Accident or Intentional; Evidence and Debate

[Eidetic]

I am sorry I must have missed where Shirley said that she believed that Casey would kill Caylee. I also hate to say it, but I dont think she was involved with Casey and Caylee enough to have an opinion on that. Not to mention IF Shirley said that, there are an awful lot of other statements from those who WERE involved closely with Casey and Caylee who say the opposite.

I also think that Mothers defend and/protect their children (it is biologically programmed into us after all). I think that Shirley would have a negative view of Casey for many reasons that have to do with HER daughter Cindy, and not necessarily her "own observations".

That also says something to me about the demeanor of the defendant. A grandmother who doesn't care to spend time with her grand daughter? My grandmothers are always begging me to come see them more often! (which is followed by tremendous guilt on my part)
Same with most grandmothers I know, they love to spoil their grand kids and see them happy.

After she stole from Shirley and Casey apologized through email (very tacky, and I am not sure it wasn't Cindy pretending to be Casey again) and asked if she wanted her to come by and help out, Shirley flat out told her do not come here.

It sounds like Shirley had Casey's number even though Cindy only told her what she wanted her to know about the house on Hope Springs Drive. :twocents:

 

[Dignity4Victims]

Lee also said that KC gave him the whole "Zanny knocked me down at JB Park" story while out on bond, including physically "acting out" how Zanny pushed her.

Yeah............. and where is he? lol

It's irrelevant where Lee is.

Wherever Lee is, what he left behind was his sworn statements to LE, and his sworn under oath depositions where he clearly states what AZlawyer has in her post, quoted above.

Unless he would further like to commit perjury, he's married to those statements.

 

[joypath]

Plus by the time the leakage would start to occur I think the jaw would have dropped. Have to get Joypath's expert opinion on this one. You make a very good point about the bags. Thanks.

If they were chew marks that would eliminate an accident for 100% certainty. JMO

Again short answer: yes, the copious amounts of visible leakage around the head area would be occurring within a 3 hr interval (aka well before the first stages of rigor mortis or muscle rigidity/lockup), again without an external assistance or heck an internal wiring assistance, the mandible would have dropped/loosened/gone limp/slackened/"flopped downward". (ran out of vernacular!)
PS: Fat lot of good the darn tape would have done to stop the leakage, there would have been oozing from ALL orifices of the head as the critters participated in the decomposition party! It is NOT a pretty sight!!!:furious:

BTW: The fluid leaking would definitely begin with the oral cavity (saliva) and depending on the body positioning, would travel the "road" of least resistance but we are NOT talking about a flooding situation during the first few hours! The bladder and bowels would NOT evacuate (think balloon and tube of toothpaste) but any "leakage that might occur would be "caught" by the pull-up.

NB: ALL please catch this NB: (thank you dear CSJs for the Latin training!)
" Joypath's expert opinion on this one."

For professional reasons (aka I like being employed where I am) and a few of our cases have made the WS "radar"/discussion forum, I have declined to be officially verified/cleared/sanctioned/beatified/as a Websleuths expert in my area of vocational expertise. As flattering as that title is from LambChop, I am unworthy to wear it. I will continue to post from my phenomenological frame of reference for our discussions, tho!

 

[beach]

It's irrelevant where Lee is.

Wherever Lee is, what he left behind was his sworn statements to LE, and his sworn under oath depositions where he clearly states what AZlawyer has in her post, quoted above.

Unless he would further like to commit perjury, he's married to those statements.

BBM

Exactly! Like him or not, he has displayed more sense than any of the rest of 'em by keeping a low profile and not paticipating in the media tours.

 

[quadlatte]

If it comes out there was that argument that turned physcial on June 15, 2008, I'm inclined to believe it was an intentional act done out of rage!

If it doesn't, I'm still inclined to believe it was an intentional act to get back at CA. We've read about their love/hate relationship, we've heard GGM state, she thought Inmate Anthony hated CA more than she loved Caylee, jealousy is another factor in Caylee's demise.

I also believe TonyL's statement of wanting boys not girls when he has children, pushed Inmate Anthony into this further. I think she is no different than Susan Smith but I give SS credit for coming clean.

I can't get past not alerting authorities for 30 days, I can't get past her dumping her car at Amscot with the smell of death. I can't get past Inmate Anthony's cavalier attitude in finding Caylee, she didn't lift one leg to look for her. Her Bella Vita tattoo practically admitting to her new life with no child in tow. How she seemed to flourish after Caylee's alleged abduction. Her demeanor is not one of a mother who misses her child, no tears for Caylee only herself.

Any way you look at Caylee's demise, I feel it was intentional!

JMHO

Justice for Caylee

BBM
ITA and after reading Krystal Holloway/River Cruz's transcript (even with a heap of salt) I was completely convinced it was not an accident.

