Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021

[IceIce9]

I would be careful to pin the blame on her.
The whole set was a chaotic circus.
Is the pilot flying with us? - one might worriedly ask.

Just attempting to determine where the tragic error began in the chain of events.

 

[happyday]

My Dad told me that when he was in the Army (compulsory 1 year), the Sarge always said:
"Once a year even a broomstick shoots by itself, so be very careful guys with the guns".

See this is why I think it’s time the industry stops using actual weapons while filming. They really can do anything in post production and make it look and sound real. I think on a film like this the thinking is that it’s more authentic and you get more realistic reactions from actors when using a real gun. Also the budget is a concern here. It’s going to be more expensive to use sophisticated effects in post production—a lot of it comes down to money. But they CAN do it and should IMO.

 

[IceIce9]

No, you don’t want actors who probably have ZERO experience with guns being responsible to check it. That would be a fiasco. That’s why there are specific people for that exact job.

Agree with you.

Actors act, directors direct, and armorers prepare the guns.

I don’t think actors on the set who are in character should be responsible for checking the guns.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I think the person overseeing the set is responsible.
This is this person's job and duty to make sure everything runs smoothly and according to safety protocols.
It reminds me of a position of a construction site manager - he is ultimately responsible for the safety of the workers. MOO

I tend to agree, but I am not an attorney. I’m hoping one of our attorneys will join the thread. Respectfully tagging a few. @Seattle1 @gitana1 @PrairieWind @Alethea @riolove77

A film set is an unusual place, where an actor generally has little personal responsibility for the props crew members put in his hands. When guns are involved, many other individuals are involved as well, starting with the armorer, who supervises the use of weapons and may provide instruction on how to safely handle them. Prop masters are typically in charge of the prop setup. The stunt coordinator is often responsible for stunt safety. Set safety as a whole is also usually the responsibility of the first assistant director. The first assistant director may conduct safety meetings before any stunt. Anything involving firearms is typically reviewed and checked before the shoot. In contrast, actors are responsible for acting.

Opinion | The unusual legal circumstances surrounding Alec Baldwin's firing of a prop gun

 

[DWebster]

No, you don’t want actors who probably have ZERO experience with guns being responsible to check it. That would be a fiasco. That’s why there are specific people for that exact job.

Soooooo, you are disagreeing with the actor's unions actual guidelines? lol. Any time a weapon changes hands, it should be checked, period.

At the VERY least, before you take a weapon from the person handing it to you, have THEM open it and show you it is actually a cold gun. We NEVER hand a weapon to a friend or family member without first opening it up and showing them that it is clear. It takes 2 seconds and saves lives.... and it is, apparently, protocol on a movie set.

Also, if he can portray a believable character handling and shooting a weapon, then he knows enough about the weapon to check the cylinder.

And why was ANY weapon pointed at ANY person?

Shortcuts and expecting someone else to take responsibility cost this young lady her life.

IMO, and all that jazz.

 

[happyday]

I tend to agree, but I am not an attorney. I’m hoping one of our attorneys will join the thread. Respectfully tagging a few. @Seattle1 @gitana1 @PrairieWind @Alethea @riolove77

A film set is an unusual place, where an actor generally has little personal responsibility for the props crew members put in his hands. When guns are involved, many other individuals are involved as well, starting with the armorer, who supervises the use of weapons and may provide instruction on how to safely handle them. Prop masters are typically in charge of the prop setup. The stunt coordinator is often responsible for stunt safety. Set safety as a whole is also usually the responsibility of the first assistant director. The first assistant director may conduct safety meetings before any stunt. Anything involving firearms is typically reviewed and checked before the shoot. In contrast, actors are responsible for acting.

Opinion | The unusual legal circumstances surrounding Alec Baldwin's firing of a prop gun

It’s true that a film set is unusual. It’s ALWAYS a bit chaotic, hopefully organized chaos but not always. It’s always very dramatic and tempers flare all over the place. There are SO many people with different specific jobs and you rely on each person to expertly do their job so you can do yours.
I worked on a movie of the week long ago where we were shooting a scene at a train station, we had to be ready as the actual train pulls into the station. My job was to supervise 12 adorable kids with Down’s Syndrome and keep them out of harms way (the tracks!) and quiet. That was my entire job that day. The train was 4 hours late! The director freaked every time the kids were loud—it was so stressful. This is one example, but it’s just very crazy on a film set on the best of days. When you’ve got a super young, inexperienced armorer and an AD with reported lax safety practices, it’s a recipe for disaster. The actor depends on these people to do THEIR jobs correctly so they can do theirs.

 

[steeltowngirl]

From CSATF, Industry-Wide
Labor-Management Safety Committee
for the Motion Picture and Television Industry

Bulletins 1 and 2 address firearms safety.

