Abuse and JonBenet

[quarterhorse_trainer]

JonBenet's neck gives no indication that she was struggling or even conscious while she was being strangled, and when you consider the killer tied the knot and the back of neck and that her long johns were urine-stained in the crotch and in the front, it sounds to me like she was strangled facedown from behind, and she did not struggle against her killer at all.[/QUOTE

Interesting, even in death JBR had a wetting-problem. How ironic...

 

[DeeDee249]

JonBenet's neck gives no indication that she was struggling or even conscious while she was being strangled, and when you consider the killer tied the knot and the back of neck and that her long johns were urine-stained in the crotch and in the front, it sounds to me like she was strangled facedown from behind, and she did not struggle against her killer at all.[/QUOTE

Interesting, even in death JBR had a wetting-problem. How ironic...

Actually, this doesn't indicate a "wetting problem". Rather, it was a postmortem release of urine caused by the relaxation of the bladder muscles. It occurs in every person at the time of death. If there are feces in he rectum, the sphincter muscles will do the same, releasing feces at the time of death. In JB's case, her fecal matter was not down that far in her digestive tract, and was still higher up in the intestines. It had not progressed to the point where it was about to be excreted. The coroner made note of this in the autopsy.
When a person dies, a condition called "primary flaccidity" occurs, where all the muscles in the body simultaneously relax. That is why JB's clothing were urine-stained.

 

[quarterhorse_trainer]

Thanks Dave for the welcome. I have been so engrosed in the CMA case from day one, funny that it led me here, to JBR, and a parent who would kill a child so dotedupon and pampered with everything material... All the beautiful photos, gifts, toys and adulation, then sudden death, it's totally unreal. How could a parent be so adoring, and then kill that child. Weird huh, but the cases are very similar. Jealousy & sexual abuse highlight each case.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I just read something that I find curious. It was in Patsy and John's 2000 interview with Larry King: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/27/lkl.00.html


KING: If it was a pedophile, was your daughter sexually abused?
P. RAMSEY: I don't believe there is conclusive evidence of that.

What?????? Did she not consider that paintbrush handle sexual abuse? This woman was so focused on the whole world believing that JB was never molested that she can't even keep up with what the interviewer is asking. He was not asking whether she was abused before that night. He was asking did the pedophile/killer abuse her. I don't know that I believe JB was molested before that night, but that pb handle is molestation in anybody's book.

 

[MurriFlower]

I just read something that I find curious. It was in Patsy and John's 2000 interview with Larry King: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/27/lkl.00.html


KING: If it was a pedophile, was your daughter sexually abused?
P. RAMSEY: I don't believe there is conclusive evidence of that.

What?????? Did she not consider that paintbrush handle sexual abuse? This woman was so focused on the whole world believing that JB was never molested that she can't even keep up with what the interviewer is asking. He was not asking whether she was abused before that night. He was asking did the pedophile/killer abuse her. I don't know that I believe JB was molested before that night, but that pb handle is molestation in anybody's book.

What????????? You cannot read??????? If you had bothered to read more than two lines, (which served your purpose) you would know that at the time this interview occurred, the R's had not even been given a copy of the Autopsy Report. How would they have any idea about the paintbrush handle?? Lets put it into context shall we? :

"KING: If it was a pedophile, was your daughter sexually abused?
P. RAMSEY: I don't believe there is conclusive evidence of that.
J. RAMSEY: We don't know.
KING: Have you talked to them about -- do they send you the autopsy reports?
J. RAMSEY: No, no.
P. RAMSEY: No.
J. RAMSEY: We've -- the police have not talked to us at all. We don't know what's been done.
KING: Well, they have questioned you, right?
J. RAMSEY: They have questioned us extensively.
KING: But they haven't told you anything about -- you have not seen the death certificate?
J. RAMSEY: No.
P. RAMSEY: No.
KING: You don't know how your daughter died?
P. RAMSEY: Well, we do.
J. RAMSEY: We do.
P. RAMSEY: From what we...
J. RAMSEY: She was strangled.
KING: That's the cause of death, strangulation?
J. RAMSEY: That's the cause of death.
KING: But you don't know if any sexual activity took place?
J. RAMSEY: It's not clear to me that there was. We don't know. It's one of those questions you don't want to know the answer to, frankly.

