Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[FrostedGlass]

Respectfully,

…The case is under a gag order, NMcL is not supposed to be telling us anything. Why the defense hasn’t been sanctioned for this is mystifying to me.
…The defense has slyly and underhandedly violated the gag order by revealing things through motions that they know are open to the public.
…Most of the things revealed through defense motions have been exposed as misleading or complete fabrications by sworn testimony. That information can, in no way, be defined as letting people know about this case, because it’s a bunch of lies.
…Thanks to the defense, crime scene photos of these precious children are floating around unfettered on the internet.
…If it wasn’t for the defense, this trial would be over.

My opinion

Thank you for sharing your opinion with me.

Here's the link to attorney disciplinary action.

Attorney Discipline Decisions and Pending Cases

www.in.gov

 

[photographer4]

It’s my opinion that Cicero was brought on by the state mainly to support the motion in limine. The MIL was filed in April, which is when Cicero said he began work. The state likely saw that after repeated Franks motions full of half truths and misleading statements that the defense would not be reasonable and they would need to ask the court to specifically restrict certain talking points. A key step towards discrediting the defense’s theory was getting the “rune” on the tree debunked. That’s what Cicero was for. It’s less that they rushed to get something done because they felt exposed, they were probably just tired of having to wade through the ridiculous theories, speculation, and misstatements and decided to just make the defense put their money where their mouths were, so to speak.

All my opinion.

I read Cicero’s testimony transcript earlier today. He was on the case as of Feb 2024 according to him and the State.

The other interesting thing I noticed was he didn’t actually know how big LG’s hand was. I think he made the assessment that the print was made by her based on dna per the transcript which is fine - but was interesting to read about for me. Adobe Acrobat

 

[m00c0w]

I read Cicero’s testimony transcript earlier today. He was on the case as of Feb 2024 according to him and the State.

The other interesting thing I noticed was he didn’t actually know how big LG’s hand was. I think he made the assessment that the print was made by her based on dna per the transcript which is fine - but was interesting to read about for me. Adobe Acrobat

Sorry, was confusing when he went to the crime scene and when he started. Either way, I think his main role was to support disproving the “rune” tree as part of an overarching plan to get the Odinism stuff thrown out. Seems to have worked.

JMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

Sorry, was confusing when he went to the crime scene and when he started. Either way, I think his main role was to support disproving the “rune” tree as part of an overarching plan to get the Odinism stuff thrown out. Seems to have worked.

JMO

It worked for the trial, but here we all are, still talking about a bloody handprint that may look like a rune, if we look real close, squint, then use a ton of imagination.

A whole lotta hullaboo, imo.
So they didn’t measure her hand before she was buried.
It is still Libby’s blood.

If it’s her handprint, RA isn’t magically found guilty.
If it’s an F, an upside down L, or qwerty, RA isn’t magically innocent.
Maybe he wiped his glove on the tree.
Maybe he was finger-painting.

Most likely, it is blood from Libby’s hand as she tried to steady herself in her final moments of life.

That is an image in my mind that I can’t unsee.
An image that jurors will also see in their mind’s eye.

jmo

 

[shonyakay]

to me the question to Holeman about why did "you guys" wait so long to get a blood spatter expert is a weird question. Several instances where the same basic question was asked.

The suggestion by the DT in asking these questions is that somehow investigators should have known prior to RA's arrest and long AFTER investigators had moved away from the whole was this a ritual sacrifice? part of their investigation that the DT would be trying an Odin defense and should have anticipated that and gotten a blood patter expert way back then.

As to the "alleged" questions asked of Ligget about timeline of the case and whether it was fatal to the prosecutions of any of the witnesses didn't see RA that day, that would seem to be a question better suited for prosecutors rather than the investigator. But then, Prosecution wasn't being deposed and so they tried to get the answers they wanted to hear and Ligget wasn't having it. NOTE this section of the motion contains this qualifier: The deposition has not yet been transcribed, so the defense cannot be certain as to the exact questions formed at the deposition, but the questions certified were to the effect of a-d below, or (if answered) would have led to questions similar to a-d below

seriously they are asking that someone provide a certified answer to questions they are pretty sure they asked but cannot prove they asked because the transcript isn't ready and so they are approximating and paraphrasing?? that is bizarre to me

I think that maybe the blood spatter questions relate to the DT's prior claims that there was an "F" rune purposefully placed in blood on that tree.
My take is that the DT are probably asking why did the state get a blood spatter expert this late in the game, to solely try and refute the DT's claims of that supposed rune?

 

[katydid23]

in light of the rennovations to trails and bridge in the intervening years, the logistics of illustrating to the jury how the girls and RA were on teh bridge and he then walked them "down the hill" may be difficut to convey. I think it best if the jury is taken into the scene by means of the RL property and backtrack from there to where the bridge and suggested route down the hill can be illustrated.