KH/RC stated that Cindy and Casey were "carbon copies" of each other, and that they had "battery acid" running through their veins.

What happened afterwards (Cindy calling 911, George's Grand Jury testimony) was the "accident" that snowballed out of control.

KH/RC stated that George only gave that deposition when he thought that LE was not fingering Casey (no pun intended). His vomiting during the depo is what gives me the impression that he was being (accidentally, in hindsight)truthful at that time. Once he knew that Casey was the POI, he began backpedaling and "snowing" us all...:banghead:

 

[LambChop]

Again short answer: yes, the copious amounts of visible leakage around the head area would be occurring within a 3 hr interval (aka well before the first stages of rigor mortis or muscle rigidity/lockup), again without an external assistance or heck an internal wiring assistance, the mandible would have dropped/loosened/gone limp/slackened/"flopped downward". (ran out of vernacular!)
PS: Fat lot of good the darn tape would have done to stop the leakage, there would have been oozing from ALL orifices of the head as the critters participated in the decomposition party! It is NOT a pretty sight!!!:furious:

BTW: The fluid leaking would definitely begin with the oral cavity (saliva) and depending on the body positioning, would travel the "road" of least resistance but we are NOT talking about a flooding situation during the first few hours! The bladder and bowels would NOT evacuate (think balloon and tube of toothpaste) but any "leakage that might occur would be "caught" by the pull-up.

NB: ALL please catch this NB: (thank you dear CSJs for the Latin training!)
" Joypath's expert opinion on this one."

For professional reasons (aka I like being employed where I am) and a few of our cases have made the WS "radar"/discussion forum, I have declined to be officially verified/cleared/sanctioned/beatified/as a Websleuths expert in my area of vocational expertise. As flattering as that title is from LambChop, I am unworthy to wear it. I will continue to post from my phenomenological frame of reference for our discussions, tho!

Joypath I am very flexible and I can change that to whatever you want. You bring much Sunshine into very dark areas of this case. Your "most respected opinion" is not only appreciated but welcome by the majority of us here. This is also a learning experience for many of us and any help along the way is valued. Thank you so much for being here for Caylee. JMO

 

[Cat13067]

The ONLY point was that they lie do you disagree with that?

Oh no I agree that CA, GA, LA, KC, and the defense team tell whoppers. That said, I can't think of one thing LE lied about with regard to this case-can you?

 

[nort]

Oh no I agree that CA, GA, LA, KC, and the defense team tell whoppers. That said, I can't think of one thing LE lied about with regard to this case-can you?

I Never did say anything about LE had not even considered them to be liars.

 

[Cat13067]

She also said she was a wonderful mother that could never hurt her child..so she has two opinions..

In everyday conversation CA told anyone that would listen that KC was a lying, thief, and also an unfit mother. Even LA testified under oath that KC told him "Well maybe Mom is right I am an unfit mother". CA said it to KC so many times KC proved her right now didn't she?

 

[Cat13067]

Well gosh, that is just opinion. Thanks

How could it be his opinion when he viewed the Target, and BOA tapes. Why would he say she is innocent with that evidence?

 

[notthatsmart]

Which reminds me of a quote: "The truth and Ms. Anthony are strangers." An observation from an expert. JMO

I know this is off topic, however I believe it will play the biggest role in this whole trial. So I am giving my 2 cents. A Judge should never make a comment like this before the investigation is finished. Judges have super power. People just simply believe Judges flat out. Their word is gold. That statement has set the tone for this entire pretrial timeframe. It is obvious that the Judge feels the defendant is guilty from the get go. The Judge does not believe in innocent until proven guilty. There is no way possible that Kc can get a fair trial. Furthermore the Judge has ruled accordingly. I respectfully disagree with a comment like this from any Judge in any trial. I want Judges to be impartial. He may follow the letter of the law and look like he is being fair, but I can't help but think that he is leaning the states way, based on his own beliefs of what he feels Kc is. He should have removed himself after saying that. I hope he does not become the trial Judge. IMO

Ps I realize that I will get responses from posters that I am a Judge basher. I am not a Judge basher. I respect Judges and it is because I do not see them doing things like this. Most Judges are way above this kind of behavior. IMO

 

[nort]

In everyday conversation CA told anyone that would listen that KC was a lying, thief, and also an unfit mother. Even LA testified under oath that KC told him "Well maybe Mom is right I am an unfit mother". CA said it to KC so many times KC proved her right now didn't she?

Was not speaking about anything other than saying they lie. So if you dont believe that Cindy meant it when she said Casey is a wonderful mother than we are on the same page:banghead:

 

[marspiter]

What did they lie about? Be specific please? thanks

I believe the defense was being perfectly honest when JB said it is not in my clients best interest for her to give details that would help LE find her daughter. (paraphrased)

I believe JB was doing something dishonest and criminal according to Fla law when he was passing information and letters to his client in the jail. I do believe Casey was being honest when she wrote that in her letters.

