Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #40

[Flinders]

I have almost caught up on the last 6 pages. Good to see you back Trooper, Amee and all from April and May. I have very strong thoughts however Watsion Institute is on my shoulder saying... Subjudice. Told hubby last night of the last three pages I had caught up on and my thoughts on that. He said it's a free a country just say what you want. Uhmmmm it's not, you are talking about the USA. Yep... he had heard that on tv... Not google.

<modsnip>. :seeya:

 

[marlywings]

There's quite a bit of info on the following links which WS admin have been referring to re subjudice...

http://www.thenewsmanual.net/Resources/sub_judice_chart_01.html

http://www.thenewsmanual.net/Resources/medialaw_in_australia_03.html

 

[Flinders]

Thanks Amee. At this stage I can't see anyone getting verified because you could be called as a witness. However, my thoughts are with a mother who loved her daughters and shared her love of dancing. A mother who shied away from gossip ie. notorious tuckshops in the whole country. Stayed true to her moral compass... The love of her children before her. As a woman we all want to feel loved. Budgets are tight and she focused on her daughters and her family and her husband. Plus I am so mad that one of their names is now in MSM as part of bail. I am am not the judge, jury of the BC's.
Doc, is it true that an overdose of Zoloft is extremely rare only happening to 1 percent of the population that even try to overdose.

 

[Mountain Misst]

Am still struggling with protractor and maths. Mobile phone towers spinning overhead!

Can anyone remember the announcement (give me a link if you can) re the location of Allison's phone being within 150metres of Brookfield house. Did that come from Insp Ainsworth interview or was it a MSM story?

Can you remember Marly?

 

[marlywings]

Am still struggling with protractor and maths. Mobile phone towers spinning overhead!

Can anyone remember the announcement (give me a link if you can) re the location of Allison's phone being within 150metres of Brookfield house. Did that come from Insp Ainsworth interview or was it a MSM story?

Can you remember Marly?

May 01, 2012

• Police are hopeful of finding her mobile phone after narrowing the location of the key missing item to an area spanning 150m

Further down in the same report...


As the Kholo Creek crews worked, fresh search teams were sent to scour the gardens of the Baden-Clays' two nearest neighbours looking for Allison's mobile phone.

It is understood search crews were told the iPhone would be found in an area believed to be near the two neighbours and the Baden-Clay property itself.

Up to 20 police officers searched the neighbouring properties and dozens of SES volunteers returned around 4pm to look again.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...d-at-kholo-creek/story-e6freoof-1226343136675

 

[marlywings]

An earlier report about Allison's phone...

April 26, 2012

Police said they had yesterday managed to triangulate Mrs Baden-Clay's iPhone, before the battery ran flat, to a location spanning three suburbs in Brisbane's west.

They called on residents of those suburbs - Brookfield (including Upper Brookfield), Kenmore and Pullenvale - to search their properties for any sign of the mum or her mobile phone

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...urbs-of-brisbane/story-e6freoof-1226338302828

 

[Amee]

I hadn't heard the FaceTime call was disproved. How was that; was that in MSM?

I havent seen it in MSM either about the FaceTime call disproved.
Here is an MSM about the call.

"The FaceTime call provides proof that conscious activity occurred on that phone at 12.30am. This contact has never been acknowledged by either Gerard Baden-Clay or Nigel Baden-Clay,'' the affidavit said.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-documents-claim/story-e6freon6-1226413189448

 

[Freya1977]

Hi all,

I'm a Brisbane resident who has not had a chance to follow the case as much as I'd have liked to. Have had a lot going on this year and have only just had a chance to spend a few days really reading back over all the MSM and also the forums here.

I've always been very interested in these sort of mysteries and investigations, and have only just discovered WS, through my sister being very interested in the ABC case and reading on here. I think the first case I really became "obsessed" with following online was a missing girl named Dru Sjodin, from North Dakota, who was sadly found deceased in 2003. Off topic I know, but reading through all the forums just reminded me of when that happened and I followed it every day.