"

 

[OneLove]

What????????? You cannot read??????? If you had bothered to read more than two lines, (which served your purpose) you would know that at the time this interview occurred, the R's had not even been given a copy of the Autopsy Report. How would they have any idea about the paintbrush handle?? Lets put it into context shall we? :

"KING: If it was a pedophile, was your daughter sexually abused?
P. RAMSEY: I don't believe there is conclusive evidence of that.
J. RAMSEY: We don't know.
KING: Have you talked to them about -- do they send you the autopsy reports?
J. RAMSEY: No, no.
P. RAMSEY: No.
J. RAMSEY: We've -- the police have not talked to us at all. We don't know what's been done.
KING: Well, they have questioned you, right?
J. RAMSEY: They have questioned us extensively.
KING: But they haven't told you anything about -- you have not seen the death certificate?
J. RAMSEY: No. P. RAMSEY: No.
KING: You don't know how your daughter died?
P. RAMSEY: Well, we do.
J. RAMSEY: We do.
P. RAMSEY: From what we...
J. RAMSEY: She was strangled.
KING: That's the cause of death, strangulation?
J. RAMSEY: That's the cause of death.
KING: But you don't know if any sexual activity took place?
J. RAMSEY: It's not clear to me that there was. We don't know. It's one of those questions you don't want to know the answer to, frankly.

"

I am speechless. How long was this AFTER JB's death?

I cannot even fathom not wanting to know how and WHY my own child was murdered. Especially since there was a 'field' of possible murderers.

So the whole time they were throwing out names of people they knew as possible murderers, they didn't want to know if one of those people had sexually abused their daughter? If it happened during the commission of her murder, wouldn't they want to know if it had been going on under their own noses for some time? :waitasec:

 

[OneLove]

I just read something that I find curious. It was in Patsy and John's 2000 interview with Larry King: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/27/lkl.00.html


KING: If it was a pedophile, was your daughter sexually abused?
P. RAMSEY: I don't believe there is conclusive evidence of that.

What?????? Did she not consider that paintbrush handle sexual abuse? This woman was so focused on the whole world believing that JB was never molested that she can't even keep up with what the interviewer is asking. He was not asking whether she was abused before that night. He was asking did the pedophile/killer abuse her. I don't know that I believe JB was molested before that night, but that pb handle is molestation in anybody's book.

Hmmm...I guess IF she somehow used that handle herself or knew of someone else in the family that might have, she would want to steer the world away from that line of thought.

 

[BBB167893]

I am speechless. How long was this AFTER JB's death?

I cannot even fathom not wanting to know how and WHY my own child was murdered. Especially since there was a 'field' of possible murderers.

So the whole time they were throwing out names of people they knew as possible murderers, they didn't want to know if one of those people had sexually abused their daughter? If it happened during the commission of her murder, wouldn't they want to know if it had been going on under their own noses for some time? :waitasec:

You don't understand, OneLove. We're not SUPPOSED to ask those questions.

 

[OneLove]

Has anyone theorized this: That after snacks and bedtime activities, Patsy stayed up late to pack, maybe already aggravated at being left to do this alone, maybe aggravated at being embarassed that her daughter was showing signs of individuality and separatness when Patsy wanted her to be "best friends and twins". Patsy went to take JonBenet for her "late" pottybreak and found her to have already wet her bed and clothes she was already dressed nicely in for the morning trip. In a huff, Patsy dragged her off to the bathroom to angrily change her clothes and then to the basement, maybe for "corporal punishment", maybe to make JB sleep there as punishment, or maybe because they were arguing loudly and keeping JB and brother from sleeping. Patsy grabs the flashlight on the way down because the lights in the basement are hard to find in the dark/are unreliable, she is still yanking JB because she JB is still fighting and arguing, all the while Patsy gets madder and madder. Maybe even JB is saying she wants that blanket that's in the suitcase and is having a temper tantrum about it and they are going to get it. For whatever reason, they are headed for the basement, with Patsy on the edge of true madness for alot of (justifiable) reasons and JB is being very temperamental. Once in the basement, JB mouths off something that sets Patsy off her rocker, and with no one there to hear or monitor, her split-second impulse is to slap her HARD, forgetting a big flashlight was even in her hand until the sound of light against bone. Maybe JB howled, maybe after that she continued to cry in pain, whimper, hold her head, and being in the moment of madness, Patsy just wanted her to SHUT UP. Maybe Patsy felt like JB was being too DRAMATIC to deal with. Maybe PR said "shut up or I'll shut you up". Maybe she did, meaning only to cut off her oxygen long enough to stop her "temper tantrum" (as perceived by Patsy) in its tracks. Maybe she waited for the "relaxation" (as perceived by Patsy) of JonBenet and then let go. Maybe she thought of it as a non-prescription medication/sedative of sorts. Maybe after she let go and waited for JonBenet to "come-to", she was puzzled when she didn't. Maybe all else followed on the heels of that.

