Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #186

[sunshineray]

I'm not sure of the source of your basics of interlocutory appeals, but they look general enough. Merits of the action would mean issues regarding the murders themselves. Separate would be ancillary issues like decisions on compelling discovery, habeus actions (compelling attendance), jurisdiction and venue issues ... generally just procedural error.

"Insignificant" is your adjective. I won't make a determination on that issue in the instant case because I haven't seen the way Judge Gull is acting towards the parties. Being playful with one side and not with another could rise to the level of an appearance of impropriety; disparate treatment is obviously not something you want from a judge, and I have seen times where a judge is punished for such.

Judges are normally lawyers also, so they must adhere to the Model Rules of Professional Conduct. They also must adhere to the Rules of Judicial Conduct. Here is a link to those rules, specific to Indiana:

Redirecting...

Thanks again for your help, much appreciated.
That basic info was from my neck of the woods at Cornell. I know some legal stuff can differ between states but figured appeals might be more common ground.

interlocutory appeal

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[nadia90]

There were about six million or so white people killed by another white supremacy group back in the 1940's.

It's either the Odens or Bigfoot in this case imo....

 

[StarryStarryNight]

All I could find in the FM was a picture of one of the patches worn by Sgt Robinson and Jones which reads, “I Hate People.” But of course, they are just really nice guys that wouldn’t mistreat RA. (Insert sarcasm font) It also mentions an undercover state trooper familiar with “hate” groups.
FM pg. 119-121

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

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Franks Motion 1, 2, 3, 4 to infinity.
It twisted facts so bad it should have been made of taffy.

That opinion thing

 

[mrjitty]

As I've posted before...

"In a statement obtained by the Muder Sheet podcast, Todd Click, a former assistant chief of police from Rushville, IN, said, “No one in law enforcement believes Abby and Libby were killed in a ritual sacrifice. That is the defense twisting facts for sensationalism.”

Attorneys for Richard Allen want client moved, lay out alternative theory of ‘ritualistic’ murder

DELPHI, Ind. – A ritualistic killing involving cultists. A conspiracy among prison guards. Investigators fixated on a single suspect. Those are among the stunning allegations made in court document…

fox59.com

My main concern with the Franks is that it relied heavily on propensity reasoning, which can lead to a form of logical fallacy

Propensity as Inference
Propensity evidence suggests two inferences that can be a legally relevant form of circumstantial evidence. First, it infers the accused's disposition and state of mind using collateral events. Second, it infers from that disposition that the accused acted in a certain way in the events that make up the subject of the case.

These kinds of inferences can be a powerful investigative tool i.e profiling. This crime scene has occult/pagan staging. Odinism is a type of paganism. These people are Odinists. Therefore maybe these people did it. It enables you to winnow down a target list of people where you can look for actual evidence.

However there is a risk of logical fallacy here. IMO much of what is in the Franks is propensity reasoning. IMO the Facebook posts about sticks and runes are not evidence of a crime, but evidence of disposition, that allegedly makes it more likely these people are the real killers. But that is quite some assumption - first perhaps Turcow will say he can't even conclude the crime scene does have odinist staging. Second, just because someone likes Odinism doesn't mean they want to do a murder. It's a huge leap.

It's interesting to contrast with KAK in that regard. If your theory is sexual motivation - then you have a suspect who is actually connected to the victim in the context of a catfishing crime. That to me is much stronger because you have a real evidential link between suspect and victim, not just disposition/propensity.

But KAK also illustrates the dangers of propensity reasoning. KAK did this other crime, therefore he must have done the murders. "It's too much of a coincidence". That road can lead to fallacy.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

RSBM/BBm
We saw this word “ding dong” interpreted by one of our esteemed members as being “disrespectful” when they thought it was directed at defense but then flipped to “playful” when it was discovered it was directed at prosecution. Nothing else had changed about the phrase, the setting or the speaker of the phrase.
It’s a weak argument for bias by the judge. I hope for their client’s sake they are stronger in their abilities to defend him than they are at proving bias.
This motion was a waste of time and billable hours. I can’t believe the defense team is focusing so much of their limited time and resources in an attempt to get rid of a judge.
all my opinion

Didnt S&L file a safekeeping motion in December and succeed in getting RA transferred to Wabash where he could have access to better mental health resources?
I could be wrong but I seem to believe they were successful at making it happen during their brief appearance.
And I do believe it was necessary considering his mental state.
All my opinion ( and could be wrong)

Regarding your questions about the S&L safekeeping order:

Didnt S&L file a safekeeping motion in December and succeed in getting RA transferred to Wabash where he could have access to better mental health resources?

