All About Chloroform#2

[fortytwo]

I think the person who first used "pure" was NG. You could try emailing her?

The analysis for chloroform can say if its there and perhaps its concentration in the sample, but not which bottle it came out of?
Not even NG knows what she means herself when she says "pure chloroform" That would mean Chloroform and nothing else whic is silly and does not happen.

She also said, on several occasions and not only on her own show (ref: The View) that the car was "saturated" in it.

OT: Hey, Herc. Wanna borrow part of my sig.?

I'm trying to start a movement.

 

[fortytwo]

First: Emma Chisset? (Thats Australian, you might need a babel fish)
Second: Where do I sign up?

1) free of charge

2) Speak up in your sig.

 

[Lanie]

I'd hate to put my chemistry degree 30 years ago up against an "Expert" so perhaps this is a mis quote or taken out of context?

As it stands it's nonsense and just plain WRONG!

Here you are, a chemist! Okay, if you don't mind, let me pick your brain. In your later post, you refer to chloroform molecules. Bev referred to acetone, alcohol, and chlorine as ingredients of chloroform.
Is a chloroform molecule formed by so many molecules of acetone, alcohol, and chlorine binding together?
Lanie

 

[Indigo]

A chemical analysis can tell you what, and what concentration, but not where it came from. Chloroform is chloroform, regardless of how it is made. Home made may be dilute and mixed with other things, but the chloroform molecule from that, when it gets as far as a detector in a piece of lab equipment, is just as much a chloroform molecule as the next man. No discrimination based on place of origin in the chemistry world.

The "raised levels" talked about in the KC trunk are still not necessarily high levels.
Even if there were VERY high levels in the trunk, who is Flowers, or anybody else, to say how leaky the trunk is and what, if anything, will get into the passenger compartment?

Well there you go. Thanks, Hercule. (bold mine)

 

[Rumpole]

Here you are, a chemist! Okay, if you don't mind, let me pick your brain. In your later post, you refer to chloroform molecules. Bev referred to acetone, alcohol, and chlorine as ingredients of chloroform.
Is a chloroform molecule formed by so many molecules of acetone, alcohol, and chlorine binding together?
Lanie

Firstly, I am not a chemist, as such.
Did the Uni thing, worked in a related field for a while a long time ago.
I ignored the Flowers stuff once before, but I can not see why it would not be seen as nonsense by anybody doing High School Chemistry.

Secondly, I really don't want to put on airs and be an expert in Chemistry or anything else. Just somebody who thinks about stuff.

Thirdly, I have really only noticed Bev today, and she seems very knowledgable, and I do not want to pick a fight there, or take sides in your debate with her. I suspect she knows far more than me.

You can look the simple chemistry up as well as I can.
There are several compounds combining chlorine, carbon, hydrogen. Depending on conditions you might get more or less Chloroform than other things with long chemical names with a "chloro-" jammed in that name somewhere. Obviously you need chlorine from somewhere, and Carbon and hydrogen, usually already linked together. For example Acetone or ethyl alcohol. The detail of which reactions take place under which conditions etc I would have to look up. All I have claimed is that some chloroform MIGHT have been formed in the trunk if there was source of Chlorine(bleach) and a source of carbon-hydrogen (Solvent cleaners).

 

[kiki the parrot]

What we know: a) decomp event took place in trunk; b) there was trash, along w maggots and flies, when car was initially towed; c) once vehicle came into possession of A's, any number of unknown chemicals or agents may have been used by them in an effort to "clean up" before impounded by police, after which; d) only evidence found by CSI remaining in trunk was mostly microscopic (dirt, hairs etc).

What we don't know: Beyond decomp gases, all of the other possible processes and/or chemicals in combination which could off-gas to produce chloroform as byproduct thus creating an identical residue, or contributing to this particular chemical signature. Until knowing more, we can only speculate but a few possible factors I considered include...

1. Black Flag and many similar household insecticides have as a main ingredient methyl chloroform, while various other household commercial flying insect killers (Raid eg) list tetramethrin as primary ingredient.