But I do think it a good idea for the jury to see exactly where the girls ended, and the area around that scene and alleged route to arrive at it. It will give them a good idea of now many people might have been present on the surrounding trails, what viewpoints are available and were available to the various witnesses in a way that illustrations and crime scene computerize reenactments may not. JMO

But if it is made public that the jurors and both teams of attorneys and the judge are going to visit the crime scene, won't it attract sightseers and looky-lous to the area?

 

[sunshineray]

I think they are doing a good job actually. They’re raising issues with the trial process and deposition responses or lack thereof are part of that imo.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

[Spartygirl]

Does anyone know if the procecution asked to have the modifications to the bridge delayed until after the trial? I feel like it would have been important for jurors to see how it actually was at the time of the murders.

The renovation of the bridge began after Libby & Abby were murdered there.

The article is BEFORE RA was arrested**

The McCain brothers were a huge part in getting this renovation completed.
( AKA- FSG=McCain) Dan McCain, president of Delphi Historic Trails.

DELPHI, Ind. – More than $1.2 million from a $90 million trail initiative announced Thursday by Gov. Eric Holcomb will go toward rehabbing the Monon High Bridge Trail, including the abandoned rail trestle over Deer Creek near Delphi.

$1.2M to restore Monon High Bridge trail, scene in Delphi teens’ murder

Monon High Bridge gained national notoriety in the murders of Delphi teens Libby German and Abby Williams. A $1.2 state grant intends to renovate it as a trail

www.jconline.com

 

[shonyakay]

I think that maybe the blood spatter questions relate to the DT's prior claims that there was an "F" rune purposefully placed in blood on that tree.
My take is that the DT are probably asking why did the state get a blood spatter expert this late in the game, to solely try and refute the DT's claims of that supposed rune?

I guess I need to start reading until the end of the thread. Looks like you guys already covered this.

Just want to clarify this comment of mine though.

I was giving my take on what the DT's take might have been in regards to the blood spatter expert's questions in the new motion.

I have never thought there was a "rune" on that tree, or anything else other than blood getting on there in the course of these atrocious crimes.

 

[Spartygirl]

I have pinned where the “old farm bureau building” was before they finished construction on the new one, it was turned into a parking lot

Farm Bureau to build new building - Carroll County Comet

where was it ??
I guess I am not seeing it

 

[Spartygirl]

If jury visitation of the crime scenes is allowed, I think LE should close down the areas of the crime scenes until after a jury visitation. The site could easily be tampered with before the visitation. I am not saying that would happen but anything and everything has happened to delay bringing the case to court by the defense. If budget money is not available to post a guard then cameras should be used to monitor.

Well, and especially if RA goes along for the ride.

It would not be safe for him there, IMO

 

[somequestions]

I think the defense asking for the jury to see the crime scene area is a great move. At the minimum, if it is denied, they can add it to the list of issues for appeal. If it is granted, it gives the jury the chance to come to their own conclusions about Richard Allen's guilt or innocence. I really think if Richard Allen had not confessed, he would probably be found not guilty at trial, even if he actually is the Delphi killer.

However, if somehow Richard Allen actually might be innocent, I would ask the deputy who filed suit to testify. I would want the jury to see the arrest press conference video where the prosecution tried to keep the PCA from being released to the public by claiming it was still an open investigation that could involve others. I would want the jury to watch the press conferences with the sketch releases. I would want the jury to know about the Hoosier Harvest store video surveillance and ask anyone to testify who was physically walking on the trails after 3:57pm. If there was an objection, I would tell the judge that it is our belief LE arrested the wrong man and this is our defense. I forget the terminology for it since I am not a lawyer, but ask the jury to try to "solve" the case at trial by asking the jury to do what LE did not.

But if there are solid confessions, especially ones made by Richard Allen where he said he is the person in Liberty German's video, then this trial will be one long wait for a guilty verdict. I agree that confession will not confuse the jury.

But I think what will confuse the jury the most is how the case was handled. Maybe then the jury comes to the conclusion that they cannot make one.

 

[photographer4]

I think the defense asking for the jury to see the crime scene area is a great move. At the minimum, if it is denied, they can add it to the list of issues for appeal. If it is granted, it gives the jury the chance to come to their own conclusions about Richard Allen's guilt or innocence. I really think if Richard Allen had not confessed, he would probably be found not guilty at trial, even if he actually is the Delphi killer.

However, if somehow Richard Allen actually might be innocent, I would ask the deputy who filed suit to testify. I would want the jury to see the arrest press conference video where the prosecution tried to keep the PCA from being released to the public by claiming it was still an open investigation that could involve others. I would want the jury to watch the press conferences with the sketch releases. I would want the jury to know about the Hoosier Harvest store video surveillance and ask anyone to testify who was physically walking on the trails after 3:57pm. If there was an objection, I would tell the judge that it is our belief LE arrested the wrong man and this is our defense. I forget the terminology for it since I am not a lawyer, but ask the jury to try to "solve" the case at trial by asking the jury to do what LE did not.

