Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #37

[minni]

Police identified what could have been drag marks near a dirt track leading into one of the creeks. They also found a mobile phone SIM card, but it was yet to be determined if either of the finds had any relevance to Mrs Baden-Clay's death.

We have heard the sim card wasnt connected but i still wonder about the drag marks and where they actually were

http://www.gattonstar.com.au/story/2012/05/03/police-find-suspected-drag-marks-near-creek/

Amee, who was it that said that? was it Alicat?
I remember in the first thread, someone saying that her husband always trekked there, or rode there or something? and they saw drag marks? I dont know if I am confusing the poster with Alicat or whether it WAS Alicat because I think she was the one who said before Allison was found that she felt very uneasy driving over the bridge. I wonder if they were near the LUC side, near the wire fence? but why would someone be walking there? Im going back to thread 1 to have a read

 

[minni]

I have another question regarding the boot of the car, that Mani brought up and made me think about. I think if I was going to take a dead body in my car through built up areas with lights etc, I would NOT put her in the boot of my car. I would put her in the back seat, lying down head up one end, feet up the other. and covered. Just in case, someone saw something, it might look like she was sleeping, or sick. And there was blood found near the door handle, I think, so this could be a possibility. It might be blood, or milk from a bottle, or another form of protein, or bleach even. They only had the car for 6 weeks, so it could be anything.

But in the boot, blood (or another form of protein) was found on the wheel hubs. I can imagine many things being spilt on the door handle, I mean, people spilt stuff all the time in the back of cars, but not so much in the boot on the wheel area. If the stains on the wheel area ARE blood, then he put her in the boot, not in the back seat, and he must have pushed her all the way in, near those wheel hubs, for blood to have leaked onto them. He would have (I believe) had to cover her up quite well if he chose to do this, so the boot would have been packed with stuff, like the toys?? and he would ahve had to cover her well.

Basically, what I mean is luminol shows something on the door handle in the back seat, and something in the boot. Allison's blood has been found in the car, so its one of these sites. Where did he put her to transport her? IN the boot? or in the back seat?

there are many reasons why protein will show up on the door handle, less reasons why it will in the boot. SO where do you all think he put her to move her? Or could it be both? in the boot to Kenmore, where his father says, ' you are an idiot' put her in the back seat?

Also, I still wonder whether he put her seat back into the correct position and her rearview mirror back into the correct position if he tried to claim she was the last to drive that car. Someone else drove her car that night

MOO MOO

 

[possumheart]

Minni, somewhere in MSM talking about evidence they said there was consistency with the car seats having been folded. Can't search at the moment for a link sorry.

 

[Amee]

The blood was found in a position consistent with the back seat of the car being laid down to create a larger boot space, Crown Prosecutor Danny Boyle told the Supreme Court in Brisbane.

http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2012/06/22/426781_crime-and-court-news.html

 

[Amee]

Amee, who was it that said that? was it Alicat?
I remember in the first thread, someone saying that her husband always trekked there, or rode there or something? and they saw drag marks? I dont know if I am confusing the poster with Alicat or whether it WAS Alicat because I think she was the one who said before Allison was found that she felt very uneasy driving over the bridge. I wonder if they were near the LUC side, near the wire fence? but why would someone be walking there? Im going back to thread 1 to have a read

I cant remember who said it originally but it was before Allison was found.
The drag marks for some reason have always kept me wondering.

 

[minni]

Minni, somewhere in MSM talking about evidence they said there was consistency with the car seats having been folded. Can't search at the moment for a link sorry.

Thanks Poss, if they were folded, her head could easily have rested near the door handle, but at the end of the day, the blood found in the car that belonged to Allison could easily be in either location, door handle or wheel hub.


Why fold the seats down and put her in the boot? why not in the back seats? Unless there was a lot of blood, and she was wrapped up in a tarp or something and he didnt want to transfer evidence? Thinking from my own point of view, I would have put her in the back, but now, trying to think from his, I see it differently, and I sound uncaring talking like this, sorry if I offend, I am trying to understand where and why he moved her body in a particular spot, as opposed to another spo

maybe he might have thought the carpeted boot is easier to clean than seats that fluid could sink right into. He might have filled the boot FULL of things, toys etc, to look like there was a heap of stuff in there and put her at the bottom.

Not a nice thought, but if he did wrap her in a tarp, then I can see the boot being within his train of thought, not sure why, but it feels morbid to think about it, like a tarp wrapped 'item' should go in a boot for storage...yet a person goes into a seat, and he may not have been thinking about her as a person at this point, just as something that needed to be got rid of.

I know this sounds callous and awful, but his frame of mind at that point must have been, 'I have to get rid of this without making a mess'. I think with those thoughts in mind, he would use the boot.

 

[BreakingNews]

Lime also aids in decomposition and makes it less smelly.

