AL - Karen Shahan, 53, murdered, Homewood, 23 July 2013 #1

[Elley Mae]

So it's legal for churches to own a street of homes and rent them out. If a church has non profit status does that mean they can't make money off of the the homes they rent. Who has the keys to these rental homes for maintenance and stuff, that could access the homes? This stinks.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Can someone familiar w. pastor-employment-procedure in Baptist churches enlighten us please?

From one of the MSM articles linked above, since early 1980's when Mr. Shahan was ordained, he served w. 5 or 6 different Baptist churches.
Is this unusual?


IIRC, 2 in TX, 1 in NC, 1 in AL (same one, 2 different times?), 1 in TN.
Is this unusual, the state to state to state moves?


I believe there were some gaps during which he was not serving as a pastor anywhere, but essentially self-employed, developing church related materials.

And then his work overseas for an entire school year?

Typically does each Baptist church congregation, select and hire its own pastors?

Or are the pastors "assigned" to local churches by a regional/ national organization/conference?

Finally, is pastor employment typically arranged thru an annual contract?

thx in adv.
-------------------------------------
Mods--
If asking if this is unusual is too close to "sleuthing"
I hope it's still ok ask whether pastors are "hired" by local Bapt. congregation or "assigned" from nat'l Bapt. org.

Thanks for asking these questions...

all of which I am very curious to know the answers to...

I know that in our Methodist Church... There are congregation invited "meetings" overseen by the higher district "supervisors" (word?) ...

In these meetings the financial situation... And the salary proposals... Are laid bare for all the congregation to see... And then it is VOTED on to approve the salary... (Of course the salary is within pre existing policy within the Methodist Church)...

What I am getting at... The congregation has to approve the moneys going towards the salary of the pastor...

is this the same protocol taken in the Baptist Church?

TIA...:seeya:

 

[pamlet]

It would depend on the constitution/by-laws of the church...

I do know every Baptist church I've been in the congregation would be aware and vote on Pastor's salaries .. even staff if I remember correctly .. as these would be line items in the budget.

Also - up thread it was mentioned that the houses were rented out .. I thought the congregation member that posted said the houses were used for staff / visiting missionaries and the such. No rent .. at least that's how I understood it.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Been a Southern Baptist all my life and this is how it works.

The churches are independent in all they do, but the stick to the Southern Baptist Convention.

We dont have elders, we have deacons. Our church usually has six active deacons at any one time but there can be more that are inactive for various reasons. Once you have been elected as a deacon and ordained, you are always a deacon and it is pretty much up to you as to whether you remain active or inactive. Most churches rotate their deacons. It is not a paid position. Deacons dont run for election, they are chosen and asked by the active deacons.

Men must meet the criteria of I Timothy, chap. 3 in order to be a deacon.

In our church, this is the way a pastor is hired. A pastor search committee is chosen. It is made up of the heads of various committees within the church including the head of the deacons. They serve as a personnel committee and when they find a pastor they like for the job, he will come and preach a trial sermon. The congregation will then go into an official business meeting and vote on whether to hire the pastor. This is the way every church i have been a member of has hired pastors and youth and music ministers. There is a personnel committee that hires other paid staff such as secretary, pianist, custodian, etc. that committee is selected yearly and voted on by the congregation.

There is no rotation of pastors as in some churches. As long as he is happy to be there and the church is happy with him, he stays. As with any job, pastors will leave a church, or be asked to leave.

Sometimes a pastor will choose to leave a position as pastor of a church and work in the ministry in a different type position for a variety of reasons. It looks like pastor Shahan had done this.

Most churches have gotten away from the past times where the church owned and provided a pastorium for the minister to live in at no charge. They now provide a housing allowance and the pastor uses that money to go toward rent or mortgage on the house of his choice.

Hope this helps explain some things.

Thanks K Rose! :seeya:

ETA... And all Sleuthers informing us of the procedures of the FBC...

 

[killarney rose]

In our church the pastors salary and benefits are set and voted each year when the budget for the up coming year is created. The church council does this and presents it to be voted on during the church business meeting. These meetings are monthly and all church members are able to vote.