Anyway, what a terribly sad case this is. It's amazing that so many of the ideas tossed around in here have come to pass, and some of them, reading back over, are eerie!

My own ideas/thoughts that have formed while reading through everything are..

- I don't get the idea there was any pre-meditation in this. It's too disorganized. I think there's been a heated argument, probably surrounding the fact that ABC would be attending a conference the next day and would be coming face-to-face with one of the mistresses. Things got out of hand and he's lost it, maybe hit her and cause the subdural haematoma and possibly killed her or thought he had killed her.

- He's freaked out and called his dad using Facetime, and NBC and OW have come to help him try to cover up his mistake or watch the kids while he did so.

- What about EBC? She may not have known....at first, NBC may have kept her out of it, or she has maybe said she wants no part in it?

- The sighting of NBC at the bus stop...perhaps he was waiting to be picked up by GBC to help him with the task? Didn't want to be seen going to GBC residence at some weird hour?

- I'm thinking that ABC has been rolled down the bank from the side of the bridge. Don't think that she could have been where she was if she'd been dumped up-stream.....water does not get high enough without some flooding. Also it doesn't sound like she was dropped from the side. Maybe she was supposed to roll down to the water but he didn't make it?

- I seem to recall some report in MSM at the time they were calling for witnesses, that someone had reported seeing TWO cars parked on a verge somewhere near a bridge/creek....did I dream this up? Has there ever been someone say they saw 2 cars parked somewhere that night, in the early hours of the morning?

- Regarding the phone.....what was the story with the SIM card? Was that not her SIM that they found? I have the feeling they thought it was but it turned out not to be.

- Also with the phone, would it still have been able to send that signal out if it was underground? Like, buried in a garden or something?

- Thoughts about the recent claims that she may have committed suicide. Firstly, I really don't think someone gets their hair all done in prep for suicide on a muddy creek bank.

- Secondly, it's EXTREMELY hard to OD on Zoloft and actually die. It can make you very ill obviously, but it's very rare for someone who tries to commit suicide with sertraline to be successful. It's just not that easy.

- Why would she go THERE to do it? She wouldn't.

- I'm speculating that his last ditch effort to get out of this will be to say that he found her after a suicide and was trying to a) protect the kids, b) protect her name, c) he may admit he needed the money and thought the life insurance would be forfeited if it was a suicide.

- The little car "accident" was him trying to buy some time and avoid attending the police station. Not very well thought out but I guess he was desperate!

I'm sure there are more random thoughts that will come to me. Sorry if it's all been said etc, but these things just stuck in my mind and I thought I'd air them! MOO

 

[Flinders]

Quick post here. In Msm it has been saidis that how Allison found about confirmation of her husbands dealings was tuckshop talking. She didnt volunter so who told her.The tuck shop adds much needed money to regional schools. The best and most fundraising tuck shop I have been involved with is where we signed an agreement not to gossip. I have looked at some state school newsletters where parents are asked for money. In Regional areas some parents can't but I can do so quietly donate. Yep, not the burger man. My child is in an area with a 90 percent attendance of indigenous and special needs children.
Go tuckshop.
My thoughts and prayers are with the girls, their grandparents and their prayers and christmas traditions.

 

[marlywings]

I havent seen it in MSM either about the FaceTime call disproved.
Here is an MSM about the call.

"The FaceTime call provides proof that conscious activity occurred on that phone at 12.30am. This contact has never been acknowledged by either Gerard Baden-Clay or Nigel Baden-Clay,'' the affidavit said.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-documents-claim/story-e6freon6-1226413189448

I knew I'd read it somewhere but couldn't find it in any online reports. I'd read it in last Saturday's print edition. Champagne4lulu also posted about it few days back....

Mods if this isn't allowed please delete. If anyone can find a link online please share. This is from p2 of today's courier mail. Article by Kate kyriacou and Brooke baskin.

"Justice Peter applegarth heard several parts of the Crown's case had been disproven since the first bail application - including the existence of a call using the FaceTime app apparently made by Baden-clay to his father during the early hours of April 20.

The court was told the prosecution would no longer rely on a google search for 'taking the fith' that Baden clay did days before his wife's death.

Justice applegarth told the court Baden-clay had since explained he googled the term to get its meaning after watching a television show where the saying was used......justice applegarth said police checks of the television show and the time it aired checked out."

I haven't seen this anywhere else surprisingly - it was I thought - a pretty crucial piece of evidence. I wonder why they were disproven?

Thoughts on this?

Adding in a post of Alioop's with her comments about the "disproven" facetime call.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8650239&postcount=453"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #40[/ame]

 

[Nads]

A couple of people have said Allison may have been rolled down the bank of the river ?from the top? But the vegetation was very very thick before it was cleared by the police, sort of like it is on the opposite bank. So I don't think a rolling body would have gone very far.

 

[Freya1977]

A couple of people have said Allison may have been rolled down the bank of the river ?from the top? But the vegetation was very very thick before it was cleared by the police, sort of like it is on the opposite bank. So I don't think a rolling body would have gone very far.

Hmmmm OK. Thanks for that! I didn't realise the police had to clear it.

 

[Thinking]

Quick post here. In Msm it has been saidis that how Allison found about confirmation of her husbands dealings was tuckshop talking. She didnt volunter so who told her.The tuck shop adds much needed money to regional schools. The best and most fundraising tuck shop I have been involved with is where we signed an agreement not to gossip. I have looked at some state school newsletters where parents are asked for money. In Regional areas some parents can't but I can do so quietly donate. Yep, not the burger man. My child is in an area with a 90 percent attendance of indigenous and special needs children.
Go tuckshop.
My thoughts and prayers are with the girls, their grandparents and their prayers and christmas traditions.

Thanks Flinders. Do you mean that it is a bad thing that Allison found out through tuckshop gossip? To be honest I'd prefer my mum-friends at school to tell me if my husband was having an affair, rather than talking about it behind my back and me never knowing. So if the tuckshop mums told her, I say good on them. Women should never be left in the dark in these situations, it is too humiliating. I hope I've understood you correctly, sorry if I haven't.

 

[Freya1977]

I agree, I'd rather be told....and sooner rather than later!

It's happened to me and it was not nice, at all

I know how she must have felt. Poor thing.

 

[DrWatson]

Doc, is it true that an overdose of Zoloft is extremely rare only happening to 1 percent of the population that even try to overdose.

@Flinders: I posted several pages back, maybe on the previous thread, just as the bail hearing was making fresh news, that Zoloft is very difficult to kill yourself with. Not impossible, but very unlikely, unless mixed with other drugs and/or alcohol in big doses. And she certainly wouldn't be walking 14Km after that anyway...

The other thing that concerned me (still does) is that the autopsy required getting blood from the liver to do the tox screen including Zoloft levels (both sertraline and norsertraline, the active metabolite). The "first pass principle", where blood from the stomach and bowel goes through the liver first, means that the concentration of things like drugs would be HIGHER in the liver than in the general circulation. One of the functions of the liver is to concentrate and extract materials from the blood that reaches it from the bowel. So extrapolating levels in blood from the liver, to levels in the general circulation, in terms of toxic levels etc, would be very tricky if not impossible.

If I were the prosecution and challenging the idea of suicide by Zoloft, that's what I would be suggesting!

 

[alioop]

Thanks for that explanation Doc and now I can return your compliment and say excellent thinking there Doc. This is really big info. The defence's main argument for the suicide theory as submitted at the bail hearing was high levels of Zoloft or its product of metabolism in Allison's body. Without that they have no suicide theory as the diary notes have nothing about suicidal intentions in them. Just the notes of someone who is upset which is what Judge Applegarth said is how he interpreted them.

