All About Chloroform #3

[MissJames]

FWIW,you can order chloroform over the internet.We had many discussions on this back in the day. You have to check off boxes about being a professional,etc,but it's the internet.
A producer from NG ,I believe,actually did it with no problem.
ICA didn't have to make it or steal it . I have no idea if she had any chloroform ,but it's not impossible. JMO

 

[Pink Panther]

What I understood ,is that ,for what Dr. Vass usually sees and/or looks for ,the levels would be considered shockingingly high.
For what the FBI expert usually sees/and or looks for ,the levels were considered normal.

My Primary care physician saw 100 patients this week and 3 tested positive for Rheumatoid Arthritis.That was shockingly high.

My Rheumatologist saw 100 patients this week and 3 tested positive for Rheumatoid Arthritis.That was normal to low .

It's all relative .Dr.Vass is a Forensic Anthropoligist dealing with decomposing bodies. From that perspective ,it was high.

Don't forget the FBI guy also said that he was very surprised to even find chloroform in the sample given that the carpet had been exposed to the air (without being sealed) for such a long time.

moo

 

[Marina2]

I have no idea where KC would have acquired the stuff and HONESTLY, I don't think she used it or acquired it or even attempted to make at home.

I'm starting to feel like this chloroform issue may be a red herring.

"Expert #1" = AV: says very new technology measured chloroform at shockingly high levels.
"Expert #2" = FBI: said the tired and true technology measured the chloroform levels at normal or very low.

I'm with thedeviledadvocate: If chloroform is heavier than air and it settled in the carpet, the levels in the carpet should have been just as SHOCKINGLY HIGH as the air sample...and the fact that the SCIENCE said it wasn't means this new method of testing air is NOT a reliable method.

Sorry folks...I'm going to place my money with the FBI Chemist and the tried and true technology.

The technology used to measure the chloroform by both Dr. Vass and the FBI was Gas Chromatograph/Mass Spectrometry. To say one used new technology and the other used tried and true methods is wrong. They both used GC/MS and this analyzer has been used for many, many years. It's said to be the "Gold Standard" in laboratory chemical analysis. The only thing new is Dr. Vass' interpretation of the results of the GC/MS as it relates to human decomposition, not chloroform. There is nothing new to testing air for chemicals.

I hope the jury listened well to the experts as they testified. They both explained what they used to measure the chloroform level, the GC/MS. One tested the level found in the air sample and the other tested the level in the carpet sample. As to the thought that there should be the same "shockingly high" level of chloroform in the carpet as was in the air, the FBI analyst himself testified that he was surprised to find any chloroform in the carpet sample because of the way it evaporates into the air. I'd put my money on what was found in the air, not the carpet.

 

[eleni777]

What I understood ,is that ,for what Dr. Vass usually sees and/or looks for ,the levels would be considered shockingingly high.
For what the FBI expert usually sees/and or looks for ,the levels were considered normal.

My Primary care physician saw 100 patients this week and 3 tested positive for Rheumatoid Arthritis.That was shockingly high.

My Rheumatologist saw 100 patients this week and 3 tested positive for Rheumatoid Arthritis.That was normal to low .

It's all relative .Dr.Vass is a Forensic Anthropoligist dealing with decomposing bodies. From that perspective ,it was high.

Deleted due to Marina2's post...

 

[eleni777]

The technology used to measure the chloroform by both Dr. Vass and the FBI was Gas Chromatograph/Mass Spectrometry. To say one used new technology and the other used tried and true methods is wrong. They both used GC/MS and this analyzer has been used for many, many years. It's said to be the "Gold Standard" in laboratory chemical analysis. The only thing new is Dr. Vass' interpretation of the results of the GC/MS as it relates to human decomposition, not chloroform. There is nothing new to testing air for chemicals.