I tend to think they tried to get her body into the suitcase first for secreting away on the plane out of Dodge. That just didn't work. The RN was already written before the suitcase didn't work out, so they staged the body and hoped someone else would find it. They didn't realize in the rush and adrenaline of setting up the finale that the ransom note AND a dead body left in the basement were conflicting scenarios. Brains tend to go a little blinky under stress.

Just my opinion.

 

[joeskidbeck]

What????????? You cannot read??????? If you had bothered to read more than two lines, (which served your purpose) you would know that at the time this interview occurred, the R's had not even been given a copy of the Autopsy Report. How would they have any idea about the paintbrush handle?? Lets put it into context shall we? :

"KING: If it was a pedophile, was your daughter sexually abused?
P. RAMSEY: I don't believe there is conclusive evidence of that.
J. RAMSEY: We don't know.
KING: Have you talked to them about -- do they send you the autopsy reports?
J. RAMSEY: No, no.
P. RAMSEY: No.
J. RAMSEY: We've -- the police have not talked to us at all. We don't know what's been done.
KING: Well, they have questioned you, right?
J. RAMSEY: They have questioned us extensively.
KING: But they haven't told you anything about -- you have not seen the death certificate?
J. RAMSEY: No.
P. RAMSEY: No.
KING: You don't know how your daughter died?
P. RAMSEY: Well, we do.
J. RAMSEY: We do.
P. RAMSEY: From what we...
J. RAMSEY: She was strangled.
KING: That's the cause of death, strangulation?
J. RAMSEY: That's the cause of death.
KING: But you don't know if any sexual activity took place?
J. RAMSEY: It's not clear to me that there was. We don't know. It's one of those questions you don't want to know the answer to, frankly.

"

Wow! Do you know how revealing it is that YOU got more upset about JB being molested than either Patsy or her mother, Nedra? This was the year 2000 and I don't care how stupid you might think I am and I don't care if you want to wear blinders, but if you believe that in almost FOUR YEARS the Ramseys had not heard about that, you are being naive. Besides, they knew fully well what the autopsy report said. Better than anyone.

 

[DeeDee249]

Sorry- I gotta completely rule out stuffing her in the suitcase for the trip. Can you imagine what she'd look like when "unpacked"? Ever smell a dead body? I have. It starts pretty quickly with no refrigeration. By the time she was "found" about 12 hours after death, she already had an "odor of decAY". No way would they take her on the plane. And do what with her? Toss her out of the plane? No. A dead body SEEPS without refrigeration(sometimes even with it) after a while, certainly by the time they'd get to Charlevoix . Seeps out of the suitcase. It's horrific.
There would be no way to explain where she was to the rest of the family (BR, and JR's grown children meeting them) or the pilot. If they said she'd been kidnapped well, then...why are you on vacation?
I just can't make sense of anyone in the family putting her body on the plane in a suitcase.

Plus livor mortis indicated she was not moved. If she was put in the suitcase first (or freezer or anywhere else) there would be a different livor pattern on the body.

Also, I don't know why Patsy (or any other family member) would need to go into the basement to retrieve the blanket from the dryer using the flashlight. The basement had lights. The flashlight needed to be used after she was killed, though. Neighbors might have noted if the lights were on, and actually, neighbors did make reports about lights being on or off that was not usual and the moving lights that were probably someone walking with the flashlight. Someone might have seen them walking around in the house in rooms that had no shades (like the kitchen window over the sink) with the lights on. It wasn't THAT late. People might still be up.

 

[OneLove]

Wow! Do you know how revealing it is that YOU got more upset about JB being molested than either Patsy or her mother, Nedra? This was the year 2000 and I don't care how stupid you might think I am and I don't care if you want to wear blinders, but if you believe that in almost FOUR YEARS the Ramseys had not heard about that, you are being naive. Besides, they knew fully well what the autopsy report said. Better than anyone.

So I suppose this really HIGHLIGHTS how hard that family tried to birdwalk people away from the sexual abuse subject.

Waaay back in the day, working with social services and then specifically with teenage girls in crisis, I used to see alot of families with sexual abuse/incest issues. And, uhmm, this degree of family secrecy/denial would raise alarms among professionals in the field even way back then.

 

[BBB167893]

Wow! Do you know how revealing it is that YOU got more upset about JB being molested than either Patsy or her mother, Nedra?

:clap:

This was the year 2000 and I don't care how stupid you might think I am and I don't care if you want to wear blinders, but if you believe that in almost FOUR YEARS the Ramseys had not heard about that, you are being naive.

Tom Haney told her flat-out two years earlier!

 

[MurriFlower]

I am speechless. How long was this AFTER JB's death?

I cannot even fathom not wanting to know how and WHY my own child was murdered. Especially since there was a 'field' of possible murderers.

