All things Joe Paterno

[Twindad]

Agreed.


It's too bad Kane's probe doesn't have the broader focus of investigating the entire history of the Sandusky allegations, or we may learn more about the Ganter meeting and Gricar's diappearance. As it stands, the 10/13/98 meeting seems like it will remain one of the unanswered mysteries around this case.

The 10/13/98 meeting may have had nothing to do with Sandusky. There were certainly other legal concerns PSU had with the local law enforcement. What else was going around that time? I assume it involved football as Gatner was involved.

If it was about Sandusky, it lead to continued cover up as Sandusky took victim 4 to the Outback Bowl at the end of the season.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The 10/13/98 meeting may have had nothing to do with Sandusky. There were certainly other legal concerns PSU had with the local law enforcement. What else was going around that time? I assume it involved football as Gatner was involved.

If it was about Sandusky, it lead to continued cover up as Sandusky took victim 4 to the Outback Bowl at the end of the season.

It might not be related, but the people involved, save Ganter, we all involved in the Sandusky investigation. It was at the football building, so it is very likely football was involved. It was also an "investigation," which is unusual for Gricar. He was not known as an investigating DA.

One of the problems is Ralston's involvement. He was not with the University; he was a State College police officer. When I first read it, I thought is was Harmon; Harmon was chief and it would make sense for him to be involved with policing on campus. Ralston could have been involved if the subject of the meeting (someone other than Sandusky) lived off-campus. It is still a huge coincidence.

 

[Twindad]

Is it reasonable to think Ralston, Schreffler and Sloane all would have been required to file a report about this meeting?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Is it reasonable to think Ralston, Schreffler and Sloane all would have been required to file a report about this meeting?

Not really. Sloane would be reporting to Gricar; the police reports are possible, but there was no report on Ralston's involvement.

 

[JaimeSommers]

Is there any chance this could have been about a football player on the offensive squad under Ganter? If the player did something downtown, then the SCPD would have been there, not University Police.

It might not be related, but the people involved, save Ganter, we all involved in the Sandusky investigation. It was at the football building, so it is very likely football was involved. It was also an "investigation," which is unusual for Gricar. He was not known as an investigating DA.

One of the problems is Ralston's involvement. He was not with the University; he was a State College police officer. When I first read it, I thought is was Harmon; Harmon was chief and it would make sense for him to be involved with policing on campus. Ralston could have been involved if the subject of the meeting (someone other than Sandusky) lived off-campus. It is still a huge coincidence.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Is there any chance this could have been about a football player on the offensive squad under Ganter? If the player did something downtown, then the SCPD would have been there, not University Police.

It could have been, but it would still be unusual for Ganter to be there.

These are two different police departments. And it involved an "investigation."

 

[JaimeSommers]

It could have been, but it would still be unusual for Ganter to be there.

Why? He was the offensive coordinator.

These are two different police departments. And it involved an "investigation."

I know they're different; I live here. Given some of the crimes committed by football players over the years, it wouldn't surprise me if it were an investigation. It also wouldn't surprise me if it were unrelated to a player and about Sandusky. Just throwing out options.

At first I was thinking that someone from Student Affairs would have been there, had it been about a player -- but (in the past, at least) the same rules don't always apply like they would for other students.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Why? He was the offensive coordinator.

Why would the offensive coordinator be involved in an investigation? Unless he was a witness.

I know they're different; I live here. Given some of the crimes committed by football players over the years, it wouldn't surprise me if it were an investigation. It also wouldn't surprise me if it were unrelated to a player and about Sandusky. Just throwing out options.

I've never heard of Gricar actually investigating anything. He'd rely on the police.

At first I was thinking that someone from Student Affairs would have been there, had it been about a player -- but (in the past, at least) the same rules don't always apply like they would for other students.

Yes, but wouldn't the subject of the investigation be there?

 

[JaimeSommers]

Why would the offensive coordinator be involved in an investigation? Unless he was a witness.

IF this was about a player (big IF), I could see the police meeting with Ganter and the others to say they had something on one of the players on Ganter's squad and how did he and Joe want to handle it? (Fran would then talk to Joe and report back.)

Yes, but wouldn't the subject of the investigation be there?

Not necessarily. IF this was about a player (or players), I could absolutely see a meeting in which the police might say something like (and I'm making up the details for purposes of discussion): "Look, Fran, we've been watching him for a month and he's definitely dealing out of the Crowbar. We need to bring him in. Do you and Joe want to be there? Should we have him come here?"

Or something like that. (Crowbar was a club downtown in 1998.)

Hey, I'm not saying it was about a player; my default at this point is that everything was probably about Sandusky. What I am saying, though, is that we can't always apply logic to our poor man's version of Opus Dei.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

IF this was about a player (big IF), I could see the police meeting with Ganter and the others to say they had something on one of the players on Ganter's squad and how did he and Joe want to handle it? (Fran would then talk to Joe and report back.)