No. They filed it in Jan while he was incarcerated in Wabash Valley Correctional

01/12/2024

Motion Filed Motion to Transfer Richard Allen Filed By: Allen, Richard M.

I could be wrong but I seem to believe they were successful at making it happen during their brief appearance.

No, they weren't. The judge denied their motion
See the news report I linked

And I do believe it was necessary considering his mental state.

The DOC never gave the reason for the Dec. transfer from Westville to Wabash

All my opinion ( and could be wrong)

No problem. As you pointed out, we all are wrong sometimes.

https://fox59.com/news/indycrime/richard-allen-legal-team-once-again-claims-mistreatment-asks-for-move-from-wabash-valley/

 

[girlhasnoname]

Regarding your questions about the S&L safekeeping order:

No. They filed it in Jan while he was incarcerated in Wabash Valley Correctional

01/12/2024

Motion Filed Motion to Transfer Richard Allen Filed By: Allen, Richard M.

No, they weren't. The judge denied their motion
See the news report I linked

Lebrato filed the RA motion for transfer from Washburn to somewhere else on 1/12/2024 while all the SCOIN hearing/arguments were being waited for. Judge Gull could not rule on any Motions during that time.

The DOC never gave the reason for the Dec. transfer from Westville to Wabash

S&L said RA's IDOC incarceration at Washburn was too long for visitation - a 10 hour round trip. They had less than ideal conditions in which to meet with RA. They keep repeating how much easier it is to visit a Defendant in a County Jail verses IDOC. Apples vs Oranges IMO.

They said RA was being mistreated again, less rec time etc. L&S were trying to get him moved from Washburn to a County Jail.

Richard Allen's attorney request transfer from Wabash Valley Correctional Facility.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Franks Motion 1, 2, 3, 4 to infinity.
It twisted facts so bad it should have been made of taffy.

That opinion thing

It's farcical these FM's. And that latest response sounds like it was drafted by a really, really mad 8 year old.

At this point I truly believe the D knows RA will be found guilty at trial, the State has some serious evidence so no Plea for RA IMO, and are continually mucking up the water just for appeals and an overturned verdict.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Lebrato filed the RA motion for transfer from Washburn to somewhere else on 1/12/2024 while all the SCOIN hearing/arguments were being waited for. Judge Gull could not rule on any Motions during that time.


S&L said RA's IDOC incarceration at Washburn was too long for visitation - a 10 hour round trip. They had less than ideal conditions in which to meet with RA. They keep repeating how much easier it is to visit a Defendant in a County Jail verses IDOC. Apples vs Oranges IMO.

They said RA was being mistreated again, less rec time etc. L&S were trying to get him moved from Washburn to a County Jail.

Richard Allen's attorney request transfer from Wabash Valley Correctional Facility.

MOO

02/08/2024

Order Issued The Court, having taken defendant's Motion to Transfer under advisement, and having reviewed the State's Response to Defense's Motion for Transfer, now denies the Motion to Transfer without hearing. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ

We know why both teams of attys wanted RA transferred from Westville and Wabash.
What we don't know is why the Indiana Department of Corrections moved RA from Westville to Wabash.

Have you seen that explained?

 

[girlhasnoname]

02/08/2024

Order Issued The Court, having taken defendant's Motion to Transfer under advisement, and having reviewed the State's Response to Defense's Motion for Transfer, now denies the Motion to Transfer without hearing. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ

Yes, Judge Gull ruled on this Motion after the SCOIN hearing.

We know why both teams of attys wanted RA transferred from Westville and Wabash.
What we don't know is why the Indiana Department of Corrections moved RA from Westville to Wabash.

Have you seen that explained?

No I haven't, I don't think the 'why' has been stated in any MSM source. Allen was moved to the Wabash Valley Correctional Facility on December 6, 2023. I find it ironic though that he was at Washburn a little over a month before he was requesting to be moved again. I didn't think anything could be worse than the horrible treatment (according to the D) that RA received at Westville. I guess I was wrong, as we all can be at times.

I think it may have been a safety issue, mental health issue, or travel inconvenience issue personally. There are many things (under seal, etc.) that we won't know until trial I'm thinking.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

It's farcical these FM's. And that latest response sounds like it was drafted by a really, really mad 8 year old.

