Accident or Intentional; Evidence and Debate

[notthatsmart]

The defense has lied about so many things I can't be convinced of anything they say.

What did they lie about? Be specific please? thanks

 

[LambChop]

Yeah............. and where is he? lol

I believe he is doing what any law abiding citizen who is a witness in a high profile case is doing.....staying away from the public eye and limiting their comments to "no comment." Perhaps LA has seen that light at the end of KC tunnel. Also something in KC letters. She is mad at LA for working with LE to get information from KC about the whereabouts of her daughter. This is NOT, repeat not the mother of a missing child. She would have accepted that her brother was just trying to help find Caylee. If LE had information not public they may have been able to find the missing child....now we know better as does LE. JMO

 

[ZsaZsa]

Very true and really, none of casey's friends at that time knew her at all or knew how deceptive she was and admitted as much in police interviews. The only other people saying she was a great mom have zero credibility - GA, CA, Baez, and Casey herself. She really didn't even have friends per se, just people she hung out with and slept with.

When this case broke I think they discovered that they did not know her at all.
KC was a social butterfly- when one group of people found about her lies and stealing she just moved on.

 

[magic-cat]

"The life of a celebrity, huh? Right. If only I were old and ugly, then they wouldn't care. Sad that those words have come from people in the media, not just me." Quote from one of the letter KC wrote to RA around the time Caylee was found.

This quote sounds very strange in a revealing way to me. KC thinks of herself as a "Celeb" but feels if she were old and ugly no one would care. Does she not realize people only care about the way her child died and that she continues to cover it up? This is all about covering up a crime which is intentional. With all the evidence out there if it were an accident what would she be waiting for? If it were really an accident why would you want to blame someone else and have an innocent person be charged with murder & given possible DP sentence. Would that not make KC reasponsible for the death of another person? Do you think her attorneys may have explained this to her or do they just not care? JMO

Yeah that comment bothered me too. It is almost like she said the whole world is only interested in Caylee's death because KC is pretty. A MOST ludicrous point of view! Pretty is as pretty does KC...a lesson you might want to learn while you sit in your cell...

If there HAD been an accident? She would have come clean long ago. She could NOT come clean, because she knew her daughter had duct tape on her corpse on her face. I believe this IS the only reason she did NOT go the accident route. I believe she WISHES she had removed the tape before she disposed of her body...because then there would have been nothing but poor little Caylee's skeleton. I would bet good money KC has kicked herself repeatedly on THAT score...

 

[ZsaZsa]

Brent Huck's victim was found with duct tape over her mouth and nose also. She was found in water so the cause of death was undetermined, she could have drowned, she could have been suffocated from the duct tape. The means of death was determined to be homicide. Brent Huck was convicted and he appealed.

A hypothesis suggested by Huck's attorney was that Huck's victim could have died from natural causes and that Huck could have panicked and staged a kidnapping scenario which involved taping over the victim's face.

No so said the Florida Supreme Court in their response to Huck's appeal. The Florida Supreme Court said:

More importantly, the assertion that Mr.Huck taped the victim's eyes and mouth shut after she died is not particularly reasonable. The only logical reason to tape her eyes and mouth shut would have been to prevent her from seeing, talking,screaming for help, or breathing while she was alive. There is no logical or reasonable purpose for taping a person's eyes and mouth shut after she is dead.

http://www.denverda.org/DNA_Documents/Huck.pdf page 13

​

Duct tape = deleberate murder. End of story.

imo

Thanks Jolynna. If the Defense suggests that duct tape was used after death would the Judge instruct the Jury as to this Supreme Court decision or is this something the SA will bring up?

 

[notthatsmart]

But I thought the defense strategy was a secret. I think everyone one here who believes that defense will use soddi or not has an opinion and it is just an opinion. When you ask "what are you talking about" it sounds as if you know for sure that defense will use this strategy. So do you know something we don't know? Did you find something in the letters that KC wrote that would lead you to believe this is the strategy defense will use or is it just your personal opinion? Just curious. JMO from what was posted. Thanks

I put IMO in my post.

Kc refferred to Zani in her letters. So, based on that, I think maybe she is still going with Soddi. That is me speculating by the way. However I do not know when the letters were written. I have no information other than what everyone else here has. I will be the first to admit that I was not there, and could not possibly know what actually happened. This is a truth finding mission for me. I personally could care less who is guilty as long as we get the right person and the whole truth of the matter.

 

[LambChop]

What did they lie about? Be specific please? thanks

Oh I think I have one. JB said KC was "innocent". You are not innocent if you have lost your child. If I remember right there was also that not guilty plea for the checks.

 

[magiemay]

My favorite, too. I see KC after Zanny knocks her down, getting up, brushing herself off, straightening out her hair and her clothes, picking up her phone and saying "Now what was that number. 119, 114, 191. Oh wait, I'm supposed to meet TonE for movie night so we can do some serious cuddling. And this does really solve my problem about what to do with my little snothead. And afterall, tomorrow is a brand new day." So tell me, Marspiter, does the story end there? I think KC thought so. JMO

if we listen to Kc it does but the sippycup gang will soon be old enough to recant it for themselves and we will get their take on how it all went down, Wonder how Zanny will keep them from spilling the beans?:snooty:

 

[Dignity4Victims]

I believe it was an accident. I also believe that Casey freaked out after. I am not an expert in mental health, but I honestly believe after Caylee died she "snapped".

When I look at the pictures of Caylee with her Mother (and the rest of the family) I see love. I see nothing but love. I see Caylee loves her Mother. She doesnt seem to fear her in videos or pictures.

When I read the statements of people who KNOW them, they all say that Casey was a good and loving Mother.

I look at the statements of her friends that suggest at a certain point in time something started being NOT "right" with her. That she would deny things had happened when they had.These people KNOW Casey better then any one looking in from the outside.

When I look at where the cadaver digs hitting on scent in the backyard, it tells me Caylee was dead inside the back yard beside the pool and in the playhouse.

When I add in the FLURRY of calls to her Mother etc it tells me she was FREAKING out. If planned she would have had no reason to freak.

When I read Caysees own writings (texts,emails,chats), I see that her daughter came first. I am sure this was hard at times being so young, but I dont think she wanted a "new life", as much as some here seem to suggest/think.

Personal Story

When I was 16/17 I used to babsit for my Mother. My youngest sibling was a newborn. The next in line was a toddler. At lunch one day I set the bassinet with baby on the table to feed her. The toddler went running for the other room. I followed in hot pursuit, more worried about the one with moving legs then the one who couldnt move. As I picked the toddler up, I heard a big THUD from the dining room. Although I knew the baby wasnt even sitting up yet, I knew that noise was indicative of a MAJOR problem. As I came running back into the kitchen with toddler on my hip, I saw the baby on the floor. I ran so fast to pick her up, the look on her face was horrifying!!! She was SCREAMING but no noise was coming out! I picked her up and held her close. I was so panicked it still brings me to tears, and I feel bad even sharing this as it is an admittance of neglect on my own part.

Anyway, I held her so tight I think it caused the scream to come out of her. I stayed with her that entire afternoon so fearful that she wouldnt be ok, after all I was old enough to know about concussions and not allowing sleep. Long story short she WAS and IS ok(14 now and knows the story well...I cry everytime it comes up), but I NEVER told my Mother. Not for a year or more. The way she was lying on that floor she would have had to do a complete flip out of that car seat. She could have very well died form a concussion or cracked skull right then and there, but for some reason God held her and me that day and I have never EVER left a child that young unattended again regardless of it being 30 seconds or less.

I am only relaying this story to point out that I do understand the panic that sets in and the fear of what my Mother was going to say and/or do to me. If she had died, yes I would have called 911(I am pretty sure), but my mental state at that time was horrible. I never felt so horrible in my life! I feared what my Mother (and everyone else) was going to think of me. As an adult now, I am sure I would react differently in the same situation. It doesnt change my reaction in my late teens to "hide" it

Must be why she is still the sister I coddle to ...I will feel guilty FOREVER!

Sorry for the O/T....just trying to explain my own rationale for panic setting in and the need to "hide" her neglect (albeit oin a much grander scale then my own).

When you look at the pictures of Susan Smith's children, Darlie Routier's children, or many of the other children's pictures whose mothers have been convicted of murdering their babies, you also see "nothing but love". The fact is, photos are not an accurate reflection of what lies beneath the killer's true feelings nor motive for murder.

Your 2nd bold is simply not true.


Shirley Plesea very eloquently and accurately spelled out Casey's history of jealousy between the duo of Cindy and Casey, stating, "I wonder if Casey hated Cindy more than she loved Caylee."

Annie for certain, and I believe other friends of Casey's best to my memory, also speak about the history of jealousy between Cindy and Casey over Caylee.