INDUSTRY WIDE LABOR-MANAGEMENT SAFETY COMMITTEE
SAFETY BULLETIN #1
RECOMMENDATIONS FOR SAFETY WITH FIREARMS AND USE OF "BLANK AMMUNITION"
BLANKS CAN KILL. TREAT ALL FIREARMS AS THOUGH THEY ARE LOADED. "LIVE AMMUNITION" IS NEVER TO BE USED NOR BROUGHT ONTO ANY STUDIO LOT OR STAGE.
These guidelines are intended to give recommendations on the safe handling, use, and storage of firearms. Firearms include prop guns, rubber guns, plastic guns, non-guns, flintlock guns, pistols, machine guns, rifles, and shotguns that shoot "Blank Ammunition."
The Property Master (or, in his/her absence, the weapons handler and/or other appropriate personnel determined by the locality or the needs of the production) will be the individual acting in the interest of the Producer for obtaining, maintaining and handling all firearms for the production. He/she will work in conjunction with the production's designated Safety Representative to assure that the following standards are adhered to.

https://www.csatf.org/all_safety_bulletins-procedural_guidelines-info_fact_sheets/

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Agree with you.

Actors act, directors direct, and armorers prepare the guns.

I don’t think actors on the set who are in character should be responsible for checking the guns.

This. Absolutely this.

 

[happyday]

Soooooo, you are disagreeing with the actor's unions actual guidelines? lol. Any time a weapon changes hands, it should be checked, period.

At the VERY least, before you take a weapon from the person handing it to you, have THEM open it and show you it is actually a cold gun. We NEVER hand a weapon to a friend or family member without first opening it up and showing them that it is clear. It takes 2 seconds and saves lives.... and it is, apparently, protocol on a movie set.

Also, if he can portray a believable character handling and shooting a weapon, then he knows enough about the weapon to check the cylinder.

And why was ANY weapon pointed at ANY person?

Shortcuts and expecting someone else to take responsibility cost this young lady her life.

IMO, and all that jazz.

No no, I don’t disagree with the guidelines, and the more checking the better. More training the better. But I disagree with holding actors responsible for knowing a gun is safe or not. A lot of actors will have never even touched a gun. And to give them the responsibility of ensuring it’s safe and not loaded would be foolish. I think you’re giving actors too much credit for understanding their prop gun and how to properly handle it. They are literally handed the gun right before “action” and they act. As if it were a toy gun. So the people who are responsible for preparing that gun better do their job. Maybe there’s a better way, but that’s how it is.

 

[happyday]

Production crew walked off Alec Baldwin movie set hours before tragic shooting | Daily Mail Online

More details...

It was a vintage Colt revolver

People yesterday were insisting they had information that it was a shotgun. That was obviously false.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Soooooo, you are disagreeing with the actor's unions actual guidelines? lol. Any time a weapon changes hands, it should be checked, period.

At the VERY least, before you take a weapon from the person handing it to you, have THEM open it and show you it is actually a cold gun. We NEVER hand a weapon to a friend or family member without first opening it up and showing them that it is clear. It takes 2 seconds and saves lives.... and it is, apparently, protocol on a movie set.

Also, if he can portray a believable character handling and shooting a weapon, then he knows enough about the weapon to check the cylinder.

And why was ANY weapon pointed at ANY person?

Shortcuts and expecting someone else to take responsibility cost this young lady her life.

IMO, and all that jazz.

You are making perfect sense, no question. Yet I am not finding a section of the guidelines that is specific to the handoff of the weapon on a production set, where the gun is opened and cylinder is verified.

Appreciate if you can guide me to anything specific, as I do agree it is the safest procedure. And the right thing to do.

 

[Dotta]

It’s true that a film set is unusual. It’s ALWAYS a bit chaotic, hopefully organized chaos but not always. It’s always very dramatic and tempers flare all over the place. There are SO many people with different specific jobs and you rely on each person to expertly do their job so you can do yours.
I worked on a movie of the week long ago where we were shooting a scene at a train station, we had to be ready as the actual train pulls into the station. My job was to supervise 12 adorable kids with Down’s Syndrome and keep them out of harms way (the tracks!) and quiet. That was my entire job that day. The train was 4 hours late! The director freaked every time the kids were loud—it was so stressful. This is one example, but it’s just very crazy on a film set on the best of days. When you’ve got a super young, inexperienced armorer and an AD with reported lax safety practices, it’s a recipe for disaster. The actor depends on these people to do THEIR jobs correctly so they can do theirs.

Those who dont work with kids always claim that they are too noisy
As a teacher I often go on trips with my class and the bus drivers always freak haha - even when my pupils are on their best behaviour - well, according to me
I salute your patience!

