen in German’s Snapchat video.”

Richard Allen case | Full timeline and events so far

A status hearing held in Fort Wayne on Thursday will allow Judge Francis Gull to address both the defense and prosecution ahead of Richard Allen's jury trial.

www.wthr.com

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but that link you posted does not quote Carter directly. Carter hasn't made a statement since the gag order was put in place. As far as I know, the last statement he made was the one I linked, the day of the presser. We got to hear his exact words. The article you posted is a journalist's interpretation of things he has said, but he has never said that publicly that I have heard. You can see from the video I posted, he hedges. I know a lot of people trust MSM to get it right, and indeed it's all we're allowed to post here, but I only take as "fact" words directly from the mouths of LE (or whoever it may be), not a journalist's interpretation or paraphrasing. That's a whole 'nother gripe, probably not for this thread . Again, I'm not arguing with you, just explaining why I believe what I do about Doug Carter's statements.

 

[TTF14]

Are you feeling that prosecution may submit that RA was involved in the murders, but that he’s not BG? That would shock me.

RSBM

That would surprise me, too. I really don't know how they are going to present it, but my personal belief is that even the State doesn't think RA actually wielded the knife that killed the girls (or whatever weapon was used). So, it will be interesting to see how it's presented. I do think there's a grander plan in place. And even then things haven't gone as planned (I'm not completely sold on the theory they thought he'd plea and flip on others, but it's high up there on my list of theories.)

IMO MOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but that link you posted does not quote Carter directly. Carter hasn't made a statement since the gag order was put in place. As far as I know, the last statement he made was the one I linked, the day of the presser. We got to hear his exact words. The article you posted is a journalist's interpretation of things he has said, but he has never said that publicly that I have heard. You can see from the video I posted, he hedges. I know a lot of people trust MSM to get it right, and indeed it's all we're allowed to post here, but I only take as "fact" words directly from the mouths of LE (or whoever it may be), not a journalist's interpretation or paraphrasing. That's a whole 'nother gripe, probably not for this thread . Again, I'm not arguing with you, just explaining why I believe what I do about Doug Carter's statements.

View attachment 509893

Ok. I will keep looking to see if it’s in any of prosecution documents. So my question still is - are you feeling that prosecution will introduce evidence that RA is not BG, yet he is still involved in the murders?

ETA: I see you answered, but I will add that I’ve not seen where defense said RA is not BG? So Carter didn’t say he is and Andy hasn’t said he isn’t. lol

 

[steeltowngirl]

RSBM

That would surprise me, too. I really don't know how they are going to present it, but my personal belief is that even the State doesn't think RA actually wielded the knife that killed the girls (or whatever weapon was used). So, it will be interesting to see how it's presented. I do think there's a grander plan in place. And even then things haven't gone as planned (I'm not completely sold on the theory they thought he'd plea and flip on others, but it's high up there on my list of theories.)

IMO MOO

I likewise don’t believe that defense believes Odinists did it. They said that to create public shock value. To get folks realizing the mistakes that were made in the investigation. They had to go big.

jmo