2. Cleaning solvents, carpet cleaners, and spot removers frequently contain methyl chloroform (or derivitives thereof);

3. Some pool chemicals ("pool shock" eg), when combined with eg calcium hyochlorite or bleach, can also produce chloroform. In addition many of the same chlorites, chlorates and perchlorates are heat sensitive compounds which I imagine could be activated eg during grueling mid-day, mid-summer temps in FL within aerobic, or enclosed conditions. Some of these (chlorine from pool eg if body and/or clothing were drenched) when simply combined w organic or bodily fluids, will also produce chloroform gases.

There has been no report thus far indicating any evidence was found of chloroform mixing by KC, ie containers, chemicals etc. This is not a complete list, other possibilities exist. Only agreeing there is much we've still to learn. JMHO

 

[okiedokietoo]

If somebody wants to do a bit of Sleuthing they might look into who this Dr F bloke is. Does he have any relevant qualifications at all? Has he ever appeared in court? (Giving evidence as an Expert Wittness, or in a more central role?). Is he even real?

I don't know about qualifications, number of Expert Appearances in court but was on NG in September giving opinion.
Aired September 5, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0809/05/ng.01.html
Below taken From NG Transcripts
GRACE: Let`s go to -- now, that`s a first. I`m going to an expert on this subject, when none of us are. To Jeff Flowers. He is chemical and technical director of Flowers Chemical Laboratories, joining us out of Orlando. Jeff, explain, would a -- just a nose test by a human detect chloroform in the car trunk?
JEFF FLOWERS, CHEMIST, FLOWERS CHEMICAL LABORATORIES: Probably not. These tests were conducted probably using gas chromatography analysis. So no noses were involved.
GRACE: Explain to me -- when you say how significant this is that the air, even the air in the car trunk was saturated with chloroform, what does that mean and why is that so significant to you?
FLOWERS: Well, chloroform is a very volatile chemical, but it is a liquid at room temperature. However, in a car trunk, it`s going to be sealed. It`s going to be not exactly air-tight, but it`s going to be close. And it would be retained on the surfaces of the rug and so forth that`s in the trunk.
GRACE: The fact that the air was saturated, what does that mean to you, evidentiary?
FLOWERS: The question that it brings up -- I mean, chloroform, of course, is an anesthetic. But it also acts -- it`s much more dense than air. So if a child was placed in the trunk and the room -- and the trunk sealed and it was saturated with chloroform from the rag that was used, there would be no oxygen at the bottom of the trunk.
GRACE: I don`t know what that means. You`re speaking to a layperson. As far as proving a case at trial, what does it mean the air was saturated with chloroform, even the air...
FLOWERS: It would be difficult to breathe in the trunk.
GRACE: OK. OK. How much chloroform would it take to cause the air in the car trunk to be saturated with chloroform?
FLOWERS: The liquid chloroform that would be present on the rag would be -- would continue to release itself as a vapor, and that would continue to push away the oxygen from the bottom.

 

[Rumpole]

A NG expert LOL

 

[Indigo]

Here are some interesting points from the Supplemental Report...

Compounds identified in odor from trunk:

Acetone--the comment here reads:" Acetone identified subsequent to database development"

Chloroform ---the comment here reads: "Unusually high amount detected; One of top chemicals in database (anaerobic formation)"

Napthalene--the comment here reads:" One of the top chemicals in database (anaerobic formation")

Indigo's comment here: Note the contrast between the comments on napthalene and chloroform (both found in anaerobic decomposition) IMO, this solves the mystery as to whether or not the "unusually high amount" is due simply to anaerobic formation. If this was the case, then the note on Napthalene would read the same way.

 

[okiedokietoo]

A NG expert LOL

lol hahalollol what's your point? she respectfully asked. Are we playing, debating or trying to liven up the thread while we wait for a new document dump?

 

[Indigo]

If somebody wants to do a bit of Sleuthing they might look into who this Dr F bloke is. Does he have any relevant qualifications at all? Has he ever appeared in court? (Giving evidence as an Expert Wittness, or in a more central role?). Is he even real?

Have you checked Mr Flowers out, Hercule? His credentials seem quite respectable. And I have to say, for your own good, Hercule. You have to stop watching so much Nancy Grace!

:blowkiss:

 

[Indigo]

I am not arrogant enough to bandy words with the real experts who authored the FBI reports.