I believe the defense was being honest when they didn't turn over evidence proving Casey's innocence as ordered by the court.

I believe JB was being honest when he wanted to be present at the remains site because he knew it was his client's dead child before the body was identified.

Does that count? :innocent:

 

[wyome]

btw....GREAT THREAD!! Good reading, lots of good points being made in support of both sides of the argument.


I don't have much to contribute except - IF it were an accident, any normal person (not being snide) would show some evidence of grief...intentionally or not. No one - not TL, AH, RC, etc...Not a single soul testified they saw anything that remotely indicated grief or fear. Just partying, getting tattoos espousing a 'beautiful life', mani & pedis, shopping at Target on her 'friend's' dime.... Someone show me somewhere...anywhere...she had some conciousness of grief during those 31 days. Or even afterwards.

This is a great point. One could make the same argument that if she intentionally smothered her child, she would be walking around in a fit of anxiety and paranoia. I cannot understand why she could be so devoid of ANY emotion. I assume something inside just *snapped* when she found her cold, and denial set in. Just something I've considered.

Because of her lack of emotion, for some time I considered there was a third party....someone she had given her to. Weird coincidences like Fusian's nightclub closing and Zenaida's bf's connection with the tatoo place and Will Waters, TL/Lee's drug theft discussion, etc. let my imagination explore some other sinister possibilities. But I kept coming back to an accident, due to Casey's negligence. And I still believe it's possible she placed the tape on her face because of the 0factor. LOL I know that's not a popular theory.

Either way, if it WAS accidental, Casey will never admit to such, so she'll be going down. IMO, she'd rather go to the chair than admit to her parents she f*ed up. Although she appears to have a very high opinion of herself, I think she's very damaged and actually has very low self-esteem.

Cindy accuses her of being an unfit mother (and yes she was), but sadly, she was set up for this failure. Just my opinion.

 

[Cat13067]

I Never did say anything about LE had not even considered them to be liars.

I'm so happy you agree that LE has been truthful with regard to this case.

 

[beach]

If those turn out to be bite marks then the DP alone is too good for KC- she should be hung drawn and quartered.
I had not noticed those marks before. I am so appalled I don't think I can write any more for a while. If it is so it will haunt anyone who cared about Caylee.

I totally agree.

Thanks much AZ for pointing that out. As disturbing as it is.

If there is expert testimony in re. that theory, I swear I will not be able to watch that. I would lose it completely.

 

[nort]

Oh no I agree that CA, GA, LA, KC, and the defense team tell whoppers. That said, I can't think of one thing LE lied about with regard to this case-can you?

Based on whats going on this thread are you trying to respond to NTS and got me instead because truly I said nothing about LE but NTS did and really cant believe you would be arguing about me calling the majority of the Anthonys liars..

 

[ohiogirl]

Hm, I guess I kind of wish he hadn't said that also. But, I also believe he will follow the letter of the law. I don't think an appeal would be granted based upon that one comment, but I could be wrong. I think he has seemed to be incredibly patient and willing to hear all arguments. Judges are people, though, and they will form their own opinions based upon whatever. That doesn't mean he will rule according to opinion as opposed to the law. jmo

If it is not obvious, I was commenting on nts judge post.

 

[ohiogirl]

This is a great point. One could make the same argument that if she intentionally smothered her child, she would be walking around in a fit of anxiety and paranoia. I cannot understand why she could be so devoid of ANY emotion. I assume something inside just *snapped* when she found her cold, and denial set in. Just something I've considered.

Because of her lack of emotion, for some time I considered there was a third party....someone she had given her to. Weird coincidences like Fusian's nightclub closing and Zenaida's bf's connection with the tatoo place and Will Waters, TL/Lee's drug theft discussion, etc. let my imagination explore some other sinister possibilities. But I kept coming back to an accident, due to Casey's negligence. And I still believe it's possible she placed the tape on her face because of the 0factor. LOL I know that's not a popular theory.

Either way, if it WAS accidental, Casey will never admit to such, so she'll be going down. IMO, she'd rather go to the chair than admit to her parents she f*ed up. Although she appears to have a very high opinion of herself, I think she's very damaged and actually has very low self-esteem.

Cindy accuses her of being an unfit mother (and yes she was), but sadly, she was set up for this failure. Just my opinion.

I can see her asking for a do over if found guilty and saying then, wait, it was really an accident.

Can't vote for the DP yet, though.

 

[logicalgirl]

What are you talking about? buying what? If you are talking about soddi, then what is it that your not buying? The defense is going with the soddi theory IMO, is that not your opinion? Elaborate for me

LOL - I am not buying the defense's Soddi's theory. Here a soddi there a soddi everywhere a soddisoddi is a little take off on the children's McDonalds Farm song - a joke that obviously fell very FLAT!:blushing: