GUILTY AK - Kristy Manzanares, 39, killed aboard Emerald Princess, Juneau, 25 July 2017 *husband arrested*

[SteveP]

To insinuate that this was a "fight" that escalated due to flirting or that both were intoxicated, when the article was clear that only one had been belligerent, and there was no mention of Kristy being drunk, sort of smacks of victim blaming or excusing the rage of this husband. As if unfortunate circumstances just led him to become enraged and was due to bad behavior on both their parts.

I've read a few posts in this vein, including from people I deeply respect. The insinuation is that both were drunk, both were belligerent and that people have a responsibility not to "egg on" or "set off" a drunk and that if they do, well, murder can happen, which is unfortunate, but that those dealing with angry drunks are tasked with keeping them calm.
I'm reading posts from dear posters describing situations in which the victim of domestic violence in a relationship at the hands of an alcoholic are perceived as just as much or almost as much to blame for "instigating" any violence that occurs when dealing with a belligerent drunk.

I take issue with all of that.

I do believe drinking played a part in this but the only evidence we have of anyone acting drunk is that it was he: The man who had been belligerent all night.

So was she not supposed to defend defend herself against the belligerent tirades of her drunken husband?

I mean people can get drunk and do so without attacking their wives. No matter what the wife says. Anyone who becomes violent while drinking has that in them to begin with.


And belligerent drunks often won't stop until they get a response so they can vent their rage on the abused spouse. Cowering or staying silent typically won't work. They will wake you out of a sleep to rage. They will harass you as you sit there quietly. They will continue on and on, no matter what you do or don't do or say or don't say. No matter how you say it.


Regardless, the only person who bears responsibility in a situation where a drunk becomes enraged and attacks is the drunk. They have a responsibility not to get drunk. Especially if their violent nature is exacerbated by drinking. They have a responsibility to get help with their rage.


Arguing back with an angry drunk isn't what prompts more rage or verbal abuse or violence. What prompts that is the drunk being drunk and having an unresolved violent nature.

To summarize my thoughts:


1. No one is responsible for reasoning with or keeping calm or not "setting off" a belligerent drunk. The drunk has the responsibility not to get to that state to begin with and to deal with their inner rage.


2. Those who "fight" with an angry drunk are not at fault and should not expect to be attacked. Often, they are simply trying to defend themselves against an unrelenting verbal assault from a drunk.


3. It is not common sense to expect physical assault and/or murder or to try to prevent it when engaging with someone who is either drunk, angry or both because 99% of people in those states don't physically assault women or children. It's not in most people to do that no matter how upset or inebriated. And as to those who have already seen their spouses or partners become violent when drunk, see 1 and 2 above.


4. There is no evidence that Kristy was drunk. There is evidence that he was as he was belligerent and that can be a sign.


5. There is evidence that Kristy was in a domestic violence relationship. Why? Because the statement of the child indicates he has a pattern of being abusive (rather than that her mom was baiting him
as ive seen insinuated). Because she was murdered by her husband of over a decade. Because unlike a coldly calculated plan to avoid support, or get revenge for something, or to obtain insurance proceeds or hide a huge lie or wherever, sudden rage killings, which this appears to be, typically are just the culmination of on-going abuse rather than a sudden, unexpected murder.

6. The nature of this man is evident by his actions and words following the "accident". He tried to throw her body overboard. He didn't cry, "what have I done?" He cried, "MY life is over!"


7. We ALL need to do better in understanding domestic violence and supporting victims, not victim blaming and holding perps accountable. That includes me.

Respectfully, in no way was I victim blaming, and I apologize to anyone who took my post as that. The "evidence" that he was belligerent all evening was from a supposed member of her family who was not even on the cruise. He may very well have been, but most of the "evidence" I have seen suggests there was an argument, and an argument requires two people. I was only speculating about the possible cause of the argument, and clearly said so. She did absolutely NOTHING to warrant being harmed in any way , much less being killed, and in the several years that I have been a member here, I have never been accused of victim blaming. But to think that he just decided to get drunk and kill his wife on a whim is to ignore the likelihood that he at least FELT provoked at some point. And no, feeling provoked does not excuse what he did, and he should pay dearly for his heinous crime. JMO

 

[flourish]

To insinuate that this was a "fight" that escalated due to flirting or that both were intoxicated, when the article was clear that only one had been belligerent, and there was no mention of Kristy being drunk, sort of smacks of victim blaming or excusing the rage of this husband. As if unfortunate circumstances just led him to become enraged and was due to bad behavior on both their parts.

I've read a few posts in this vein, including from people I deeply respect. The insinuation is that both were drunk, both were belligerent and that people have a responsibility not to "egg on" or "set off" a drunk and that if they do, well, murder can happen, which is unfortunate, but that those dealing with angry drunks are tasked with keeping them calm.
I'm reading posts from dear posters describing situations in which the victim of domestic violence in a relationship at the hands of an alcoholic are perceived as just as much or almost as much to blame for "instigating" any violence that occurs when dealing with a belligerent drunk.

I take issue with all of that.

I do believe drinking played a part in this but the only evidence we have of anyone acting drunk is that it was he: The man who had been belligerent all night.

So was she not supposed to defend defend herself against the belligerent tirades of her drunken husband?

I mean people can get drunk and do so without attacking their wives. No matter what the wife says. Anyone who becomes violent while drinking has that in them to begin with.


And belligerent drunks often won't stop until they get a response so they can vent their rage on the abused spouse. Cowering or staying silent typically won't work. They will wake you out of a sleep to rage. They will harass you as you sit there quietly. They will continue on and on, no matter what you do or don't do or say or don't say. No matter how you say it.


Regardless, the only person who bears responsibility in a situation where a drunk becomes enraged and attacks is the drunk. They have a responsibility not to get drunk. Especially if their violent nature is exacerbated by drinking. They have a responsibility to get help with their rage.


Arguing back with an angry drunk isn't what prompts more rage or verbal abuse or violence. What prompts that is the drunk being drunk and having an unresolved violent nature.

To summarize my thoughts:


1. No one is responsible for reasoning with or keeping calm or not "setting off" a belligerent drunk. The drunk has the responsibility not to get to that state to begin with and to deal with their inner rage.


2. Those who "fight" with an angry drunk are not at fault and should not expect to be attacked. Often, they are simply trying to defend themselves against an unrelenting verbal assault from a drunk.


3. It is not common sense to expect physical assault and/or murder or to try to prevent it when engaging with someone who is either drunk, angry or both because 99% of people in those states don't physically assault women or children. It's not in most people to do that no matter how upset or inebriated. And as to those who have already seen their spouses or partners become violent when drunk, see 1 and 2 above.


4. There is no evidence that Kristy was drunk. There is evidence that he was as he was belligerent and that can be a sign.


5. There is evidence that Kristy was in a domestic violence relationship. Why? Because the statement of the child indicates he has a pattern of being abusive (rather than that her mom was baiting him
as ive seen insinuated). Because she was murdered by her husband of over a decade. Because unlike a coldly calculated plan to avoid support, or get revenge for something, or to obtain insurance proceeds or hide a huge lie or wherever, sudden rage killings, which this appears to be, typically are just the culmination of on-going abuse rather than a sudden, unexpected murder.

6. The nature of this man is evident by his actions and words following the "accident". He tried to throw her body overboard. He didn't cry, "what have I done?" He cried, "MY life is over!"


7. We ALL need to do better in understanding domestic violence and supporting victims, not victim blaming and holding perps accountable. That includes me.

Yep I've been waken from a dead sleep when I had to work the next morning, by a drunk bf who wanted to perform drunken sex acts with me (likely knowing I'd decline) who then flew into such a rage at my declination that I ended up having to leave and sleep in my car. I was asleep! I did not instigate! He was likely more looking for a fight than a f*** and knew I'd say no so he'd have an "excuse" to blow up. And let's be real here--if he can't hardly walk how was he even gonna find my vagina anyway.

 

[Lilibet]

To insinuate that this was a "fight" that escalated due to flirting or that both were intoxicated, when the article was clear that only one had been belligerent, and there was no mention of Kristy being drunk, sort of smacks of victim blaming or excusing the rage of this husband. As if unfortunate circumstances just led him to become enraged and was due to bad behavior on both their parts.

I've read a few posts in this vein, including from people I deeply respect. The insinuation is that both were drunk, both were belligerent and that people have a responsibility not to "egg on" or "set off" a drunk and that if they do, well, murder can happen, which is unfortunate, but that those dealing with angry drunks are tasked with keeping them calm.
I'm reading posts from dear posters describing situations in which the victim of domestic violence in a relationship at the hands of an alcoholic are perceived as just as much or almost as much to blame for "instigating" any violence that occurs when dealing with a belligerent drunk.

I take issue with all of that.

I do believe drinking played a part in this but the only evidence we have of anyone acting drunk is that it was he: The man who had been belligerent all night.

So was she not supposed to defend defend herself against the belligerent tirades of her drunken husband?

I mean people can get drunk and do so without attacking their wives. No matter what the wife says. Anyone who becomes violent while drinking has that in them to begin with.


And belligerent drunks often won't stop until they get a response so they can vent their rage on the abused spouse. Cowering or staying silent typically won't work. They will wake you out of a sleep to rage. They will harass you as you sit there quietly. They will continue on and on, no matter what you do or don't do or say or don't say. No matter how you say it.


Regardless, the only person who bears responsibility in a situation where a drunk becomes enraged and attacks is the drunk. They have a responsibility not to get drunk. Especially if their violent nature is exacerbated by drinking. They have a responsibility to get help with their rage.


Arguing back with an angry drunk isn't what prompts more rage or verbal abuse or violence. What prompts that is the drunk being drunk and having an unresolved violent nature.

To summarize my thoughts:


1. No one is responsible for reasoning with or keeping calm or not "setting off" a belligerent drunk. The drunk has the responsibility not to get to that state to begin with and to deal with their inner rage.


2. Those who "fight" with an angry drunk are not at fault and should not expect to be attacked. Often, they are simply trying to defend themselves against an unrelenting verbal assault from a drunk.


3. It is not common sense to expect physical assault and/or murder or to try to prevent it when engaging with someone who is either drunk, angry or both because 99% of people in those states don't physically assault women or children. It's not in most people to do that no matter how upset or inebriated. And as to those who have already seen their spouses or partners become violent when drunk, see 1 and 2 above.


4. There is no evidence that Kristy was drunk. There is evidence that he was as he was belligerent and that can be a sign.


5. There is evidence that Kristy was in a domestic violence relationship. Why? Because the statement of the child indicates he has a pattern of being abusive (rather than that her mom was baiting him
as ive seen insinuated). Because she was murdered by her husband of over a decade. Because unlike a coldly calculated plan to avoid support, or get revenge for something, or to obtain insurance proceeds or hide a huge lie or wherever, sudden rage killings, which this appears to be, typically are just the culmination of on-going abuse rather than a sudden, unexpected murder.

6. The nature of this man is evident by his actions and words following the "accident". He tried to throw her body overboard. He didn't cry, "what have I done?" He cried, "MY life is over!"


7. We ALL need to do better in understanding domestic violence and supporting victims, not victim blaming and holding perps accountable. That includes me.

Bolded and underlined by me

Dear, dear Gitana, for whom I have tremendous respect and affection...
You make excellent points about an important subject. I appreciate your victim advocacy. However, referring to the part of your post I've bolded and underlined, which I take to be mostly about my post, since I don't recall anyone else posting something similar...Please don't twist my post. You know me better than that. You have used my thoughts and feelings erroneously. While what you have written in your post is a valid objection to victim blaming, you are taking issue as an adult with what I wrote as a child. I clearly wrote from the perspective of a frightened child who wanted the fighting to stop and was angry at both parents. That is a legitimate feeling for a child to have, so please don't lump me in with adult victim blamers just to make your point. I don't belong there.

If you read my post slowly and thoughtfully, it is very clear that it was not about blaming Kristy and holding her responsible. It was about my empathy personally for the potential emotional turmoil (anger and guilt) the children may feel, above and beyond losing both their mother and father. It was based on my personal childhood experience and I made it abundantly clear in my post that I was speaking from the point of view of a frightened child witnessing an argument escalate to violence between a drunk father and a sober mother. The thoughts and emotions of a child may not be reasonable but they are very real and are not "wrong." I felt that my experience was possibly relevant to what may have happened to Kristy's girls and what they may be feeling. Those feelings of anger toward the victim and guilt are a heavy burden for a child to bear and my heart went out to them if that is what they feel...because I've been there. My hope that they get counseling is so that they can process and move past those possible feelings as they mature into adulthood.

In retrospect, I should have kept my thoughts to myself. Lesson learned. It saddens me that you or anyone could view what I wrote as victim blaming and take issue with what a child feels. I was not victim blaming. Kristy is the victim. My mother was the victim. I can say that as an adult. But children don't have an adult's education and experience with which to process their feelings. I felt it was important to speak to that potential part of this tragedy IF it played out that way. Is avoiding the possible appearance of blaming the victim more important than understanding how children may feel? Apparently. In any case, I hope I have now made my point more clear if there was any unintended ambiguity.

Again, with deep respect and affection,
Lilibet

 

[SeesSeas]

I do believe drinking played a part in this but the only evidence we have of anyone acting drunk is that it was he: The man who had been belligerent all night.

4. There is no evidence that Kristy was drunk. There is evidence that he was as he was belligerent and that can be a sign.

5. There is evidence that Kristy was in a domestic violence relationship.

^^^ SBM

Media has reported this tragedy in an unprofessional and sensational manner, and some of the initial information is later reported as incorrect.

INFORMATION is not EVIDENCE.

The following statements seem to be arguments in support of an opinion based primarily on unverified information reported by the media.
. . . the only evidence we have of anyone acting drunk is that it was he: The man who had been belligerent all night.
There is no evidence that Kristy was drunk. There is evidence that he was as he was belligerent and that can be a sign.
There is evidence that Kristy was in a domestic violence relationship.

I’m curious about the word EVIDENCE being used definitively.
Have you been provided EVIDENCE?

 

[Indy Anna]

To insinuate that this was a "fight" that escalated due to flirting or that both were intoxicated, when the article was clear that only one had been belligerent, and there was no mention of Kristy being drunk, sort of smacks of victim blaming or excusing the rage of this husband. As if unfortunate circumstances just led him to become enraged and was due to bad behavior on both their parts.

I've read a few posts in this vein, including from people I deeply respect. The insinuation is that both were drunk, both were belligerent and that people have a responsibility not to "egg on" or "set off" a drunk and that if they do, well, murder can happen, which is unfortunate, but that those dealing with angry drunks are tasked with keeping them calm.
I'm reading posts from dear posters describing situations in which the victim of domestic violence in a relationship at the hands of an alcoholic are perceived as just as much or almost as much to blame for "instigating" any violence that occurs when dealing with a belligerent drunk.

I take issue with all of that.

I do believe drinking played a part in this but the only evidence we have of anyone acting drunk is that it was he: The man who had been belligerent all night.

So was she not supposed to defend defend herself against the belligerent tirades of her drunken husband?

I mean people can get drunk and do so without attacking their wives. No matter what the wife says. Anyone who becomes violent while drinking has that in them to begin with.


And belligerent drunks often won't stop until they get a response so they can vent their rage on the abused spouse. Cowering or staying silent typically won't work. They will wake you out of a sleep to rage. They will harass you as you sit there quietly. They will continue on and on, no matter what you do or don't do or say or don't say. No matter how you say it.


Regardless, the only person who bears responsibility in a situation where a drunk becomes enraged and attacks is the drunk. They have a responsibility not to get drunk. Especially if their violent nature is exacerbated by drinking. They have a responsibility to get help with their rage.


Arguing back with an angry drunk isn't what prompts more rage or verbal abuse or violence. What prompts that is the drunk being drunk and having an unresolved violent nature.

To summarize my thoughts:


1. No one is responsible for reasoning with or keeping calm or not "setting off" a belligerent drunk. The drunk has the responsibility not to get to that state to begin with and to deal with their inner rage.


2. Those who "fight" with an angry drunk are not at fault and should not expect to be attacked. Often, they are simply trying to defend themselves against an unrelenting verbal assault from a drunk.


3. It is not common sense to expect physical assault and/or murder or to try to prevent it when engaging with someone who is either drunk, angry or both because 99% of people in those states don't physically assault women or children. It's not in most people to do that no matter how upset or inebriated. And as to those who have already seen their spouses or partners become violent when drunk, see 1 and 2 above.


4. There is no evidence that Kristy was drunk. There is evidence that he was as he was belligerent and that can be a sign.


5. There is evidence that Kristy was in a domestic violence relationship. Why? Because the statement of the child indicates he has a pattern of being abusive (rather than that her mom was baiting him
as ive seen insinuated). Because she was murdered by her husband of over a decade. Because unlike a coldly calculated plan to avoid support, or get revenge for something, or to obtain insurance proceeds or hide a huge lie or wherever, sudden rage killings, which this appears to be, typically are just the culmination of on-going abuse rather than a sudden, unexpected murder.

6. The nature of this man is evident by his actions and words following the "accident". He tried to throw her body overboard. He didn't cry, "what have I done?" He cried, "MY life is over!"


7. We ALL need to do better in understanding domestic violence and supporting victims, not victim blaming and holding perps accountable. That includes me.

Thank you for this, Gitana. I agree that there were signs of ongoing DV. This doesn't happen out of thin air. Also, I don't believe Kristy would have suddenly asked for a divorce if this were an isolated incident of bad behavior by Kenneth. People in a DV situation often stay in the relationship for fear of their partner's reaction. That's why I believe being surrounded by family members (not just the children) in a public place made Kristy feel safe to ask for a divorce. IMO she just didn't anticipate help being prevented from reaching her in time by the locked door. She may have tried getting away from him but the close quarters made it impossible. JMO

 

[mocity]

Thank you for this, Gitana. I agree that there were signs of ongoing DV. This doesn't happen out of thin air. Also, I don't believe Kristy would have suddenly asked for a divorce if this were an isolated incident of bad behavior by Kenneth. People in a DV situation often stay in the relationship for fear of their partner's reaction. That's why I believe being surrounded by family members (not just the children) in a public place made Kristy feel safe to ask for a divorce. IMO she just didn't anticipate help being prevented from reaching her in time by the locked door. She may have tried getting away from him but the close quarters made it impossible. JMO

I hesitate to even add my thoughts but its just my guess. She could have said something like that trying to snap him out of however he was acting. She could have muttered... if you don't stop acting like this I am going to divorce your a$$. Who knows. Based on what I read they were on a cruise with family celebrating their 18th wedding anniversary. In any case, this is such a sad story for all involved.

 

[Seajay]

You can't argue with a drunk. It is an exercise in futility.

I'm thinking that when he was acting so belligerently in front of the family, that she felt safe in asking for a divorce then. Not one member who witnessed his behavior would question her or why she would want a divorce. And I'm sure it never occurred to her that she would be at risk of life and limb with so much family around. I would have felt safe in that environment, even if i never would have felt safe at home, alone with him. This also leads me to believe there had been other issues in the marriage and it wasn't a spur of the moment thing for her. That's my opinion for what it's worth.

 

[LvsAMystry]

I feel like her asking for a divorce ties into the " she wouldn't stop laughing at me" statement. There he was being belligerent at dinner in front of family and I can picture someone getting exasperated and saying look at how you're behaving this is ridiculous I want a divorce, perhaps half (probably more than half) in jest and possibly laughing while saying it just because of the sheer ridiculousness of his behavior from the sounds of it. Others present may have even laughed too. Take that statement about divorce and the possible way it was said half jest half not and he probably felt "laughed at" and it fueled his rage.

 

[pamelado2]

Snipped for space!

I do believe drinking played a part in this but the only evidence we have of anyone acting drunk is that it was he: The man who had been belligerent all night.






3. It is not common sense to expect physical assault and/or murder or to try to prevent it when engaging with someone who is either drunk, angry or both because 99% of people in those states don't physically assault women or children. It's not in most people to do that no matter how upset or inebriated. And as to those who have already seen their spouses or partners become violent when drunk, see 1 and 2 above.


4. There is no evidence that Kristy was drunk. There is evidence that he was as he was belligerent and that can be a sign.


5. There is evidence that Kristy was in a domestic violence relationship. Why? Because the statement of the child indicates he has a pattern of being abusive (rather than that her mom was baiting him
as ive seen insinuated). Because she was murdered by her husband of over a decade. Because unlike a coldly calculated plan to avoid support, or get revenge for something, or to obtain insurance proceeds or hide a huge lie or wherever, sudden rage killings, which this appears to be, typically are just the culmination of on-going abuse rather than a sudden, unexpected murder.

6. The nature of this man is evident by his actions and words following the "accident". He tried to throw her body overboard. He didn't cry, "what have I done?" He cried, "MY life is over!"


7. We ALL need to do better in understanding domestic violence and supporting victims, not victim blaming and holding perps accountable. That includes me.

Let me start by saying that there's no excuse for what the killer did. Nothing was said that night that justifies murder.

That being said....

No witness ever mentioned drinking. By either party. Belligerent doesn't mean drunk.
bel·lig·er·ent


adjective

1.

hostile and aggressive.

"a bull-necked, belligerent old man"

synonyms:hostile,*aggressive,*threatening,*antagonistic,*warlike,*warmongering,*hawkish,*pugnacious,*bellicose,*truculent,*confrontational,*contentious,*militant,*combative;
informal spoiling for a fight,*trigger-happy,scrappy
"a belligerent attitude"

There is no evidence that anyone was drinking. I've only been on 2 cruises, but I didn't drink at dinner because the liquor on board was pricey (and we snuck our own on which we couldn't very well bring to dinner). However, I would assume that everyone was drinking if not at dinner, before and after. But I can only assume as the FBI document didn't say it and neither did the witnesses.

The truth is we have little evidence at all of why this happened. We have assumptions and random statements. For instance, the daughters statement that "I knew he would do this" When was it said? Before or after she knew her mom had died? If before, it could mean a number of things - I knew he'd ruin our trip, I knew he'd eventually snap, I knew one day he'd attack Mom.

I've said from the beginning this would be much easier to figure out if we knew the timing of everything. For instance, he said "my life is over" when the FBI was collecting evidence off of him. Which was like 12 hrs after the murder. And all things that people say he should have said? About his daughters and wife - did he say those things all night long?

So far I haven't heard any friends or family vilify the killer. That leads me to believe either that side of him was completely hidden from the outside world (entirely possible) OR this isn't completely cut and dried (an evil man killed a saint). Truthfully, I think it's going to be a decent guy didn't get help when he should have and turned into this abuser who kept getting worse and worse until that night on the cruise ship. But I could be completely wrong.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[gitana1]

Respectfully, in no way was I victim blaming, and I apologize to anyone who took my post as that. The "evidence" that he was belligerent all evening was from a supposed member of her family who was not even on the cruise. He may very well have been, but most of the "evidence" I have seen suggests there was an argument, and an argument requires two people. I was only speculating about the possible cause of the argument, and clearly said so. She did absolutely NOTHING to warrant being harmed in any way , much less being killed, and in the several years that I have been a member here, I have never been accused of victim blaming. But to think that he just decided to get drunk and kill his wife on a whim is to ignore the likelihood that he at least FELT provoked at some point. And no, feeling provoked does not excuse what he did, and he should pay dearly for his heinous crime. JMO

I don't think he just decided to get drunk and kill his wife. I think he's a violent bully. People don't rise to this level of violence without prior violent or abusive behavior. Oh I'm sure he "felt" provoked. But the only people who feel "provoked" to physically assault their spouses are domestic abusers. Not understanding that is part of the subconscious excusing of violent males or subconscious justification of their acts of violence, IMO. It's part of a societal narrative we are taught.

 

[bears10]

Some websites get automatically blocked with stars like that for some reason

 

[WVWoman]

Some websites get automatically blocked with stars like that for some reason

It it's an unauthorized website..or blog it is not allowed and will be all stars when you try to link it.


[emoji237]Always My Own Opinion[emoji4]

 

[human]

Yep I've been waken from a dead sleep when I had to work the next morning, by a drunk bf who wanted to perform drunken sex acts with me (likely knowing I'd decline) who then flew into such a rage at my declination that I ended up having to leave and sleep in my car. I was asleep! I did not instigate! He was likely more looking for a fight than a f*** and knew I'd say no so he'd have an "excuse" to blow up. And let's be real here--if he can't hardly walk how was he even gonna find my vagina anyway.

O/t I am so impressed that with your life experiences you have tremendous insight, are not bitter, and look at life with a sense of humor

 

[human]

What is the liquor situation on that cruise. Do people get "free" drinks depending on what package they purchased?

 

[Vedder]

In retrospect, I should have kept my thoughts to myself. Lesson learned. It saddens me that you or anyone could view what I wrote as victim blaming and take issue with what a child feels. I was not victim blaming. Kristy is the victim. My mother was the victim. I can say that as an adult. But children don't have an adult's education and experience with which to process their feelings. I felt it was important to speak to that potential part of this tragedy IF it played out that way. Is avoiding the possible appearance of blaming the victim more important than understanding how children may feel? Apparently. In any case, I hope I have now made my point more clear if there was any unintended ambiguity.

Again, with deep respect and affection,
Lilibet

RSBM for space

Lilibet, please please don't keep your thoughts to yourself. You bring great insight to this thread. <3

I've seen speculation or theories on other threads get jumped on as victim blaming, when clearly the poster is doing no such thing. If we can't offer life experience, theories, speculation and brain storming, why are we here? MOO

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Was his drink spiked? Maybe he mentioned it to his wife in the cabin and she couldn't stop laughing. Or was he on a new medication that doesn't mix well with alcohol. I've heard of people doing bizarre things on drugs and also on medication mixed with alcohol. IMO this isn't what happened, but it crossed my mind and I wanted to mention it.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

What is the liquor situation on that cruise. Do people get "free" drinks depending on what package they purchased?

Beverage packages on Princess: https://www.princess.com/ships-and-experience/food-and-dining/beverages/

Alcohol consumption is among the highest revenue-producing aspects of a cruise. DH and I only drink wine and will purchase a wine package that's available on longer cruises. We can enjoy the wine in any dining room or have a bottle delivered to our stateroom. I also purchase a coffee card onboard that DH and I can share for fresh-brewed coffee, coffee beverages (hot/iced), or premium teas. Passengers who purchase all-inclusive drink packages make sure they get their money's worth :toastred:

 

[Marmlet]

On top of the tragedy of a woman losing her life -- and daughters losing their mother -- in such horrible circumstances, I am SO sorry the media glommed his statement about her laughing at him. Who knows if she even did? Or if he's just a jerk who said that to try to excuse what he'd done? Or if he's a typical abuser who finds a way to blame his victim? Or if she did laugh, WHO CARES if she laughed?

He beat her to death, either in front of their daughter or within earshot...in a public place...surrounded by her family. I have seen HORRIBLE comments under mainstream media articles, from people who apparently assume that he's a poor, picked-on, humiliated husband who just finally couldn't take it anymore.

I've been thinking about it a lot, and I think it's because this murder is SO disturbing and hits too close to home. Nice family that we can all relate to...loving mother. Brutally killed with witnesses seeing and hearing much more than is usually the case in murders. I think people want to believe that there's a "reason" for it that can be explained -- he must have had more than he can bear...she must have provoked him...

Her "laughing at him" made a great headline, but for me, it's just a lame excuse given by a murdering husband, and it's cast an even worse pall over her already tragic death. Poor woman.

 

[Vedder]

Has it been reported that he had been drinking? Or is that an assumption on our part that grew legs?

 

[Tippy Lynn]

On top of the tragedy of a woman losing her life -- and daughters losing their mother -- in such horrible circumstances, I am SO sorry the media glommed his statement about her laughing at him. Who knows if she even did? Or if he's just a jerk who said that to try to excuse what he'd done? Or if he's a typical abuser who finds a way to blame his victim? Or if she did laugh, WHO CARES if she laughed?

He beat her to death, either in front of their daughter or within earshot...in a public place...surrounded by her family. I have seen HORRIBLE comments under mainstream media articles, from people who apparently assume that he's a poor, picked-on, humiliated husband who just finally couldn't take it anymore.

I've been thinking about it a lot, and I think it's because this murder is SO disturbing and hits too close to home. Nice family that we can all relate to...loving mother. Brutally killed with witnesses seeing and hearing much more than is usually the case in murders. I think people want to believe that there's a "reason" for it that can be explained -- he must have had more than he can bear...she must have provoked him...

Her "laughing at him" made a great headline, but for me, it's just a lame excuse given by a murdering husband, and it's cast an even worse pall over her already tragic death. Poor woman.

FWIW - My post earlier about the spiked drink and the victim "allegedly" laughing at him wasn't meant to imply she provoked him or to provide an excuse for him. There is no excuse. I was only sharing a thought that crossed my mind, that's it....nothing more.

Murder is disturbing and for me this one is even more disturbing. From the outside they appeared to be living the "American Dream". I feel so bad for their girls and for their family and friends. I truely can't imagine the nightmare they are living with and my hearts break for them.