However, Dr F is not making sense. If the quotes are really what he said, then I question them.

My apologies if my personal note about the contrast between the napthalene and chloroform were taken as part of the report. I went back to edit.

 

[Rumpole]

My apologies if my personal note about the contrast between the napthalene and chloroform were taken as part of the report. I went back to edit.

You didn't mislead, I was just making my point. Anyway it's clear in your post now.

 

[JWG]

Bumping this up ...

Originally Posted by ibyoungr
I just emailed Dr Flowers this morning and got back a response.

This is my email to him...



Dear Mr. Flowers,

You were recently on NG in September discussing chloroform levels. In the Caylee Anthony situation, the forensics have since been released.
Could you please look at those and tell me a little more about the concentration levels? Nancy Grace stated the air in the car “was saturated.”
Now that you can look at the actual forensics report are you able to determine if this chloroform was only from purchased or produced chloroform or could it have been an accumulation of cleaning chemicals, pesticides and decomp?

At what ppm is considered “saturated” or massive amounts?


I have paraphased his response to me here and how I understood what he said. I do not want to get in trouble for posting him verbatim

He bases his thinking on Henry's Law's contraints on vapor equilibrium levels to come to his conclusion....
**my notes:**
Henry's law is: "At a constant temperature, the amount of a given gas dissolved in a given type and volume of liquid is directly proportional to the partial pressure of that gas in equilibrium with that liquid."
To understand this read the link where it uses coca-cola as an example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry's_law


He based his thinking on the above law, his PROPOSED theory of production of chloroform from organic material (decomposing body) in contact with cleaning products.

The level of water concentrations fom the action of the chlorine(the hypocholorite=cleaning solution?) would control the vapor concentrations.

He then states the levels would be "immeasurable" (incapable of being measured as it would be limitless). So he states that a solvent(a solution that dissolves into another) is placed in the trunk.

After reading the report the his opinion is that the chloroform levels were higher than the level expected due to decompostion.

He is talking about the production of chloroform through chemical reaction in the trunk, and not about the pre-existence of chloroform as a constituent of the product, either dryer sheet or cleaning solution.

Also, I have trouble with the use of the phrase "far higher." There is no definition. Is it 50% higher or 5 times higher? No indication of this in the report.

Not trying to say KC definitely did not use chloroform, but right now as I read it the forensic report is too vague to draw a conclusion that eliminates other possibilities. I am quite concerned that the report is too easy to refute.

 

[Bev]

You know, I don't think that Dr. Flowers had the information that he would need to form the opinion that the chloroform was "pure". First of all, the air wasn't saturated with chlorofom - some samples were found with residues of chloroform, some samples had none.

They found unusual levels of chloroform, but compared to what? That's the problem we have with this report. The purpose of this report was to confirm that a human decomposition event took place in that trunk. Chloroform is a marker of human decomposition, therefore the presence of chloroform in any levels higher than a trace amount would indicate a HDE combined with those other markers of hdes.

Could she have used chloroform? Yes, there is always that possiblity and combined with the computer searches it would only be prudent to look at the possiblity. Since there is no overt trauma, looking into all passive means of delivery of death would be the smart thing to do. They also looked at medications and took note of them and no doubt took note of ALL chemicals in the household but until the reports are written, we just do not know.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Not trying to say KC definitely did not use chloroform, but right now as I read it the forensic report is too vague to draw a conclusion that eliminates other possibilities. I am quite concerned that the report is too easy to refute.

The doc dumps can't have the official lab analyses. It would look different. There should be detailed print-outs showing all found constituents and their values. The mass photospectrometers probably have their own software that creates printable results. They might even include unit calibration stats and data. I don't think we've seen this in any doc dump. Maybe the docs only show narrative cover letters for the actual lab analyses.

This is probably true for other lab work as well. All those analyses of hair from the trunk, a partial fingerprint from the trunk lid, swabs from the gas cans, etc. Those should have detailed technical data sheets and photographs. The doc dumps might be much bigger if all of that stuff was included.

 

[Indigo]

You know, I don't think that Dr. Flowers had the information that he would need to form the opinion that the chloroform was "pure". First of all, the air wasn't saturated with chlorofom - some samples were found with residues of chloroform, some samples had none.