George speaks of Casey's continual piggy bank thefts from Caylee's bank, "which was supposed to go toward her college fund". If you love your baby, you don't sit around on your lazy behind all day without a job while sneakingly draining your baby's college fund.

Lee speaks in his deposition about the fact that Casey "did nothing" for Caylee, it was all Cindy as the caregiver and provider for Caylee. It's easy to "love" your child from a distance, but a truly loving mother also gladly provides for her child both monetarily as well as physical tasks.

Cindy sought counseling due to the conflicts with Casey, and that certainly didn't happen because Casey was portraying herself as Mother of the Year, for Caylee. That's one reason Cindy said she would not follow the counselor's advice and "throw them both out"; she feared for Caylee's well-being solely under the supervision of Casey.

Cindy herself, Caylee's own "grandmother" speaks volumes about the jealousy, ungratefulness and spite from Casey, in Cindy's myspace letter she wrote to Casey. Cindy again fears for Caylee's well-being solely under the supervision of Casey by asking in that myspace letter, "Who is caring for the little angel?"

Jealousy, spite and laziness over your own flesh & blood does not equate to love, and plenty of people close to Casey have directly spoken of it.

 

[LambChop]

if we listen to Kc it does but the sippycup gang will soon be old enough to recant it for themselves and we will get their take on how it all went down, Wonder how Zanny will keep them from spilling the beans?:snooty:

KOOLAID! :crazy:

 

[RainyGirl]

I agree with you, Aedrys......the bottom line is that

there. is. no. conspiracy.

I have been privy to literally hundreds and hundreds of criminal court jury trials in four different jurisdictions and two different states. I believe wholeheartedly in our system of trial by jury. With the exception of one case of obvious police misconduct and one case of shoddy investigation (both unfortunately racially-biased).....I have never seen the "it's a widespread conspiracy!" slash "framejob!" slash "they never investigated anyone else!" get past a jury. Sure, the defense can posit a SODDI theory and/or attack the evidence, but it seems very clear that L.E. did this one BY THE BOOK. Thank God they were savvy enough to know that there are some unethical, amoral defense lawyers out there. JMO

 

[LambChop]

I put IMO in my post.

Kc refferred to Zani in her letters. So, based on that, I think maybe she is still going with Soddi. That is me speculating by the way. However I do not know when the letters were written. I have no information other than what everyone else here has. I will be the first to admit that I was not there, and could not possibly know what actually happened. This is a truth finding mission for me. I personally could care less who is guilty as long as we get the right person and the whole truth of the matter.

Which reminds me of a quote: "The truth and Ms. Anthony are strangers." An observation from an expert. JMO

 

[AZlawyer]

The more I think about the duct tape, the more I can't make it "fit" with an accident scenario. Why bother trying to stop decomp leakage/insects from specific orifices only, when you are wrapping the entire body in plastic bags and a waterproof laundry bag anyway???

And am I the only one who thinks the duct tape looks like it was chewed on from the inside?

 

[cmsg2002]

I was refferring to what Kc told police and not what Lp says that TMc says
that someone else says that she said. Oh yeah, Ga was in their too.
People should stop putting words in Kc mouth, because it wont fly at trial.

From the letters it sounds like Kc does not believe Zanny is the perp. She has never said so either. She has only said that she dropped off Caylee at the steps at Sawgrass apts.

The Jury will be made up of people just like Ws I disagree somewhat.
I doubt the general public is on the same level as ws 'r doubt a Ws'r would even qualify to be on the jury. Furthermore, in the gulty not guilty thread, the not guilty made up for 11 percent. That is a hung Jury IMO

I'm fairly certain KC has stated Zanny told her she was "teaching her a lesson"...that Caylee would be returned by her b-day; that Caylee called her the same day she was arrested (remember the shoes); and that she couldn't tell what happened because she was protecting her family, Caylee, etc. her actions, behaviors, responses, writings, etc. are not that of someone wrongfully accused of killing her own child. What nails it for me is essentially her trying to justify Caylee being dead by asserting she is almost glad Caylee won't have to experience heartbreak, negativity, etc. IMO, that is a huge indicator of guilt.

 

[LinasK]

Okay, I just want to reitterate that when I saw heard Jb that day after court talking to reporters, and answered a question to Kb about the woods. He said, Kc was not in those woods, your in lala land. That sealed it for me, even the defense does not believe it was an accident. I can not imagine an accident with cover up and someone else helping.