 

[Mo Thuairim]

From the below Deadline article:

Even before Rust went into production, a number of armorers turned down the gig citing concerns about the budget of the film and the sheer amount of firearms to be utilized, we hear.

‘Rust’ Production Company To Launch Internal Review After Fatal Accident, Possible Prior Incidents & Camera Crew Walkout – Deadline

 

[DWebster]

No no, I don’t disagree with the guidelines, and the more checking the better. More training the better. But I disagree with holding actors responsible for knowing a gun is safe or not. A lot of actors will have never even touched a gun. And to give them the responsibility of ensuring it’s safe and not loaded would be foolish. I think you’re giving actors too much credit for understanding their prop gun and how to properly handle it. They are literally handed the gun right before “action” and they act. As if it were a toy gun. So the people who are responsible for preparing that gun better do their job. Maybe there’s a better way, but that’s how it is.

Actors spend countless hours researching, rehearsing and getting into character. So it is expecting too much for an actor to take a couple hours to learn how to handle the potentially deadly weapon they are going to be running around pretending to shoot people with? Good grief, I think you aren't giving them ENOUGH credit. They load and unload and brandish and shoot weapons for scenes a thousand times, looking like they know what they are doing ... because they do. They are literally using a real gun (prop guns are real guns) for hours and hours and hours shooting scenes, loading and unloading, convincingly. So you want me to believe that the poor little actors aren't capable of opening the weapon and checking for themselves that the weapon is cold? BEFORE cocking that hammer and pulling that trigger? THAT is exactly why this young lady is dead, imo. A 2 second safety check would have saved her life. But that would be too much to ask of a millionaire actor who makes his money pretending to shoot people.

I bet if AB had to do it over again, he'd take that 2 seconds to open that weapon and check.

I don't care if you're an actor, or a criminal, or a firearms instructor, or a dad teaching his daughter how to shoot ... a 2 second safety check is worth the life of another person. Just Do It.

IMO, and all that jazz.

 

[Speculaytor]

The gun misfired during the week at least twice before the accident. It could be the same as Brandon Lee where a piece of another blank from misfiring was lodge in the chamber when a second blank was put in the gun. When it was fired, that lodged piece is what killed Brandon. So maybe we will find out there were not live bullets in the gun Baldwin fired, or has that already been reported and I'm behind?

 

[Gardenista]

Yikes, this was one month ago

Hannah had previously apprenticed alongside her dad who helped train her up, and revealed she had worried about working with blanks until she ‘figured out on her own’ how to make them ‘go when you want it to’.

She continued: ‘He took me from being completely green and taught me everything I know so far and by all means, I am still learning.

‘Dad has taught me everything but a lot of things I just kind of caught on by myself through observation, watching him do things or just knowing how the firearms work.

‘I think loading blanks was the scariest thing to me because I was like “oh I don’t know anything about it.”

Rust armorer was ‘new to job’ and worried she ‘wasn’t ready’ on past project

 

[Speculaytor]

I don't know of any reason real bullets, or loaded guns would EVER be brought on any movie set?? And if they are, that should STOP right NOW. A serious no brainer. I just don't understand this world anymore. It makes NO sense. And if it's because they want to make it as realistic as possible, they can do that without REAL bullets.

 

[Speculaytor]

Yikes, this was one month ago

Hannah had previously apprenticed alongside her dad who helped train her up, and revealed she had worried about working with blanks until she ‘figured out on her own’ how to make them ‘go when you want it to’.

She continued: ‘He took me from being completely green and taught me everything I know so far and by all means, I am still learning.

‘Dad has taught me everything but a lot of things I just kind of caught on by myself through observation, watching him do things or just knowing how the firearms work.

‘I think loading blanks was the scariest thing to me because I was like “oh I don’t know anything about it.”

Rust armorer was ‘new to job’ and worried she ‘wasn’t ready’ on past project

Great find. In light of what has happened, this is alarming. I think of Brandon Lee.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

From the below Deadline article:

Even before Rust went into production, a number of armorers turned down the gig citing concerns about the budget of the film and the sheer amount of firearms to be utilized, we hear.

‘Rust’ Production Company To Launch Internal Review After Fatal Accident, Possible Prior Incidents & Camera Crew Walkout – Deadline

IMO this needs to stop. No more real guns used, period. There are very talented people in the world who could build a vintage colt replica with the same heft but simply build it so not even blanks can be used.

 

[steeltowngirl]

“How are your gun slinging and horse-riding skills?

They’re always at the ready. I’m an actor of the old school. So if you read my resume — my motorcycle riding, my French, juggling, my horseback riding, my gunplay — is all right at my fingertips at all times.”

Alec Baldwin on Upcoming Western, ‘Rust,’ Croisette Memories and a Near Miss with Marion Cotillard – The Hollywood Reporter