That's right Possumheart. I use lime all the time in my compost bin - decomposes and takes away the smell. But why would GBC do that? And did he have the forethought to bring along some lime. Or maybe he googled the lime thing as media wasn't told. I had a policeman boyfriend once who told me police can smell a dead human from quite a distance. Maybe GBC knew that.

Using lime seems to rule out the insurance claim theory. Then again, GBC might have seen that as an added bonus.

 

[possumheart]

Not a nice thought, but if he did wrap her in a tarp, then I can see the boot being within his train of thought, not sure why, but it feels morbid to think about it, like a tarp wrapped 'item' should go in a boot for storage...yet a person goes into a seat, and he may not have been thinking about her as a person at this point, just as something that needed to be got rid of.

And if there was a plastic bag over her head, this would further serve to depersonalize the body, as previously discussed.

 

[possumheart]

That's right Possumheart. I use lime all the time in my compost bin - decomposes and takes away the smell. But why would GBC do that? And did he have the forethought to bring along some lime. Or maybe he googled the lime thing as media wasn't told. I had a policeman boyfriend once who told me police can smell a dead human from quite a distance. Maybe GBC knew that.

Using lime seems to rule out the insurance claim theory. Then again, GBC might have seen that as an added bonus.

I was thinking NBC could have supplied the lime. I am sure he would have had experience with decomposing wildlife/roadkill in both Zim and Withcott.

On another note, hasn't there been mention of detective activity around a small bridge near a garden centre in Brookfield?

 

[frustrated detective]

That's right Possumheart. I use lime all the time in my compost bin - decomposes and takes away the smell. But why would GBC do that? And did he have the forethought to bring along some lime. Or maybe he googled the lime thing as media wasn't told. I had a policeman boyfriend once who told me police can smell a dead human from quite a distance. Maybe GBC knew that.

Using lime seems to rule out the insurance claim theory. Then again, GBC might have seen that as an added bonus.

Would lime cause a body to decompose completely, or would there still be bones remaining that could be used for DNA identification?

 

[minni]

I found the post from Alicat about the bridge...Interesting, she talks about feeling uneasy NEAR the overpass...not exactly on the bridge...

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7846750&postcount=175"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, 43, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012[/ame]


here is any interesting report. It mentions drag marks 'on a dirt track' leading into 'one of the creeks'


Police identified what could have been drag marks near a dirt track leading into one of the creeks.

http://www.thechronicle.com.au/story/2012/05/03/police-find-suspected-drag-marks-near-creek/

and I found the post from Alicat about her husbands ride: My husband went for a mountain bike ride up there on the weekend and I didn't know he was going there at the time, but I asked him if he saw anything suspicious. He said it looked as though someone had trekked through there but thought it may have been animals.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7876702&postcount=399"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, 43, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 - #3[/ame]

So I don't know where the husband went riding or if it coincides with the area on Wirra Burra

 

[DrWatson]

For those discussing the blood in the back of the Captiva, which the prosecution alleges belonged to Allison - just a reminder that there is no reliable way as far as I have been able to find out by which to age or date bloodstains, once it gets beyond the first hour or two and the clotting mechanisms have done their thing. During the coagulation phase, it is possible to tell if blood is fresh or a few hours old. But once beyond that, then the blood could have got there at any time since they owned the car.

As has been mentioned before - she could have had a simple nose bleed weeks earlier.

While I agree that is unlikely, it has to be borne in mind. And of course the defence will make much of that, I presume.

The other thing that comes to mind with the recent discussion here as to where Allison was put (as opposed to where she ended up) is that a forced journey along either Kholo Creek or Little Ugly Creek would involve immense water pressure and flow pushing her along, but with numerous snags, rocks, and trees along the way. I would have thought that the further she came, the more likely there would be post-mortem injuries, especially to limbs eg arms, from the "journey". Yet the defence claimed at the bail hearing that the only sign of injury was the chipped tooth. That's one of the reasons why I lean towards the Little Ugly Creek dumping point, near the "parking area" as it is relatively close to the final resting position. A rapid journey on the fast-flowing current all the way from Wirrabara Road would involve a much greater chance of post-mortem injuries, I would have thought, if the body would have even got all the way through from there. I'm keeping an open mind on that drop-off point.

I wonder if the defence will change their strategy and claims once all the prosecution material becomes available on Monday? And I wonder if or when we'll get to find out?

 

[Makara]

I have wondered several times about lime. Interesting that it came up again.
Probably a coincidence.

The mention of lime is interesting. I wonder if Allison's body showed signs of lime burning and this is how the police knew immediately that she was murdered? I found the following information interesting.

MOO and speculation only.


http://the7thwreck.wordpress.com/2005/12/25/why-not-to-use-quicklime-to-dispose-of-a-corpse/

For all practical purposes there are three states in which lime ( CaO ) is commonly encountered.