I hope the jury listened well to the experts as they testified. They both explained what they used to measure the chloroform level, the GC/MS. One tested the level found in the air sample and the other tested the level in the carpet sample. As to the thought that there should be the same "shockingly high" level of chloroform in the carpet as was in the air, the FBI analyst himself testified that he was surprised to find any chloroform in the carpet sample because of the way it evaporates into the air.

WOW to the bolded, I totally missed that part. I didn't hear the FBI guy say that.

I've never heard of the air quality test being used in these types of cases.

I still say the chloroform is a mute point..Just based on the point that Casey is not sophisticated enough to plan that intricately.

 

[Tuffy]

FWIW,you can order chloroform over the internet.We had many discussions on this back in the day. You have to check off boxes about being a professional,etc,but it's the internet.
A producer from NG ,I believe,actually did it with no problem.
ICA didn't have to make it or steal it . I have no idea if she had any chloroform ,but it's not impossible. JMO

I doubt she could have acquired it legitimately. She would have left a paper trail with any company that carries chloroform. Did the producer do it without leaving a paper trail? I can't believe it could be a cash transaction. Did they say what company they got it from.

 

[Marina2]

While I don't disagree with MissJames, in your analogy both your examples are doctors using the same method to diagnose patients. If the same method was used by both "experts" testing for chloroform it would bear more weight, IMO, and a second testing would be needed to confirm.

My point is the opposite. Two different testing methods One is new, not documented and not used because it hasn't been proven to be a reliable testing method. It is an UN-TRUSTED method. The other is documented as a reliable testing method and is Used by the majority. It is a TRUSTED method.

AV's methods of "air testing" are very new and aren't widely accepted in the scientific community or the FBI and all Investigative Organizations would be all over using that method in there work. They are not. No one can forget that chloroform is HEAVIER than air. If chloroform is HEAVIER than air the carpet should have had shockingly high levels of chloroform also. It did not it was normal. Out goes beyond reasonable doubt.

IMO, this leaves room for anyone to discredit this method due to error in collecting samples, or how can you say the air in the trunk wasn't tainted evidence. The trunk was opened and closed numerous time BEFORE the LE took possession of it. GA and CA cleaned it and tried to get rid of the smell. The good Lord only knows what they did to try to get that smell out. Again, out the window goes beyond reasonable doubt on this point.

The Chloroform is a mute point, IMO. By harping on this point this also tells me that the SA only has circumstantial evidence...nothing solid except Caylee's bones.

Please explain what you believe the two different methods of testing are. They both used GC/MS.

The trunk may have been opened and closed numerous times. Do you think the level of chloroform would have been LOWER if it had never been opened?

 

[Tuffy]

The technology used to measure the chloroform by both Dr. Vass and the FBI was Gas Chromatograph/Mass Spectrometry. To say one used new technology and the other used tried and true methods is wrong. They both used GC/MS and this analyzer has been used for many, many years. It's said to be the "Gold Standard" in laboratory chemical analysis. The only thing new is Dr. Vass' interpretation of the results of the GC/MS as it relates to human decomposition, not chloroform. There is nothing new to testing air for chemicals.

I hope the jury listened well to the experts as they testified. They both explained what they used to measure the chloroform level, the GC/MS. One tested the level found in the air sample and the other tested the level in the carpet sample. As to the thought that there should be the same "shockingly high" level of chloroform in the carpet as was in the air, the FBI analyst himself testified that he was surprised to find any chloroform in the carpet sample because of the way it evaporates into the air. I'd put my money on what was found in the air, not the carpet.

I know I would too!

I thought it was silly the way Jose seemed to hammer on the point that there was more in the air, than the carpet. For a volatile liquid that is what you would expect, high evaporation rate.

I think he's banking on the jurors not being able to understand that.

 

[eleni777]

Don't forget the FBI guy also said that he was very surprised to even find chloroform in the sample given that the carpet had been exposed to the air (without being sealed) for such a long time.

moo

I missed that..which totally bums me out... I'll have to go back and re watch his testimony. But in the mean time.. if the FBI guy was surprised to find chloroform in the sample give because the carpet had been exposed to the air.. wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that the air in the trunk would contain even LESS chloroform?