But if there are solid confessions, especially ones made by Richard Allen where he said he is the person in Liberty German's video, then this trial will be one long wait for a guilty verdict. I agree that confession will not confuse the jury.

But I think what will confuse the jury the most is how the case was handled. Maybe then the jury comes to the conclusion that they cannot make one.

At this point, the confessions don’t impress me. We don’t know what info he may have learned from LE during interviews or overheard among staff etc at any point (if any). We don’t know how much he learned from disclosure or even from his own lawyers or loved ones. If he made false confessions he wouldn’t be the first to have done so and he surely won’t be the last. I don’t know how many people have confessed over and over again though so I acknowledge there may be that to overcome as well (and I don’t know if that can be overcome really). Moooooo

 

[shonyakay]

However, if somehow Richard Allen actually might be innocent, I would ask the deputy who filed suit to testify. I would want the jury to see the arrest press conference video where the prosecution tried to keep the PCA from being released to the public by claiming it was still an open investigation that could involve others.

Snipped by me:
I'd also want the jury to see Baldwin's response to the prosecution trying to keep the PCA from being released at that particular time due to possible involvement of others.

Baldwin seemed very surprised by that and said something like that was news to him. What? Why was he taken aback by that? Isn't it the DT's supposition that multiple odinists perps are involved? Or is that before that defense strategy took root?

I'll try to locate the news clip with Baldwin's reaction.

 

[shonyakay]

@somequestions
Allen's defense team spoke to the media following the Nov. 22 hearing on whether to publicly release the probable cause affidavit in the Delphi murders case.

During the hearing, the prosecutor revealed his belief that others may be involved in the murders.

"We believe Richard Allen is not the only actor involved in this," Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland said.

"I mean, that's new news," Baldwin said after the hearing.

When asked if that was reflected in the probable cause affidavit, Baldwin replied, "not the PCA that I read."

'He is innocent' | Attorneys for Delphi suspect release statement on client's involvement in murder investigation

Defense lawyers for Richard Allen say their client has tried to help investigators over the five years since Libby German and Abby Williams were killed.

www.wthr.com

 

[shonyakay]

I wasn't looking for anything regarding RA's clothing at the moment but this article does point out that the Defense team says that...

"Allen did not dispose of his guns, car or clothes, all of which were mentioned in court documents, in the five years since the girls' deaths.

'He is innocent' | Attorneys for Delphi suspect release statement on client's involvement in murder investigation

Defense lawyers for Richard Allen say their client has tried to help investigators over the five years since Libby German and Abby Williams were killed.

www.wthr.com

I guess I wasn't totally crazy to think RA kept his clothing he wore that day. Hopefully it yields evidence connecting to him to the crime scene.

 

[Vern]

D-19 ...

 

[mrjitty]

@somequestions
Allen's defense team spoke to the media following the Nov. 22 hearing on whether to publicly release the probable cause affidavit in the Delphi murders case.

During the hearing, the prosecutor revealed his belief that others may be involved in the murders.

"We believe Richard Allen is not the only actor involved in this," Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland said.

"I mean, that's new news," Baldwin said after the hearing.

When asked if that was reflected in the probable cause affidavit, Baldwin replied, "not the PCA that I read."

'He is innocent' | Attorneys for Delphi suspect release statement on client's involvement in murder investigation

Defense lawyers for Richard Allen say their client has tried to help investigators over the five years since Libby German and Abby Williams were killed.

www.wthr.com

Since the hearing we now know why he said this. They were looking to see if RA had any link to a 3rd party suspect. no link was found.

 

[shonyakay]

Since the hearing we now know why he said this. They were looking to see if RA had any link to a 3rd party suspect. no link was found.

I agree in regards to NM. I was only copying and pasting from the article I supplied. I understand the state was being thorough. They had just arrested Allen mere weeks before. I am sure it took time to go through the evidence, conduct interviews etc. to make sure there was no link between RA and KK etc.

I was posting what I did in response to @somequestions about Baldwin's response to the prosecution regarding their statement at the time of the possibility of 3rd party suspects.

"That's new news." - Baldwin

 

[mrjitty]

I agree in regards to NM. I was only copying and pasting from the article I supplied. I understand the state was being thorough. They had just arrested Allen mere weeks before. I am sure it took time to go through the evidence, conduct interviews etc. to make sure there was no link between RA and KK etc.

I was posting what I did in response to @somequestions about Baldwin's response to the prosecution regarding their statement at the time of the possibility of 3rd party suspects.

"That's new news." - Baldwin

Yes. This turns out to be a nothing burger that was discussed at the motion in limine hearing.