Not necessarily. IF this was about a player (or players), I could absolutely see a meeting in which the police might say something like (and I'm making up the details for purposes of discussion): "Look, Fran, we've been watching him for a month and he's definitely dealing out of the Crowbar. We need to bring him in. Do you and Joe want to be there? Should we have him come here?"

Or something like that. (Crowbar was a club downtown in 1998.)

Hey, I'm not saying it was about a player; my default at this point is that everything was probably about Sandusky. What I am saying, though, is that we can't always apply logic to our poor man's version of Opus Dei.

Gricar was not known to investigate, and this was an "investigation." Even if was Gricar and Sloane meeting Ganter, I could buy this being about a player. The cops meeting with Ganter, I could easily see this being about a player.


I could not see the police inviting Ganter or Paterno to an arrest. In the Phillips case, I never heard of anyone from the football program being involved in the arrest.

Okay, was there any offensive player in trouble with the law in the Fall of 1998, serious trouble with something that happened in State College and on campus.

 

[Rlaub44]

Okay, was there any offensive player in trouble with the law in the Fall of 1998, serious trouble with something that happened in State College and on campus.

Funny you should ask - I searched the internet for that very thing when news of the 10/13 meeting first broke. I couldn't find anything, but someone more savvy than I might make a better go of it.


I don't know if back issues of the Collegian or the CDT would have anything relevant?

Now if a student lived on campus, but committed a crime downtown, is it possible the two police agencies would coordinate their investigation? And that also makes me realize that Sloane referring to the "investigation" doesn't mean it was Gricar investigating. Perhaps the police had investigated something and were pulling together with the DA to discuss whether charges would be filed. Ganter may have had relevant information.

The point is, it is possible that it was not Sandusky-related. For those of you that are leaning toward the meeting being about Sandusky, what reason do you see for Ganter being there?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Funny you should ask - I searched the internet for that very thing when news of the 10/13 meeting first broke. I couldn't find anything, but someone more savvy than I might make a better go of it.


I don't know if back issues of the Collegian or the CDT would have anything relevant?

I tried, but couldn't find too much. I thought you delved into that. Good job.

Now if a student lived on campus, but committed a crime downtown, is it possible the two police agencies would coordinate their investigation? And that also makes me realize that Sloane referring to the "investigation" doesn't mean it was Gricar investigating. Perhaps the police had investigated something and were pulling together with the DA to discuss whether charges would be filed. Ganter may have had relevant information.

Well, if the crime was portable, e.g. drug sales, it would be possible. That would not explain Gricar's presence too well. It is possible, but why wouldn't Ganter go to the DA's Office?

The point is, it is possible that it was not Sandusky-related. For those of you that are leaning toward the meeting being about Sandusky, what reason do you see for Ganter being there?

Two possibilities:

A. I think there was a witness to one of the 1998 shower incidents. Ganter? It wasn't rape, and I've heard it was common for people to bring their young male relatives into the showers with them. "Jerry's kids" were also known to use the showers, so Ganter might not have been too shocked. It could have involved the other victim, B. K., or another. unknown, boy.

B. I've heard a rumor that Gricar wouldn't prosecute if Sandusky "got help with the problem." I didn't believe it for months after I heard it. It could be true and Gricar was delivering the message. If there was such a message, that could have been the purpose of the meeting.

Either one of these possibilities has huge implications for the cases against Spanier, Curley, and Schultz.

 

[Twindad]

It seems as if the biggest event near this date was the Artsfest riot in July. Homecoming was after 10/13 that year. I did come across this: http://www.centredaily.com/2012/07/16/3262382/report-reveals-sanduskys-retirement.html

Maybe the meeting was about Sandusky's ongoing negotiations, keeping them "in the loop". It appears more and more to me there is something Sandusky has or can do which these men are afraid of. Could it be protection from someone more powerful or something of a more personal nature? Judge David Grine finalized his adoption of Matt.

 

[JaimeSommers]

Okay, was there any offensive player in trouble with the law in the Fall of 1998, serious trouble with something that happened in State College and on campus.

RSBM ... Nope; looked yesterday when I was hypothesizing. That's why I kept stressing "IF." Looked through the 1998 roster; pressed my memory to remember, but can't come up with anything. Rashard Casey had something in Hoboken at one point, but that obviously wouldn't be the 1998 meeting.

 

[JaimeSommers]

I could not see the police inviting Ganter or Paterno to an arrest. In the Phillips case, I never heard of anyone from the football program being involved in the arrest.

Yeah, I didn't articulate myself very well on that. I agree they wouldn't likely be invited to the arrest; I do think, though, that they could have been involved in conversations about how an arrest might be handled. Given how things worked here under Paterno, issues with players were likely to have gone to him and/or one of his coordinators before going to Student Affairs. That was one of Triponey's gripes about the football program; discipline issues were being handled differently for football players than for other students. (Paraphrasing, not quoting.)