IIRC, once the anothony's got the car from the towing company the car was in the garage with all the doors and windows open and GA and CA tried to clean it. By the time the LE got the car and began their testing the chloroform would have diffused.

jmo.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

I feel ICA was chlorforming Caylee.

Little Caylee is telling the story from heaven. During the video of Caylee at the nursing home where she is singing and reading her book, she suddenly asks 'Are you sleepy PaPa?' and pulls the tablecloth over her little mouth and nose. I just thought it interesting body language for a 2 year old to associate sleep with covering her mouth and nose with a cloth.

Whether or not the jury believes the testimony regarding the air samples is yet to be seen.

MOO

wm

 

[susan1122]

Don't forget the FBI guy also said that he was very surprised to even find chloroform in the sample given that the carpet had been exposed to the air (without being sealed) for such a long time.

moo

This is also what I was going to mention. He also said, IIRC, that he has never found chloroform before (in a non- liquid form, was that it?).

 

[Tuffy]

This is also what I was going to mention. He also said, IIRC, that he has never found chloroform before (in a non- liquid form, was that it?).

Dried. Which tells you how much chloroform was originally there.

 

[Pink Panther]

I missed that..which totally bums me out... I'll have to go back and re watch his testimony. But in the mean time.. if the FBI guy was surprised to find chloroform in the sample give because the carpet had been exposed to the air.. wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that the air in the trunk would contain even LESS chloroform?

IIRC, once the anothony's got the car from the towing company the car was in the garage with all the doors and windows open and GA and CA tried to clean it. By the time the LE got the car and began their testing the chloroform would have diffused.

jmo.

I'm not sure when Dr. Vass did his tests or when the FBI guy did his. Dr. Vass tested several SEALED samples however and that would most definitely make a difference. The FBI guy stated that he was surpised to find any chloroform at the end of his testimony on JA's cross. (So you don't have to watch the whole thing...)

moo

 

[Tuffy]

I missed that..which totally bums me out... I'll have to go back and re watch his testimony. But in the mean time.. if the FBI guy was surprised to find chloroform in the sample give because the carpet had been exposed to the air.. wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that the air in the trunk would contain even LESS chloroform?

IIRC, once the anothony's got the car from the towing company the car was in the garage with all the doors and windows open and GA and CA tried to clean it. By the time the LE got the car and began their testing the chloroform would have diffused.

jmo.

No, the assumption would be more. Chloroform has a high evaporation rate. That means that chloroform quickly goes from liquid to it's gas state. When it evaporates, it doesn't just go away.

Chloroform is also 4 time heavier that air. It quickly evaporated and hung low in the trunk, almost like a fog hangs above the ground.

So, if most of the chloroform had evaporated out of the carpet, most of it would now be in the air.

 

[eleni777]

Please explain what you believe the two different methods of testing are. They both used GC/MS.

The trunk may have been opened and closed numerous times. Do you think the level of chloroform would have been LOWER if it had never been opened?

IMO, if the trunk was never opened the levels would be higher. But a car trunk isn't an air tight sealed compartment, right? Although minimally, air can escape and enter... But the trunk had been opened and closed...and all kinds of things placed in it after the anthony's took possession of it from the towing company.

Before she ditched the car, what did KC do to try to eliminate the smell?

Before the car was towed how long did it sit in the amscot parking lot? I live in central florida the summer heat would have surely had an affect on the air, evaporation rate, diffusion rate in the trunk. Or could the intense summer heat and humidity possibly cause a small amount of chloroform to evaporate into shockingly high levels?

i'm totally confused now and I don't understand the science enough...I'll shut up now....thank goodness I'm not a juror.

 

[eleni777]

No, the assumption would be more. Chloroform has a high evaporation rate. That means that chloroform quickly goes from liquid to it's gas state. When it evaporates, it doesn't just go away.