In our church the church council is made up of the pastor, youth pastor, minister of music, chairman(head)of deacons, the treasurer, secretary, and head of each church committee.

ETA-we have two secretaries. One is the recording secretary that takes minutes at business meetings, etc. and the other is the actual secretary who has an office and performs clerical work.

The secretary who is on church council is the one that takes the minutes. The clerical secretary doesnt even have to be a chuurch member. We have had both in our church, members and non members.

 

[BamaGrl1]

Also - up thread it was mentioned that the houses were rented out .. I thought the congregation member that posted said the houses were used for staff / visiting missionaries and the such. No rent .. at least that's how I understood it.

I've seen this work 3 ways. My friend's father was the pastor of a Baptist church.

In some churches, he was paid a "housing allowance" much like BAH for military. It was intended to cover rent or mortgage, plus some towards the household bills. He could pick any house he wanted.

Some churches had housing owned by the church that the family got to live in rent-free (saved the church a housing allowance once they had paid off the mortgage on the house, though some still gave a small amount of an allowance intended to cover some household bills/expenses.) There are probably some churches that pay the main household bills like electricity and water too so they don't have to give them any sort of allowance.

Some churches own a house, but still provide a housing allowance of which they pay some set "rent" BACK to the church for the use of their house and the rest could go towards electricity, phone, cable, etc...

I'm not sure which arrangement this church had though. It's up to each individual church how they want to do it.

Also, nice to see so many fellow Alabamians on websleuths. :seeya:

 

[ClemiFern]

I've seen this work 3 ways. My friend's father was the pastor of a Baptist church.

In some churches, he was paid a "housing allowance" much like BAH for military. It was intended to cover rent or mortgage, plus some towards the household bills. He could pick any house he wanted.

Some churches had housing owned by the church that the family got to live in rent-free (saved the church a housing allowance once they had paid off the mortgage on the house, though some still gave a small amount of an allowance intended to cover some household bills/expenses.) There are probably some churches that pay the main household bills like electricity and water too so they don't have to give them any sort of allowance.

Some churches own a house, but still provide a housing allowance of which they pay some set "rent" BACK to the church for the use of their house and the rest could go towards electricity, phone, cable, etc...

I'm not sure which arrangement this church had though. It's up to each individual church how they want to do it.

Also, nice to see so many fellow Alabamians on websleuths. :seeya:

Hi BamaGrl1 and welcome! :Welcome1:

I had been wondering about this so thanks for your insight. The Shahans apparently received a little over $2500 for a housing allowance so I wonder if there's was a situation where a portion of that went toward renting their house from the church (since the church owns it) and then the rest went toward utilities, etc. I haven't been past the house but a friend of mine drove past and said it's not huge, just a normal size house. I can't imagine the entire $2500 going for rent but maybe $1200-$1500 of it would be reasonable for rent. Don't guess this really matters but just something I was wondering about and your post helped me out. Thanks!

 

[ClemiFern]

http://www.abc3340.com/story/23093960/rev-rich

I am soooooo confused!! This new article from ABC 33/40 in Bham says the hold window without an arrest is 48 hours. The local news source I posted an article from early this morning said it was a 72 hour hold!! You'd think the local news stations/papers could get their stories straight. Sheesh! Come on!

 

[QueenD]

http://www.waff.com/story/23083137/homewood-pastor-rev-shahan-questioned-in-wifes-death

This article says that Richard Shahan was held in the Homewood jail for a second day. It also says that he can be held for up to 72 hours. I know that has been discussed here and I wrote yesterday that I thought it was 48 hours that he could be held before being charged with a crime. This article clears that up and reports that it's definitely 72 hours.

Quoting from the MSM article above:



I do not know if the 72 hour hold includes weekends. Maybe someone else here knows the answer. I don't know if they have to charge him by tomorrow (Saturday) or if it can wait until Monday which would be the next business day. Just thinking aloud.

The reporter had answered that in a comment on the AL site. It was linked upstream, I read it last night.

Reporter stated it is "typically" 48 hours.

I was checking today to see if anything new has happened.

 

[SCHMAE]

He is still in the jail for investigative purposes? You know what , they are totally suspicious of him. If this was merely to get his side of the story, he would have walked ages ago. It sounds to me like LE knows who the suspect is and is waiting on test results of the perp to crack and talk . I've followed many cases with someone who looks so much more suspicious than this guy not spend ANY hours within the jail on a ' hold' of any kind, so they are on to something here for sure.

 

[Sulamith]

I agree SCHMAE. I was watching some of Josh Powell's interrogation tapes and he looked pretty suspicious and he just walked out, never held. Different LE though.

 

[ClemiFern]

The reporter had answered that in a comment on the AL site. It was linked upstream, I read it last night.

Reporter stated it is "typically" 48 hours.

I was checking today to see if anything new has happened.

Yes, I posted yesterday that the crime reporter said it was "typically 48 hours" and this morning a local news source (which I also posted) said it was a 72 hour hold AND NOW...another local news station has reported that it's a 48 hour hold and that Mr. Shahan's 48 hour hold would end this evening. So...I guess we shall see this evening or toward the end of the day if anything happens. Thanks

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

I am wondering if the hold time will depend on new information gleaned today...

Additionally...

I wonder if he was held last night so that LE could verify information received yesterday...

and so that he did not have access to "other" individuals so as to corroborate... Or notify.. Of what was revealed in the interview yesterday...

Just some thoughts ...

 

[al66pine]

So it's legal for churches to own a street of homes and rent them out. If a church has non profit status does that mean they can't make money off of the the homes they rent. Who has the keys to these rental homes for maintenance and stuff, that could access the homes? This stinks.

1.
Yes, in the US, legal for church to own and to rent out.
Someone way upthread (I believe a B'ham local, maybe a FBC member) mentioned, the church owns several or all homes on a block adjoining the main church property.
IIRC, the rationale of acquisition was (a) to provide convenient housing for visiting pastors or other afiliated persons and (b) for possible eventual use of the land for church's future expansion (my wild guesses only, a teen-rec center, class rooms, meeting rooms, etc.).

2.
No, church ownership of these prop.s does not mean they "can't make money" from renting them.
It can do so legally.
Misunderstanding re meaning of non-profit organization.
Nonprofit organization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3.
Keys, access for maintainance.
Maybe a FBC member knows and can tell us.:seeya:

 

[BhamAdGal]

He went into jail Wed. am so it's been well past 48 hours.

 

[Elley Mae]

al66pine, sorry, I didn't mean non profit, I meant tax exempt status.


http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

page seventeen talks about rental income and whether or not it is taxable. If I were in a position to pay taxes on something or not to pay taxes on something that I controlled (church) I'd think they would find a way to not pay taxes.

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1030

The potential impact of this shift on churches becomes apparent when one realizes that the average local government receives 64 per cent of its general revenue from property taxes and that churches own a vast amount of untaxed property. In 1976, one study estimated that church property was worth at least $118 billion (Martin A. Larson and C. Stanley Lowell, Praise the Lord for Tax Exemption [Robert B. Luce, 1969]) In times of budget difficulty, it is only natural that churches will be considered for taxation.

Not wanting to change subject, just wanted to clarify what I meant.

 

[txsvicki]

The article said the hold was based on his interview, and there would be another. Could the detectives have already submitted the case for possible prosecution?

 

[SapphireSteel]

LE are looking for his accomplice and he's not telling. :cow:

 

[ClemiFern]

He went into jail Wed. am so it's been well past 48 hours.

This is the latest I can find on the story:

http://www.alabamas13.com/story/230...pastor-held-after-questioning-in-wifes-murder
From the article:

HOMEWOOD, AL -

After nearly 48 hours in jail, Homewood police will have to decide whether to arrest or release Richard Shahan.

It goes on further state that he will have to be released before or when his 48 hours are up. The news source (channel 13) will have updates as soon as information is confirmed.

We should hear something soon.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

LE are looking for his accomplice and he's not telling. :cow:

The following is IF the pastor is involved in the "event"....

I think LE knows most all of the events...

They probably have a VERY good idea who may have helped him...

I wonder if they are bargaining... As we speak...

If he tells... He may get a break on his sentence...

Just some thoughts...