 

[JaimeSommers]

Now if a student lived on campus, but committed a crime downtown, is it possible the two police agencies would coordinate their investigation?

I *think* it would depend on the crime. For example, if it were drug related, University Police may be involved (along with the Judicial Affairs office in Student Affairs) because perhaps a room search would be warranted. If it were an assault, I'm not sure if University Police would be involved, but Judicial Affairs would be involved.

The University's Behavioral Threat Management Team didn't exist in 1998.

And that also makes me realize that Sloane referring to the "investigation" doesn't mean it was Gricar investigating. Perhaps the police had investigated something and were pulling together with the DA to discuss whether charges would be filed. Ganter may have had relevant information.

Yes. And they would have done it in the football building and not at the police station or courthouse because it would have been easier to keep under wraps in the football building. Fran Ganter walking into the police station downtown would have raised eyebrows in this small fish pond.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It seems as if the biggest event near this date was the Artsfest riot in July. Homecoming was after 10/13 that year. I did come across this: http://www.centredaily.com/2012/07/16/3262382/report-reveals-sanduskys-retirement.html

Maybe the meeting was about Sandusky's ongoing negotiations, keeping them "in the loop". It appears more and more to me there is something Sandusky has or can do which these men are afraid of. Could it be protection from someone more powerful or something of a more personal nature? Judge David Grine finalized his adoption of Matt.

First, judges cannot order a DA around, outside of court. They cannot tell a prosecutor who to prosecute or not prosecute. In court, they can make a prosecutor's life absolute hell, but there are procedures for disciplinary actions. Grine was the DA in the early 1980's and he first hired Gricar. I have not heard of any bad blood between the two.

Second, if there was a problem, Gricar could first go to the president judge in the county, who does things like scheduling. At the time, I think it was Brown. Again, no bad blood.

Gricar's birthday was 10/9, I think, and 10/12 was Columbus Day, so there would have been a long weekend.

 

[Rlaub44]

B. I've heard a rumor that Gricar wouldn't prosecute if Sandusky "got help with the problem." I didn't believe it for months after I heard it. It could be true and Gricar was delivering the message. If there was such a message, that could have been the purpose of the meeting.

I haven't heard that Ganter was especially close to Sandusky - that could be one reason why such a message may get delivered to him. Otherwise, I would have thought it would be more appropriately conveyed to one of Jerry's supervisors (Paterno or Curley), not to his offensive counterpart, who would have been his equal on an organizational chart.

We may not know all of the parties invited to the meeting, but if Paterno were to be there, I imagine Sloane's tape message would have indicated his name rather than his less-famous assistant Ganter.

If the meeting were for the purpose of delivering that message, would you expect Ganter to still have his current position as Assistant AD? I would be surprised if he (or PSU) is waiting for the other shoe to drop while he is still employed.

Also, that seems like the kind of deal that would be kept quiet - would it make sense to have Schreffler and Ralston there? What could they add to Gricar's offer?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Yeah, I didn't articulate myself very well on that. I agree they wouldn't likely be invited to the arrest; I do think, though, that they could have been involved in conversations about how an arrest might be handled. Given how things worked here under Paterno, issues with players were likely to have gone to him and/or one of his coordinators before going to Student Affairs. That was one of Triponey's gripes about the football program; discipline issues were being handled differently for football players than for other students. (Paraphrasing, not quoting.)

I could see a football player, maybe witnessing something (not necessarily related to Sandusky) might go to Ganter first, especially if it involved another player. I could see Ganter bypassing Student Affairs and calling the police.

That still wouldn't explain Gricar and Sloane showing up. Maybe Ganter was a witness to something not related to Sandusky, but that is still a heck of a coincidence.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I haven't heard that Ganter was especially close to Sandusky - that could be one reason why such a message may get delivered to him. Otherwise, I would have thought it would be more appropriately conveyed to one of Jerry's supervisors (Paterno or Curley), not to his offensive counterpart, who would have been his equal on an organizational chart.

We may not know all of the parties invited to the meeting, but if Paterno were to be there, I imagine Sloane's tape message would have indicated his name rather than his less-famous assistant Ganter.

If the meeting were for the purpose of delivering that message, would you expect Ganter to still have his current position as Assistant AD? I would be surprised if he (or PSU) is waiting for the other shoe to drop while he is still employed.

Also, that seems like the kind of deal that would be kept quiet - would it make sense to have Schreffler and Ralston there? What could they add to Gricar's offer?

In this theory, Ganter might have been the messenger. Ralston and Schreffler could have communicated directly what they found and impressed upon PSU that the message had been delivered.

Yes, if this was a message, Ganter, who had no supervision of Sandusky, would not be in any position to do anything. He could call the cops, but the cops just met with him.

If this is what happened, you can bet the defense attorneys are in complete panic at this point.