Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[Arkay]

ETA I am curious, are you implying that if RA's DNA is not at the crime scene it means LE can't believe RA killed Abby and Libby? Because that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Crime scenes are left without DNA from killers all the time and yet convictions can and do still happen. JMO

I wonder if RA did not SA them because he was aware of semen being identified as his, but overlooked the less conspicuous ways he could have left DNA on them or at the crime scene.

And, I suppose, unfortunately gratified some sexual compulsion by forcing them into various states of undress.

Just my speculation.

 

[photographer4]

62 confessions, perhaps.

They didn’t have those when the arrested him so I guess must be something from before those happened. Moo.

 

[Vaderman]

They didn’t have those when the arrested him so I guess must be something from before those happened. Moo.

Fair point. I hope they do have the goods on him and no room for ambiguity. No endless debates and pain for the families.

 

[photographer4]

Fair point. I hope they do have the goods on him and no room for ambiguity. No endless debates and pain for the families.

I think no matter what they have there will be an appeal on conviction. The D seem to have laid a lot of foundation for this already imo. I also think it’s never really gonna be a completely closed case for the loved ones. Mooo.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I wonder if RA did not SA them because he was aware of semen being identified as his, but overlooked the less conspicuous ways he could have left DNA on them or at the crime scene.

And, I suppose, unfortunately gratified some sexual compulsion by forcing them into various states of undress.

Just my speculation.

Well, there is a hint of something that occurred.

When Perlmutter was asked why she thought it was a ritualistic sacrifice, one of the reasons was because "there was no sexual assault." NMc asked if she was aware that a sexually motivated crime does not always become obvious through autopsy reports.

That makes me shudder. It adds another layer of depravity on top of something that is already so dark.

Page 58 of Perlmutter testimony

JMO

 

[WildHuncher]

If they don’t have RA’s dna at the scene then how do they reckon he killed them? Given the charges I imagine they probably don’t think he did but will get him because he probably helped in some way (eg: perhaps got them off the bridge). Moooo

I boggle. He put himself closer than any other known party in time and space to the place and time where BG said “Down the hill.” He put himself in the right clothing to be BG. He had no explanation for a cartridge that seems to uniquely match his gun lying between the dead victims on a parcel of land he supposedly never visited.

So for sure he got them off the bridge. So now we consider that there are vastly more sex killings by lone males than ritual murders by groups of neo-pagans. The D itself happily avers that RA has no connection to such groups.

He would IMHO be the absolute no-brainer odds-on Occam’s Razor favorite for the role of the killer, with pretty much nobody at all in second place.

ETA:
I long believed RA likely had a connection to KK’s catfishing group. LE just isn’t going there, and I’m sure they must have tried to make the link.

 

[Melted]

It is a pretty good clue that she was probably dead pretty soon after the step counter stopped counting.

First there was the video page of BG, then the audio clip of the voice saying 'Guys, down the hill' ...

...then the girls say 'GUN' .......

and the next evidence for the detectives to look at is the step tracker---they already know that a strange man seemed to follow them, order them off the bridge and down the hill, and he had a gun on them...

so at that point, the step tracker is telling them what happened next...they walked at gunpoint for 18 minutes....

So what evidence do they have that the girls were dead when the phone stopped counting steps?

---the bodies were eventually found, deceased' approximately 18 minutes away.
---Neither of the girls answered, or made, any texts or calls after that time
---the phone did not detect any more steps or movement
---Blood evidence shows the girls were killed at that location
---No witnesses saw the 2 girls leaving the area, but someone did see RA leaving the area
---they probably have a TOD window which corroborates the timeline


I think they can use that step counter to corroborate their timeline. IMO

The 18 minutes actually raises a lot of questions for me. The distance from where they were abducted to where they were found is .14 miles.

I wonder what took 18 minutes.

I wonder so many things, I really hope this goes to trial in October

 

[shonyakay]

ETA:
I long believed RA likely had a connection to KK’s catfishing group. LE just isn’t going there, and I’m sure they must have tried to make the link.