1. QUICKLIME = Produced by strongly heating limestone to form CalciumOxide
: It has the appearance of irregular white lumps

2. SLAKED LIME = Calcium Hydroxide
: This chemical is the product of Quicklime + Water, its a dry white powder

3. CHLORINATED LIME = This is the product of the action of chlorine gas on slaked lime
: At one time it was widely used as a disinfectant

O.k. When a body is buried in quicklime which is then slaked with water, only a small degree of superficial ‘Burning’ will result, and the intense heat generated by the chemical reaction will simply dry out, or ‘mummify’ a certain amount of the body tissue.
When slaking occurs gradually by absorbing the water from the body itself or from the surrounding soil, there will again be parcial desiccation (drying out) of the tissues.
In both of these instances the effect will be to prevent putrefaction ( something that no murderer wants, especially if trying to dispose of a corpse!) and effectively ‘preserve’ the body against external decomposing agents which would have been at work if quicklime was not used.
In the case of Chlorinated lime, the effect is much the same, though it is used more often because of its disinfectant properties which serve to mask effectively the stench of decomposing flesh.

 

[BreakingNews]

Would lime cause a body to decompose completely, or would there still be bones remaining that could be used for DNA identification?

I'm not sure if lime decomposes completely. I doubt it. I can't be tooo potent because my beagle has eaten his fare share when he gets a chance at raiding the compost.

Yes, NBC would know all about lime with his hunting etc. I'd not thought about that.

 

[Makara]

I've just taken a screen cap of the recovery stretcher under the bridge. Minni and Mani wanted this pic last weekend but I didn't have time to do it for them. I'm assuming the stretcher would have left indents in the mud. Are they still visible in the recent photos?



http://au.news.yahoo.com/video/national/watch/29132300/body-found-in-baden-clay-search/

 

[minni]

For those discussing the blood in the back of the Captiva, which the prosecution alleges belonged to Allison - just a reminder that there is no reliable way as far as I have been able to find out by which to age or date bloodstains, once it gets beyond the first hour or two and the clotting mechanisms have done their thing. During the coagulation phase, it is possible to tell if blood is fresh or a few hours old. But once beyond that, then the blood could have got there at any time since they owned the car.

As has been mentioned before - she could have had a simple nose bleed weeks earlier.

While I agree that is unlikely, it has to be borne in mind. And of course the defence will make much of that, I presume.

The other thing that comes to mind with the recent discussion here as to where Allison was put (as opposed to where she ended up) is that a forced journey along either Kholo Creek or Little Ugly Creek would involve immense water pressure and flow pushing her along, but with numerous snags, rocks, and trees along the way. I would have thought that the further she came, the more likely there would be post-mortem injuries, especially to limbs eg arms, from the "journey". Yet the defence claimed at the bail hearing that the only sign of injury was the chipped tooth. That's one of the reasons why I lean towards the Little Ugly Creek dumping point, near the "parking area" as it is relatively close to the final resting position. A rapid journey on the fast-flowing current all the way from Wirrabara Road would involve a much greater chance of post-mortem injuries, I would have thought, if the body would have even got all the way through from there. I'm keeping an open mind on that drop-off point.

I wonder if the defence will change their strategy and claims once all the prosecution material becomes available on Monday? And I wonder if or when we'll get to find out?

Thanks Doc, so, what you are saying is that, as there are two locations in the car where Allison may have bled, its impossible to say which location it is, or whether it has anything to do with the night she was murdered. (even though a nose bleed does not fit well with the locations, there could be other older reasons for the blood that was found). It still has to be an incident that caused Allison to bleed within the last 6 weeks of her life as they only had the car that long.

So this blood evidence (at least to our uninformed eyes) is circumstantial, and cant really prove anything with out doubt. But we dont really know what it has told the detectives. I am good with that, and agree with you. I still need to go over the possibilities, even knowing we cant answer this question, its necessary for me to try and dissect it anyway

As far as the location of the final resting place, I have always believed she was placed at the bridge, and been unnaturally narrowminded about it. 1, because how coincidental to end up there, and 2. where are the quite extensive injuries from being buffered all over in a raging ?


but now I am expanding my thoughts and trying to see how this could be so. The latest theory of Wirra Burra and the new photos (thanks Wakeskate) makes very much sense.

One last thing Doc...in regards to the post mortem injuries and the general decomposition that you would expect after 11 days.