JMO It was not an accident that was caused by Kc Neglect. That does not mean it was not an accident caused by Zanny or someone else. IMO

Funny... that's what just ran through my mind- an accident caused by Zanny- EXCEPT there is no Zanny (unless Casey was blaming the real ZFG), which she claims she wasn't- Zanny was a composite, possibly based on the looks of River Cruz.
Casey wasn't working- in her letters she admits she stayed home during the day- she had no need of a nanny, and she's proven directly to LE she lied about having a job.

 

[nort]

When you look at the pictures of Susan Smith's children, Darlie Routier's children, or many of the other children's pictures whose mothers have been convicted of murdering their babies, you also see "nothing but love". The fact is, photos are not an accurate reflection of what lies beneath the killer's true feelings nor motive for murder.

Your 2nd bold is simply not true.


Shirley Plesea very eloquently and accurately spelled out Casey's history of jealousy between the duo of Cindy and Casey, stating, "I wonder if Casey hated Cindy more than she loved Caylee."

Annie for certain, and I believe other friends of Casey's best to my memory, also speak about the history of jealousy between Cindy and Casey over Caylee.

George speaks of Casey's continual piggy bank thefts from Caylee's bank, "which was supposed to go toward her college fund". If you love your baby, you don't sit around on your lazy behind all day without a job while sneakingly draining your baby's college fund.

Lee speaks in his deposition about the fact that Casey "did nothing" for Caylee, it was all Cindy as the caregiver and provider for Caylee. It's easy to "love" your child from a distance, but a truly loving mother also gladly provides for her child both monetarily as well as physical tasks.

Cindy sought counseling due to the conflicts with Casey, and that certainly didn't happen because Casey was portraying herself as Mother of the Year, for Caylee. That's one reason Cindy said she would not follow the counselor's advice and "throw them both out"; she feared for Caylee's well-being solely under the supervision of Casey.

Cindy herself, Caylee's own "grandmother" speaks volumes about the jealousy, ungratefulness and spite from Casey, in Cindy's myspace letter she wrote to Casey. Cindy again fears for Caylee's well-being solely under the supervision of Casey by asking in that myspace letter, "Who is caring for the little angel?"

Jealousy, spite and laziness over your own flesh & blood does not equate to love, and plenty of people close to Casey have directly spoken of it.

They all talk out of both sides of their mouths bad Casey Good Casey so it becomes useless...

 

[Dignity4Victims]

Well that means the Supreme Court won't buy it, but that does not mean the jury won't buy it. And what if it were true? I mean what if that really happened? What if panic set in? Not for Kc, but for anyone? Why can we not be allowed to be human and make mistakes without being charged with premedidated murder? What cant we just be charged with stupidity or bad reaction, or neglegence.

Mainly because we, as a lawful society which would exclude Casey Anthony, function on a basis of morals, values and norms.

Lawful citizens who have experienced an accident do not duct tape their baby's air passages shut, toss the baby in the woods to decompose into bones, hide their baby from the grandmother for over a month while the grandmother frantically begs to visit that baby, and most disgraceful, continually lie to LE and the FBI, refusing to lend any sort of help in locating that baby.

Those are all acts of hate, or at the very least, a complete lack of mothering love, concern, morals, values and norms.

 

[Cat13067]

Okay, I just want to reitterate that when I saw heard Jb that day after court talking to reporters, and answered a question to Kb about the woods. He said, Kc was not in those woods, your in lala land. That sealed it for me, even the defense does not believe it was an accident. I can not imagine an accident with cover up and someone else helping.

JMO It was not an accident that was caused by Kc Neglect. That does not mean it was not an accident caused by Zanny or someone else. IMO

JB was not under oath when he spoke to KB. Wonder if he would have the same answer if he was put on the stand?

 

[nort]

JB was not under oath when he spoke to KB. Wonder if he would have the same answer if he was put on the stand?

Good Point..

 

[LinasK]

I believe it was an accident. I also believe that Casey freaked out after. I am not an expert in mental health, but I honestly believe after Caylee died she "snapped".

When I read the statements of people who KNOW them, they all say that Casey was a good and loving Mother.

When I look at where the cadaver digs hitting on scent in the backyard, it tells me Caylee was dead inside the back yard beside the pool and in the playhouse. Doesn't prove it was a drowning death, only that a dead Caylee was placed there.

Red text is mine. How about the quote from her own mother that Casey is a sociopath???