All About Chloroform#2

[radio]

I do believe that you may be wrong, with respect.:blowkiss: The fact that someone, probably KC, was doing computer searches for chloroform is going to influence a jury.

I believe, also, that they have some more important information regarding the chloroform that has not been released.

JMO

Chloroform searches are pretty boring, but
if you do a search for chloroform pics -
gets pretty spicey.

I do not believe she searched that or anything
else in order to kill Caylee or anyone. imo

 

[Bev]

Look, let's go about this another way - if chloroform was used, why are there not higher levels of acetone/alcohol/chlorine, the components of chloroform? You cannot have higher levels of chloroform and not have higher levels of the components used to manufacture the gas.

Indigo, in ONE sample the primary compound was chloroform. Overall, the compound found most in abundance in the trunk of the car was gasoline as it was in the control sample of both the car and the garage. In some samples chloroform was not detected at all.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Yes - all good discussion here. Both sides patiently explained. That makes for progress toward something...methinks.

LE is gonna do due dilligence and follow-up on the chloroform...and they should.

We'd be free & clear if chloroform weren't produced at any level by human decomposition...aye...but, therein lies the rub. So we're left here trying to draw quantitative conclusions on qualitative-leaning information. Lacking some signature by-products from other raw mat'ls is the best indication I see of no Casey-or-other-brand chloroform involved.

Easy to see why anyone could still be camped out with the presence of non-HDE-origin chloroform. That's all good. What I'm hearin' is that we could debate it 'till the cows come home...and without more to go on than what we have...well...(knock, knock)......what's that?!?...'scuze me...

Oh, hey..lookit...the cows are home. :bang:

 

[BondJamesBond]

I like a good argue, but a debate will do.

*snipped*

Waaaay ot, but, reminds me of the old fav Dangerfield line..."I went to a fight the other night...and a hockey game broke out!" bada bing, bada bang, bada boom. :dance:

OK...carry on...'tis HDE-only chloroform, 'tisn't HDE-only chloroform....discuss!

 

[Bev]

I don't know with any certainty that she used it on the baby or not - I really hope she didn't, because breathing in homemade chloroform would be like breathing in fire, painful beyond belief.

 

[Rumpole]

Yes - all good discussion here. Both sides patiently explained. That makes for progress toward something...methinks.

LE is gonna do due dilligence and follow-up on the chloroform...and they should.

We'd be free & clear if chloroform weren't produced at any level by human decomposition...aye...but, therein lies the rub. So we're left here trying to draw quantitative conclusions on qualitative-leaning information. Lacking some signature by-products from other raw mat'ls is the best indication I see of no Casey-or-other-brand chloroform involved.

Easy to see why anyone could still be camped out with the presence of non-HDE-origin chloroform. That's all good. What I'm hearin' is that we could debate it 'till the cows come home...and without more to go on than what we have...well...(knock, knock)......what's that?!?...'scuze me...

Oh, hey..lookit...the cows are home. :bang:

I do not think Chloroform would be an issue, but for the "computer search" by KC. Hearing of that was what got my attention.
As soon as I read a fuller description of that "search" written by JWG. I switched off the chloroform alert, but it seems the bells keep ringing elsewhere.

 

[curiositycat]

Chloroform searches are pretty boring, but
if you do a search for chloroform pics -
gets pretty spicey.

I do not believe she searched that or anything
else in order to kill Caylee or anyone. imo

No, they are not all that boring. When we thought the head was bound with tape some of us did searches on "Chloroform and Bondage." :dance: What we found was not pleasant but it was anything but boring.

 

[radio]

No, they are not all that boring. When we thought the head was bound with tape some of us did searches on "Chloroform and Bondage." :dance: What we found was not pleasant but it was anything but boring.

You expanded your search ... which is basically
what I was referring to. I have seen what you are
speaking of....

 

[reeseeva]

Look, let's go about this another way - if chloroform was used, why are there not higher levels of acetone/alcohol/chlorine, the components of chloroform? You cannot have higher levels of chloroform and not have higher levels of the components used to manufacture the gas.

Indigo, in ONE sample the primary compound was chloroform. Overall, the compound found most in abundance in the trunk of the car was gasoline as it was in the control sample of both the car and the garage. In some samples chloroform was not detected at all.

Bold is mine.......Bolded sentence also makes me:waitasec: & laugh after all discussions of gas cans, stolen, gas cans in the trunk! Of course that would be the compound found most in abundance in the trunk.

I'm totally convinced with your explanation, & your previous post!

The one burning question I have is, will the test results from the Body Farm be allowed to be used by Prosecutors in this case?

 

[Bev]

Oh, yes those results will be used by the prosecutors! In my opinion, those reports are what is going to put her away.

 

[Indigo]

The FBI singled out chloroform in a separate test.