ISP detective David Vito's testimony at the recent hearing clears that up. Has his testimony transcript been released yet?
He did an investigation and found no connection, digital or otherwise, between RA and KK.

Edited: Because I thought Vito was with the FBI for some reason lol. I corrected it.

 

[justtrish]

The 18 minutes actually raises a lot of questions for me. The distance from where they were abducted to where they were found is .14 miles.

I wonder what took 18 minutes.

I wonder so many things, I really hope this goes to trial in October

When the trial comes we should be able to learn how many steps were taken each of those 18 minutes and that might give us a very good idea of what happened. If it was several minutes of walking slowish and then a pause/stop for a few minutes or really slow moving maybe that is when they were crossing the water.. or if there was a period of lots of steps moving very quickly it might indicate she tried to run. What we do know is when the video ends and when her phone never moves again. He may have tried to walk them up the stream a ways to find a more shallow spot.. or maybe he walked them down the driveway/road and then something spooked him.. so he decided to go toward the water.. I am not sure if directional movement of the phone is something they can tell or just the steps.. I am sure we will learn about all this at the trial.

 

[m00c0w]

I boggle. He put himself closer than any other known party in time and space to the place and time where BG said “Down the hill.” He put himself in the right clothing to be BG. He had no explanation for a cartridge that seems to uniquely match his gun lying between the dead victims on a parcel of land he supposedly never visited.

So for sure he got them off the bridge. So now we consider that there are vastly more sex killings by lone males than ritual murders by groups of neo-pagans. The D itself happily avers that RA has no connection to such groups.

He would IMHO be the absolute no-brainer odds-on Occam’s Razor favorite for the role of the killer, with pretty much nobody at all in second place.

ETA:
I long believed RA likely had a connection to KK’s catfishing group. LE just isn’t going there, and I’m sure they must have tried to make the link.

Technically, they don’t have to prove RA killed them, just that he kidnapped them and they were killed in connection to the kidnapping. Specifics aren’t actually that relevant for the felony murder statute he’s been charged with.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

I pulled this out of your post for focus:
"so at that point, the step tracker is telling them what happened next...they walked at gunpoint for 18 minutes...."

The accuracy rating for my mapping skills is at 0; do you know how far those girls might have walked in 18 minutes and a range of where that might have taken them?

No, I sure don't, but I'm pretty sure the investigators do. And logic would say that even if they map out the whole range, the location of the kill site would be a solid clue as to where they walked to at gunpoint. IMO

 

[katydid23]

The 18 minutes actually raises a lot of questions for me. The distance from where they were abducted to where they were found is .14 miles.

I wonder what took 18 minutes.

I wonder so many things, I really hope this goes to trial in October

I'm sure there were detours, short stops, and speed bumps along the way. Maybe thy took the long way around or he started going one way and heard voices so he turned back the other way?

 

[Melted]

I'm sure there were detours, short stops, and speed bumps along the way. Maybe thy took the long way around or he started going one way and heard voices so he turned back the other way?

Maybe

 

[Vern]

D-24

 

[Dre]

Technically, they don’t have to prove RA killed them, just that he kidnapped them and they were killed in connection to the kidnapping. Specifics aren’t actually that relevant for the felony murder statute he’s been charged with.

JMO

I truly feel this is all they can prove, but is all it takes for who is responsible for bringing them to such a horrible death. I do believe others are getting away with this, and it makes me very uncomfortable!

 

[shonyakay]

I truly feel this is all they can prove, but is all it takes for who is responsible for bringing them to such a horrible death. I do believe others are getting away with this, and it makes me very uncomfortable!

I am of the belief that RA acted alone. No one else involved at all.

I believe a sexually motivated crime was premeditated by RA without knowing his future victim(s).
I believe when RA seen Abby and Libby walking toward the bridge he made his move.
He approached them with a gun amd made them go down the hill. At some point he made them take off their clothes. At one point, Abby was unclothed from the waist down and Libby was eventually totally unclothed. At some point they crossed the creek. I believe at some point RA lost control of the situation, OR realized after what he did (kidnapping them and making them take off their clothes) he couldn't leave them alive, and brutally killed them. I believe he inflicted their fatal wounds with his work place issued box cutter.