How could they have stated so quickly that
1: it was a homicide?
2: there were no visible signs of foul play?
3: how do they differentiate between injury peri mortem, injury premortem (anti..whatever) and injury postmortem, so quickly???
4: why the tooth injury? Imagine the state of a body after 11 days? how come the tooth could not be classed as injury postmortem if they believe she washed down in a fast moving filled with rocks, branches snags, and big giant pylons?
and, what is the difference between a body that is submerged and has one which has been left on dry land? what happens to a body that has been submerged, before adipocere starts?

ok, well I am sorry, I have a million questions!! I know they have all been asked many times and we are at the stage of rehashing (Still)

but thanks if you have the answers to any of these people, and Doc for the medical ones

 

[CJ60]

The mention of lime is interesting. I wonder if Allison's body showed signs of lime burning and this is how the police knew immediately that she was murdered? I found the following information interesting.

MOO and speculation only.


http://the7thwreck.wordpress.com/2005/12/25/why-not-to-use-quicklime-to-dispose-of-a-corpse/

For all practical purposes there are three states in which lime ( CaO ) is commonly encountered.

1. QUICKLIME = Produced by strongly heating limestone to form CalciumOxide
: It has the appearance of irregular white lumps

2. SLAKED LIME = Calcium Hydroxide
: This chemical is the product of Quicklime + Water, its a dry white powder

3. CHLORINATED LIME = This is the product of the action of chlorine gas on slaked lime
: At one time it was widely used as a disinfectant

O.k. When a body is buried in quicklime which is then slaked with water, only a small degree of superficial ‘Burning’ will result, and the intense heat generated by the chemical reaction will simply dry out, or ‘mummify’ a certain amount of the body tissue.
When slaking occurs gradually by absorbing the water from the body itself or from the surrounding soil, there will again be parcial desiccation (drying out) of the tissues.
In both of these instances the effect will be to prevent putrefaction ( something that no murderer wants, especially if trying to dispose of a corpse!) and effectively ‘preserve’ the body against external decomposing agents which would have been at work if quicklime was not used.
In the case of Chlorinated lime, the effect is much the same, though it is used more often because of its disinfectant properties which serve to mask effectively the stench of decomposing flesh.

And lime is something you might have sitting in your garden shed...I know that we have it, because of the clay soil out here.

Not that I'm saying GBC or NBC had lime in their sheds...

JMO on whether people would have a bag of lime handy...

 

[Mountain Misst]

Are you saying that perhaps the murderer covered the body in lime at that location?

There would not be any residue of lime if it had been laid down prior to all that rain before Allison's body was discovered.

Any lime traces/residue around today would be as a result of some need to mark a trail or a purposeful marking by SES perhaps (I think their tape was in the vicinity). It is used specifically because it dissolves with a good drenching and does no damage to the environment.

I think the comment re decomposition was a general comment and not meant as specific to Allison.

 

[minni]

The mention of lime is interesting. I wonder if Allison's body showed signs of lime burning and this is how the police knew immediately that she was murdered? I found the following information interesting.

MOO and speculation only.


http://the7thwreck.wordpress.com/2005/12/25/why-not-to-use-quicklime-to-dispose-of-a-corpse/

For all practical purposes there are three states in which lime ( CaO ) is commonly encountered.

1. QUICKLIME = Produced by strongly heating limestone to form CalciumOxide
: It has the appearance of irregular white lumps

2. SLAKED LIME = Calcium Hydroxide
: This chemical is the product of Quicklime + Water, its a dry white powder

3. CHLORINATED LIME = This is the product of the action of chlorine gas on slaked lime
: At one time it was widely used as a disinfectant

O.k. When a body is buried in quicklime which is then slaked with water, only a small degree of superficial ‘Burning’ will result, and the intense heat generated by the chemical reaction will simply dry out, or ‘mummify’ a certain amount of the body tissue.
When slaking occurs gradually by absorbing the water from the body itself or from the surrounding soil, there will again be parcial desiccation (drying out) of the tissues.
In both of these instances the effect will be to prevent putrefaction ( something that no murderer wants, especially if trying to dispose of a corpse!) and effectively ‘preserve’ the body against external decomposing agents which would have been at work if quicklime was not used.
In the case of Chlorinated lime, the effect is much the same, though it is used more often because of its disinfectant properties which serve to mask effectively the stench of decomposing flesh.

So, Makara, is dissolution of the body only for the flesh??? do you know it it eats away at the skeleton? I remember reading that lye, or lime or even acid will stop putrefaction...what happens to the skeleton?

there was a man here in Cairns last year who murdered his wife then disposed of her body in a tub of acid..he was charged with murder and interfering with a corpse too.

 

[CJ60]

I've just taken a screen cap of the recovery stretcher under the bridge. Minni and Mani wanted this pic last weekend but I didn't have time to do it for them. I'm assuming the stretcher would have left indents in the mud. Are they still visible in the recent photos?

View attachment 25796

http://au.news.yahoo.com/video/national/watch/29132300/body-found-in-baden-clay-search/

Thanks for this Makara...

So is this area where you took your mud shots from, Mani and Minni?