So the whole time they were throwing out names of people they knew as possible murderers, they didn't want to know if one of those people had sexually abused their daughter? If it happened during the commission of her murder, wouldn't they want to know if it had been going on under their own noses for some time? :waitasec:

So, just run by me how they were going to find out this information if the investigators denied it to them? Read the tabloids perhaps?

As to whether they wanted to know about the sexual abuse, perhaps it was just a case of their daughter was murdered by being head bashed and strangled. Wasn't this enough pain to bear? Did they perhaps want to dwell on her being tortured sexually as well??

 

[WHITEFANG]

Wow! Do you know how revealing it is that YOU got more upset about JB being molested than either Patsy or her mother, Nedra? This was the year 2000 and I don't care how stupid you might think I am and I don't care if you want to wear blinders, but if you believe that in almost FOUR YEARS the Ramseys had not heard about that, you are being naive. Besides, they knew fully well what the autopsy report said. Better than anyone.

KING: But you don't know if any sexual activity took place?
J. RAMSEY: It's not clear to me that there was. We don't know. It's one of those questions you don't want to know the answer to, frankly.

As a grieving father, I would prefer to know every gory detail that my daughter suffered through as her head was bashed in and she was strangled to death. I would want to dream of those images every night and day for ever.

 

[OneLove]

So, just run by me how they were going to find out this information if the investigators denied it to them? Read the tabloids perhaps?

As to whether they wanted to know about the sexual abuse, perhaps it was just a case of their daughter was murdered by being head bashed and strangled. Wasn't this enough pain to bear? Did they perhaps want to dwell on her being tortured sexually as well??

Tom Haney told her flat out two years earlier.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Sorry- I gotta completely rule out stuffing her in the suitcase for the trip. Can you imagine what she'd look like when "unpacked"? Ever smell a dead body? I have. It starts pretty quickly with no refrigeration. By the time she was "found" about 12 hours after death, she already had an "odor of decAY". No way would they take her on the plane. And do what with her? Toss her out of the plane? No. A dead body SEEPS without refrigeration(sometimes even with it) after a while, certainly by the time they'd get to Charlevoix . Seeps out of the suitcase. It's horrific.
There would be no way to explain where she was to the rest of the family (BR, and JR's grown children meeting them) or the pilot. If they said she'd been kidnapped well, then...why are you on vacation?
I just can't make sense of anyone in the family putting her body on the plane in a suitcase.

Plus livor mortis indicated she was not moved. If she was put in the suitcase first (or freezer or anywhere else) there would be a different livor pattern on the body.

Also, I don't know why Patsy (or any other family member) would need to go into the basement to retrieve the blanket from the dryer using the flashlight. The basement had lights. The flashlight needed to be used after she was killed, though. Neighbors might have noted if the lights were on, and actually, neighbors did make reports about lights being on or off that was not usual and the moving lights that were probably someone walking with the flashlight. Someone might have seen them walking around in the house in rooms that had no shades (like the kitchen window over the sink) with the lights on. It wasn't THAT late. People might still be up.

"I just can't make sense of anyone in the family putting her body on the plane in a suitcase." Alleluia

Now think about this a minute. Patsy allowing a stinky corpse to reside in her pristine home. Hell, freezes, over

 

[OneLove]

"I just can't make sense of anyone in the family putting her body on the plane in a suitcase." Alleluia

Now think about this a minute. Patsy allowing a stinky corpse to reside in her pristine home. Hell, freezes, over

The only thing wrong with that angle is that at the time, within minutes of her death, with an impromptu coverup being implemented under great shock and duress, there would not have been smell, decomposition, or probably even the thought of that yet. Maybe nearer to morning that became apparent, but probably not within the first hour or so.

The amateurish scene that morning looked very much like someone had a hard time coming up with a coherent plan. That seemed to continue after the spectators were called to the home, even with the threat of their daughter being killed if they did that.

 

[MurriFlower]

Tom Haney told her flat out two years earlier.

Would you please quiet your font down several sizes. I is not blind or stoopid iver!!

 

[BOESP]

So, just run by me how they were going to find out this information if the investigators denied it to them? Read the tabloids perhaps?

As to whether they wanted to know about the sexual abuse, perhaps it was just a case of their daughter was murdered by being head bashed and strangled. Wasn't this enough pain to bear? Did they perhaps want to dwell on her being tortured sexually as well??

You may very well be correct MurriFlower but I have a problem believing that Lin Wood didn't gather every shred of information. I would think he would have at least discussed the findings with John Ramsey and probably Patsy Ramsey as well. It is hard to believe he neglected such important information as he prepared a defense that covered all bases.