So if the prosecution have medical evidence to support Doc's argument that the liver concentrated the zoloft, the suicide theory is out the door. Bet that will be at the top of the list for the medical witness who performed the toxicology tests to confirm at the commital. In introducing this suicide theory, Peter Davis said at the bail hearing that the defence didn't have to prove anything but that the prosecution have to investigate any reasonable hypothesis or words along those lines as to the cause of Allison's death. That is true so now they just need to investigate ( if they haven't already and I am sure they have) why the high levels of zoloft were in the liver and from Doc's info that sounds like they will be able to provide an explanation for that that is not consistent with suicide.

 

[DrWatson]

Just been doing some research on my "theory", and found this. Here is the abstract from the paper from the Journal of Analytical Toxicology (and the bit bolded by me):

http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/5/272.abstract

==== START QUOTE ====
Sertraline is a potent inhibitor of serotonin reuptake in the central nervous system and is used clinically to treat depression and obsessive-compulsive behavior. Over the course of one year, there were seven cases investigated by the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner, State of Maryland, in which sertraline was identified in postmortem specimens. Heart blood concentrations in the seven cases ranged from 0.23 to 0.46 mg/L; desmethylsertraline concentrations ranged from 0.08 to 0.99 mg/L. One similarity with tricyclic antidepressants is the high liver concentrations of drug and metabolite relative to the blood. One unusual finding is the small concentrations of drug and metabolite in the urine relative to other specimens. In none of these cases was the cause of death related to sertraline intoxication.
==== END QUOTE ====

 

[alioop]

So am I reading it right Doc when I think that liver is as much as doubling the concentrations in the heart blood? 0.46mg in the heart blood and 0.99 in the liver.

 

[DrWatson]

And for those with a scientific bent, who are OK with deciphering the lingo, here's another one (relevant bits again bolded by me):

==== START QUOTE ====
Forensic Sci Int. 2012 Nov 30;223(1-3):349-52. doi: 10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.10.020. Epub 2012 Nov 3.
Sertraline concentrations and postmortem redistribution.
McIntyre IM, Mallett P.
Source

Forensic Toxicology Division, County of San Diego Medical Examiner's Office, 5570 Overland Ave., Suite 101, San Diego, CA 92123, USA. Electronic address: [email protected].
Abstract

Sertraline is a commonly prescribed selective inhibitor of serotonin uptake used for the treatment of mental depression and anxiety. Central blood and liver concentrations of sertraline (norsertraline) are compared to levels in peripheral blood in nine medical examiner cases. Specimens were initially screened for alcohol and simple volatiles by GC-FID headspace analysis, ELISA for drugs of abuse, and alkaline drugs by GC/MS. Sertraline, when detected by the alkaline drug screen, was subsequently confirmed and quantified by a specific GC-NPD procedure. Data suggest that when ingested with other medications, sertraline may be a contributing factor in death. Sertraline (norsertraline) concentrations ranged from 0.13 (0.11) to 2.1 (6.0)mg/L in peripheral blood, from 0.18 (0.12) to 2.0 (6.7)mg/L in central blood, and 21 to 160mg/kg in liver. Sertraline central blood to peripheral blood ratios averaged 1.22±0.85 (mean±standard deviation). The liver to peripheral blood ratios, on the other hand, were markedly higher and averaged 97±40 (mean±standard deviation). Given that a liver to peripheral blood ratio exceeding 20 is indicative of propensity for significant postmortem redistribution, these data confirm that sertraline is prone to marked postmortem redistribution.

==== END QUOTE ====

 

[DrWatson]

So am I reading it right Doc when I think that liver is as much as doubling the concentrations in the heart blood? 0.46mg in the heart blood and 0.99 in the liver.

Those are the concentrations of two different substances - one is sertraline, the other is desmethylsertraline, a metabolite.

See the next post, Ali - up over 20 times compared to peripheral (i.e. main circulation) blood levels.

Also mentions that sertraline can CONTRIBUTE to death - when combined with other drugs. Which is what I said way back.