LE can't place anyone at the scene of the crime except RA. ISP Detective Vito testified to this at the latest hearings.

 

[girlhasnoname]

In regards to the timeframe of the crime?
LE specifically gave the timeframe of 2:30 p.m. to 3:30 p.m. as to when the girls' were killed.
I am sure they didn't just randomly pick that timeframe.

It's possible RA did lie to DD when he says he left at 3:30 p.m., whether in his car or from the trails, because he knows a witness (SC) potentially saw him in disarray just right after that timeframe at 3:57 p.m.

However he didn't need to lie about the earlier timeframe (1:30 to 3:30 p.m.) in 2017 because he didn't know yet what Libby's phone would reveal.

DD's notation in the PCA stated RA said he was on the trail from 1:30 pm to 3:30 pm military time.

<snipped>

Allen was on the trail between 1330-1530. He parked at the old Farm Bureau building and walked to the new Freedom Bridge.

Court documents released in Delphi murder case: Read the probable cause affidavit here

 

[girlhasnoname]

Frank's Motions are written with the goal of getting a search warrant or certain evidence thrown out of trial.( If I am understanding correctly)

"The defense will not be granted a hearing unless it can identify arguably reliable evidence supporting its claim that the person who signed the warrant affidavit intentionally or recklessly included false facts in the document. "

I seriously have lost count of the number of FM's filed by the defense , but I believe that it is 4.

After 4 attempts, I tend to believe that the Search warrant didn't have any false information.

I have to ask why the issues of DNA and phone records would be in question regarding the actual search warrant? Would that not be a separate issue for trial and not needed to obtain said right to search Allen's property?



If Liggett and Holeman were directed to ONLY speak to the evidence preceding the SW, then that would explain why ( at that time) there was no DNA or electronic connection. At least at that time.

Was this evidence found during the search itself, hence the desperation to get the search warrant tossed?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox59....-against-richard-allen-in-delphi-murders/amp/
https://www.tpatrialattorneys.com/franks-motion-federal-cases/

I've said all along that for the D teams's factually innocent client RA, why have they so DESPERATELY tried to get the SW tossed (Franks 1,2,3,4,)?

Because there is something in there that irrefutably ties RA to the crime.

IMO

 

[mrjitty]

When the trial comes we should be able to learn how many steps were taken each of those 18 minutes and that might give us a very good idea of what happened. If it was several minutes of walking slowish and then a pause/stop for a few minutes or really slow moving maybe that is when they were crossing the water.. or if there was a period of lots of steps moving very quickly it might indicate she tried to run. What we do know is when the video ends and when her phone never moves again. He may have tried to walk them up the stream a ways to find a more shallow spot.. or maybe he walked them down the driveway/road and then something spooked him.. so he decided to go toward the water.. I am not sure if directional movement of the phone is something they can tell or just the steps.. I am sure we will learn about all this at the trial.

Agreed

I don't think the State case will be that focussed on the journey.

The key is where they started, and where they ended, which took 18 minutes. Then the phone doesn't move again. Which is circumstantial evidence allowing time of death to be approximated, at least for the victim holding the phone.

I can walk around my kitchen for 18 minutes cleaning up, then go to bed. You get steps, but i went nowhere. Steps themselves don't mean they were going somewhere for 18 mins. For all we know, they reached in in 10, but were still moving for another 8.

 

[mrjitty]

I truly feel this is all they can prove, but is all it takes for who is responsible for bringing them to such a horrible death. I do believe others are getting away with this, and it makes me very uncomfortable!

Personally if it were proven to me RA was bridge guy, I'd be quite happy to reach the logical and obvious inference that Bridge Guy murdered the girls, based on what I know already. I do not see any reasonable doubt there.

MOO