At this point I truly believe the D knows RA will be found guilty at trial, the State has some serious evidence so no Plea for RA IMO, and are continually mucking up the water just for appeals and an overturned verdict.

JMO

IMO
Not drafted "by a really, really mad 8 year old." but drafted with the general public in mind; who, according to Google are said to read at a 7th or 8th grade level.

Edited to add a link so folks won't have to Google.

What is readability and why should content editors care about it?

centerforplainlanguage.org

 

[baddogdog]

Is a Bench trial the same as the UK so no jury?

If this is the same and I’m not sure if it is I can’t see the pro RA liking it considering how many here loath Judge Gull.

ETA - sorry if this a stupid question to ask
Moo

It's not a stupid question at all! Yes, it's the same as in the UK; the defendant goes before a judge without a jury present. (There are some cases where three judges preside, but it's far less common.)

 

[Emma Peel]

So ... I'm wondering when the D will subpoena and depose Judge Gull?

 

[FrostedGlass]

So ... I'm wondering when the D will subpoena and depose Judge Gull?

Add this to the "I'm wondering" list
When will she again deny this without a hearing?

05/13/2024

Motion Filed Motion to Vacate Safekeeping Order Filed By: Allen, Richard M.

 

[girlhasnoname]

IMO
Not drafted "by a really, really mad 8 year old." but drafted with the general public in mind; who, according to Google are said to read at a 7th or 8th grade level.

RBBM
Thank goodness for my BS and MBA. I don't think the people on these threads read at a 7/8th grade level either, though I can't speak to your Google statement as I've not seen it.

JMO

 

[Emma Peel]

Add this to the "I'm wondering" list
When will she again deny this without a hearing?

05/13/2024

Motion Filed Motion to Vacate Safekeeping Order Filed By: Allen, Richard M.

I think she's lost that option. JMHO.

 

[girlhasnoname]

So ... I'm wondering when the D will subpoena and depose Judge Gull?

I don't believe that will ever happen for many reasons. JMO

 

[mrjitty]

If anyone is interested in a case where Judge as a witness/recusal issues are arising for real, the Young * RICO case in Georgia is the case for you (websleuths thread)

tldr/OT; the Judge held an exparte hearing concerning a cooperating state witness who he had jailed for contempt because he was refusing to testify. The ex parte meeting was not disclosed to the defence. Allegedly the Judge and DA leaned on the witness who then agreed to testify. Now the defence wants to cross the witness, and is saying the Judge is compromised because Judge coerced the witness.

IMO - maybe of interest to some to compare and contrast.

 

[FrostedGlass]

RBBM
Thank goodness for my BS and MBA. I don't think the people on these threads read at a 7/8th grade level either, though I can't speak to your Google statement as I've not seen it.

JMO

Googling is pretty easy no matter what level of education you have.

What level does the general public read at 2021 - Google Search

AI Overview
Learn more…Opens in new tab

According to The Literacy Project, the average American reads at a 7th- to 8th-grade level, which is equivalent to 12 to 14 years old. This level is often used as a benchmark for written guidelines in the medical industry.

Here's another one

What is readability and why should content editors care about it?

centerforplainlanguage.org

 

[Emma Peel]

I'm wondering the breadth of the deposition questions the D will ask Judge Gull?

 

[Emma Peel]

If anyone is interested in a case where Judge as a witness/recusal issues are arising for real, the Young * RICO case in Georgia is the case for you (websleuths thread)

tldr/OT; the Judge held an exparte hearing concerning a cooperating state witness who he had jailed for contempt because he was refusing to testify. The ex parte meeting was not disclosed to the defence. Allegedly the Judge and DA leaned on the witness who then agreed to testify. Now the defence wants to cross the witness, and is saying the Judge is compromised because Judge coerced the witness.

IMO - maybe of interest to some to compare and contrast.

"for real" ?

But yes. Similar principles.

I'm wondering if ex parte discussions/meetings Judge Gull has held with the State undisclosed to the Defense will be revealed when she becomes a witness. Holeman, McLeland, the leak panic, and now Leazenby.

Judge Gull is beset by the appearance of bias due to weak boundaries, weak legal briefing, vague or cryptic commentary/directives (read between the lines ding dong) and weak docket management/hygiene.

JMHO