They found unusual levels of chloroform, but compared to what? That's the problem we have with this report. The purpose of this report was to confirm that a human decomposition event took place in that trunk. Chloroform is a marker of human decomposition, therefore the presence of chloroform in any levels higher than a trace amount would indicate a HDE combined with those other markers of hdes.

Could she have used chloroform? Yes, there is always that possiblity and combined with the computer searches it would only be prudent to look at the possiblity. Since there is no overt trauma, looking into all passive means of delivery of death would be the smart thing to do. They also looked at medications and took note of them and no doubt took note of ALL chemicals in the household but until the reports are written, we just do not know.

Morning, Bev. ITA that Vass' analysis was for the purpose of examining the possibility of HDE. It's clear from reading the report, however, that chloroform was set apart from all of the other VOCs (aerobic and anaerobic) as being unusually high for HDE. (see the contrasting notes in the report on napthalene and chloroform--both produced in anaerobic decomposition)

Enter Rickenbach. His testing (chloroform only) took it from there--residues consistent with chloroform were found.

LE's search for OTC and prescription meds may have been due to Casey's ex's remark that Casey joked about giving Caylee "baby medicine" to make her sleep. Maybe analysis of the hair will bear this possibility out. I seriously doubt that residues consistent with chloroform will be found within the hair unless it was being recycled within the environment of the bag and absorbed. Personally, I don't believe it was a long term thing.

 

[Bev]

Hi Indigo, I read the report differently. I don't see anywhere in that report that chloroform was unusually high for a hde. I've read it over and over and I just do not see it.

I still believe that absent overt trauma of the body, that LE is going to explore all avenues of passive means of delivery, as they well should, chloroform being one of those.

 

[Lanie]

Firstly, I am not a chemist, as such.
Did the Uni thing, worked in a related field for a while a long time ago.
I ignored the Flowers stuff once before, but I can not see why it would not be seen as nonsense by anybody doing High School Chemistry.

Secondly, I really don't want to put on airs and be an expert in Chemistry or anything else. Just somebody who thinks about stuff.

Thirdly, I have really only noticed Bev today, and she seems very knowledgable, and I do not want to pick a fight there, or take sides in your debate with her. I suspect she knows far more than me.

You can look the simple chemistry up as well as I can.
There are several compounds combining chlorine, carbon, hydrogen. Depending on conditions you might get more or less Chloroform than other things with long chemical names with a "chloro-" jammed in that name somewhere. Obviously you need chlorine from somewhere, and Carbon and hydrogen, usually already linked together. For example Acetone or ethyl alcohol. The detail of which reactions take place under which conditions etc I would have to look up. All I have claimed is that some chloroform MIGHT have been formed in the trunk if there was source of Chlorine(bleach) and a source of carbon-hydrogen (Solvent cleaners).

So sorry, was not trying to offend anyone or make anyone take sides. You referred to a chemistry degree. If Bev has referred to any kind of degree in chemistry, I didn't see it. I looked up chloroform a few times, and all I got was sites on how to make it. I want more scientific info. I didn't pursue it at the time because I have to work, and while I am self-employed, I still have to have certain things done at certain times, and so I pop on and off here on 'mini-breaks'. I'll look it up this weekend, when I have more than 10 minutes here and there.
Lanie

 

[Indigo]

Here are some interesting points from the Supplemental Report...

Compounds identified in odor from trunk:

Acetone--the comment here reads:" Acetone identified subsequent to database development"

Chloroform ---the comment here reads: "Unusually high amount detected; One of top chemicals in database (anaerobic formation)"

Napthalene--the comment here reads:" One of the top chemicals in database (anaerobic formation")

(snipped)

Quoting myself here rather than going back. If you read the portion of the report I took snippets from, you'll see that chloroform is the only compound mentioned in the report as being unusually high. Context clue: NONE of the other compounds of either aerobic or anaerobic HDE are said to be unusually high. We can conclude from this that the chloroform is unusually high for all HDE.

If the "unusually high" level of chloroform was being described only to differentiate it as an anaerobic HDE, then napthalene would have been noted in the same manner--as unusually high. It was not.

The "chloroform only" test performed later by Rickenbach underscores this conclusion.