Chloroform is also 4 time heavier that air. It quickly evaporated and hung low in the trunk, almost like a fog hangs above the ground.

So, if most of the chloroform had evaporated out of the carpet, most of it would now be in the air.

Oh I see..Ok...the heavier than air makes the difference for me...thanks!

Ok so now let me ask this.. if the chloroform is laying low in the trunk and is at shocking high levels, how come GA & CA didn't pass out from smelling it when they opened the trunk to clean it? Wouldn't Casey pass out from it too when she opened it to move caylee to the woods?

 

[Marina2]

IMO, if the trunk was never opened the levels would be higher. But a car trunk isn't an air tight sealed compartment, right? Although minimally, air can escape and enter... But the trunk had been opened and closed...and all kinds of things placed in it after the anthony's took possession of it from the towing company.

Before she ditched the car, what did KC do to try to eliminate the smell?

Before the car was towed how long did it sit in the amscot parking lot? I live in central florida the summer heat would have surely had an affect on the air, evaporation rate, diffusion rate in the trunk. Or could the intense summer heat and humidity possibly cause a small amount of chloroform to evaporate into shockingly high levels?

i'm totally confused now and I don't understand the science enough...I'll shut up now....thank goodness I'm not a juror.

Please, eleni, don't shut up about it. It's good to read differing views on this. It's a good indicator of how the jury may be confused.

I don't think the chloroform could evaporate into a higher level of what was actually there. I think the amount found it the air may very well be a lower amount than what was actually there because of the factors you mentioned.

We don't know what KC, or anybody for that matter, did to the trunk to eliminate the smell. However, the jury isn't to consider facts not in evidence. There's been no testimony that anyone cleaned that trunk or used chemicals in it that would cause a high rate of chloroform. There's been no testimony that "all kinds of things were placed into it" after the Anthonys took possesion of it. To consider this would be speculating, a big no no in deliberations.

 

[Soulmagent]

I found where people who build aquarumis use Chloroform .

If you need to cut sheets this link will give you the best info: Tools Needed for Working with Acrylic

Other than that you will need a packet of 5 ml syringes and 18 gauge needles. Buy the needles separately because 5 ml syringes usually come prefixed with 22G needles.

One bottle of Choloroform or Methylene chloride. Unless you work in a medical establishment, you may find Chloroform rather hard to come by, so Methylene chloride may be your better bet.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:THwNR4iV6LgJ:www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Gopi_Making_an_Acrylic_Aquarium.html+fix+a+flat+and+chlorform&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

It is used as a bonding agent so it can be found in tapes ,Glues. etc..

I just dont think this girl made Chloroform. She might have got it from someone who works in a pet store or builds costum fish tanks.

Being locked in the truck in the heat it still should had dispersed.

There are alot of question I have about why it showed up in the car after so long , the lab guy did not expect it to be in the car at all. Even though he was asked to test for it, also he was never asked to specificly look for it before in any case.

 

[Tuffy]

I found where people who build aquarumis use Chloroform .

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...d=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

It is used as a bonding agent so it can be found in tapes ,Glues. etc..

I just dont think this girl made Chloroform. She might have got it from someone who works in a pet store or builds costum fish tanks.

Being locked in the truck in the heat it still should had dispersed.

There are alot of question I have about why it showed up in the car after so long , the lab guy did not expect it to be in the car at all. Even though he was asked to test for it, also he was never asked to specificly look for it before in any case.

No, the lab guy didn't expect it in the carpet sample. The reason being, because of the volatility, it should have evaporated. Hence the high quantity in the air in the trunk.


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[Soulmagent]

No, the lab guy didn't expect it in the carpet sample. The reason being, because of the volatility, it should have evaporated. Hence the high quantity in the air in the trunk.


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I did mean to say carpet sample.

Even a very high amount should have evaporated.

I also looked into poor emissions of the gas to see if that could have contributed and I have found information that point towards a maybe but nothing concrete.