From Affidavit for Search Warrant:

Michael Rickenbach, a chemical analyst for the FBI laboratory, conducted test of the trunk liner of the defendant's car for evidence of chloroform. This was a result of Dr. Vass finding the chemical in his tests. Michael confirmed that residues of chloroform were identified within the spare tire cover (Q22, Q23, Q44) and residues consistent with chloroform were detected within specimens the trunk liner (Q24, Q25). This report is dated August 8, 2008.

p 3168

Why the separate test if chloroform is not important to this case? I can think of one reason: if the Body Farm results aren't allowed in as evidence, the evidence of the chloroform in the trunk will still stand.

Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

 

[Indigo]

Yes - all good discussion here. Both sides patiently explained. That makes for progress toward something...methinks.

LE is gonna do due dilligence and follow-up on the chloroform...and they should.

We'd be free & clear if chloroform weren't produced at any level by human decomposition...aye...but, therein lies the rub. So we're left here trying to draw quantitative conclusions on qualitative-leaning information. Lacking some signature by-products from other raw mat'ls is the best indication I see of no Casey-or-other-brand chloroform involved.

Easy to see why anyone could still be camped out with the presence of non-HDE-origin chloroform. That's all good. What I'm hearin' is that we could debate it 'till the cows come home...and without more to go on than what we have...well...(knock, knock)......what's that?!?...'scuze me...

Oh, hey..lookit...the cows are home. :bang:

Pardon my bold, but I couldn't resist, Bond. That must be what MOO stands for around these parts.

 

[LCoastMom]

When I read the 'chloroform found' report the first time my initial reaction was someone used it to clean the car, I guess cos I know it is used in dry cleaning. My 20 yo dd said "someone was making crystal meth" I have also since found out some crazies put it on marijuana for an added kick. There's a name for it but I don't know what it is.

The thing about this chloroform was it's purity, I'm not convinced that chloroform consistent with decomp would be called "pure".

And even if it was used only to clean the car, who keeps chloroform on the shelf at home? It's been illegal to possess here for almost 30 years!! It's volatile, unstable and doesn't store well. Like everything else about this case, it doesn't make sense!!

 

[Bev]

What in the report indicates its "purity"?

 

[Rumpole]

When I read the 'chloroform found' report the first time my initial reaction was someone used it to clean the car, I guess cos I know it is used in dry cleaning. My 20 yo dd said "someone was making crystal meth" I have also since found out some crazies put it on marijuana for an added kick. There's a name for it but I don't know what it is.

The thing about this chloroform was it's purity, I'm not convinced that chloroform consistent with decomp would be called "pure".

And even if it was used only to clean the car, who keeps chloroform on the shelf at home? It's been illegal to possess here for almost 30 years!! It's volatile, unstable and doesn't store well. Like everything else about this case, it doesn't make sense!!

I think the person who first used "pure" was NG. You could try emailing her?

The analysis for chloroform can say if its there and perhaps its concentration in the sample, but not which bottle it came out of?
Not even NG knows what she means herself when she says "pure chloroform" That would mean Chloroform and nothing else whic is silly and does not happen.

 

[Bev]

Hercule, I agree with you, we need a Nancy Gracisms thread.

 

[Indigo]

I think one source of the info about the chloroform being "pure" is Jeff Flowers - chemist.

<snipped>

Flowers has testified in state and federal court as an expert and said positive tests for vaporized chloroform mean those results could not have come from cleaning products, human body fluids or a mixture of anything else. Flowers said it had to have been pure chloroform.

"It could not have come from a chemical reaction in the trunk. It's impossible. That solvent could knock out the driver of the car. It's a very dangerous thing to have that material in your car," Flowers said.

He also said that these kinds of tests to detect vaporized chloroform are very common and admissible in court.

"I can name 30 labs in Florida that are absolutely scientifically inrefutable on that test. It's a very common test," Flowers said.

http://www.wesh.com/cnn-news/17392699/detail.html

 

[Rumpole]

I think one source of the info about the chloroform being "pure" is Jeff Flowers - chemist.

<snipped>


http://www.wesh.com/cnn-news/17392699/detail.html

I'd hate to put my chemistry degree 30 years ago up against an "Expert" so perhaps this is a mis quote or taken out of context?

As it stands it's nonsense and just plain WRONG!

 

[LCoastMom]

I think one source of the info about the chloroform being "pure" is Jeff Flowers - chemist.

<snipped>


http://www.wesh.com/cnn-news/17392699/detail.html

Thanks Indigo this is what I was referring to, I seldom watch NG and don't use her as a source ever!!


I took this to mean it was not something someone whipped up in their kitchen using nail polish remover...

I thought this was the way it was worded on the doc from the FBI?

 

[Rumpole]

A chemical analysis can tell you what, and what concentration, but not where it came from. Chloroform is chloroform, regardless of how it is made. Home made may be dilute and mixed with other things, but the chloroform molecule from that, when it gets as far as a detector in a piece of lab equipment, is just as much a chloroform molecule as the next man. No discrimination based on place of origin in the chemistry world.

The "raised levels" talked about in the KC trunk are still not necessarily high levels.
Even if there were VERY high levels in the trunk, who is Dr F, or anybody else, to say how leaky the trunk is and what, if anything, will get into the passenger compartment?