Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #40

[alioop]

You are doing good Journey. It takes a while to get the hang of things. You can always ask marlywings by a private message for any help with how to do something. This is the first forum I have been on and it took me a little while to get in the groove ( and now I can't shut up!)

Edit. I like your avatar. Sums up why we are here.

 

[DrWatson]

Doc, I just had a thought and thinking outside the square, could the bruising to Allison's chest wall be caused by someone giving her CPR? We know that she didn't have any fractured ribs that can happen with CPR though I don't know how common that is.

Yes indeed, Alioop - and a very good suggestion that is too. I wonder if this whole thing was accidental - never intended to go as far as it did? Then panic, CPR, but failed?

It's a possibility, but most likely not a probability, I would think. Although one would think that calling an ambulance would seem a somewhat more logical urgent panic response as opposed to contriving a plan to dispose of the body 14Km away...

Also, people undergoing CPR don't usually scratch the resuscitator on the face...

 

[they'll get you]

Yes indeed, Alioop - and a very good suggestion that is too. I wonder if this whole thing was accidental - never intended to go as far as it did? Then panic, CPR, but failed?

It's a possibility, but most likely not a probability, I would think. Although one would think that calling an ambulance would seem a somewhat more logical urgent panic response as opposed to contriving a plan to dispose of the body 14Km away...

Also, people undergoing CPR don't usually scratch the resuscitator on the face...

LOVE YOUR LOGIC DOC.:rocker:

 

[Onlyone]

Justic Applegarth (pictured) denied the application but one other member of the judiciary told TTT that if put in the same position they would have left Baden-Clay twisting in the wind before making a decision upon resumption of the 2013 court year.

He he he

"Twisting in the wind" if only....

 

[alicat]

My query is:- What is the significance in finding the phone if all the information therein can be obtained from the service provider? I am not so up on technology and don't have a smart phone.

Fingerprints.

 

[alicat]

The other reason, I guess, would be to save battery life - but mine lasts a good couple of days with everything on. I also put it on the charger almost every night by routine, beside the bed.

That's impressive! Mine doesn't even last a day and the battery dies on mine. I'm obviously using it to much!

 

[alioop]

Yes indeed, Alioop - and a very good suggestion that is too. I wonder if this whole thing was accidental - never intended to go as far as it did? Then panic, CPR, but failed?

It's a possibility, but most likely not a probability, I would think. Although one would think that calling an ambulance would seem a somewhat more logical urgent panic response as opposed to contriving a plan to dispose of the body 14Km away...

Also, people undergoing CPR don't usually scratch the resuscitator on the face...

Thanks Doc. The bruising on Allison's chest wall was on the left side and that is the side the heart is on for someone who knows how to do CPR. Also the scratches could have occurred during an argument which may have ended in Allison hitting her head, hence the subdural haematoma. CPR could have happened after that by GBC or by someone else he may have called to come and help. Just thinking out the possibilities. If this was something along the lines of what did happen, then yes I agree with you that most people would call an ambulance but not calling one doesn't mean that it didn't happen this way.

Edit. Maybe the ambulance wasn't called as she was thought to be deceased and then the thoughts about life insurances kicked in if they weren't there before the fight. Or the fear of being held responsible for her death as a result of a fight. His face would have been bleeding from those scratches.

 

[DrWatson]

Thanks Doc. The bruising on Allison's chest wall was on the left side and that is the side the heart is on for someone who knows how to do CPR. Also the scratches could have occurred during an argument which may have ended in Allison hitting her head, hence the subdural haematoma. CPR could have happened after that by GBC or by someone else he may have called to come and help. Just thinking out the possibilities. If this was something along the lines of what did happen, then yes I agree with you that most people would call an ambulance but not calling one doesn't mean that it didn't happen this way.

Edit. Maybe the ambulance wasn't called as she was thought to be deceased and then the thoughts about life insurances kicked in if they weren't there before the fight. Or the fear of being held responsible for her death as a result of a fight. His face would have been bleeding from those scratches.

Definitely feasible, although CPR is done via the sternum, in the centre of the front chest wall. And ribs may be fractured with vigorous resuscitation, and they tend to crack further out towards the sides.

And may be one line that the defence may follow... I'm not sure they'd proceed with the suicide line of defence, given what even we amateurs have found so far about Zoloft, post-mortem redistribution, and liver concentrations, etc.

Are you thinking a possible negligent manslaughter defence? Along with the interfering with the corpse bit? Or however the legalese goes?

Just a whisker over two months before the committal hearing - but who is counting? :waitasec:

 

[alioop]

Thanks Doc, I take your points. I am not thinking about legal strategies, just brainstorming about what may have actually happened and trying to fit the facts as we know them, such as her injuries, to possible scenarios. But if there is an explanation other than premeditated murder for Allison's death that GBC can provide at a trial then maybe there will be some admissions. But committal first.

 

[Groundedgirl]

Thanks Doc. The bruising on Allison's chest wall was on the left side and that is the side the heart is on for someone who knows how to do CPR. Also the scratches could have occurred during an argument which may have ended in Allison hitting her head, hence the subdural haematoma. CPR could have happened after that by GBC or by someone else he may have called to come and help. Just thinking out the possibilities. If this was something along the lines of what did happen, then yes I agree with you that most people would call an ambulance but not calling one doesn't mean that it didn't happen this way.

Edit. Maybe the ambulance wasn't called as she was thought to be deceased and then the thoughts about life insurances kicked in if they weren't there before the fight. Or the fear of being held responsible for her death as a result of a fight. His face would have been bleeding from those scratches.

I also think he would simply fear what others would have thought as well. I get the distinct feeling how others saw him was paramount at all times. An incident like this would be counterproductive to business as usual. Even if it was an accident.

 

[alioop]

Good point Grounded. It would have put an end to his political aspirations also.

 

[Groundedgirl]

Good point Grounded. It would have put an end to his political aspirations also.

Yes! Absolutely. Money would have been second to disgracing the hyphen.

 

[Maigret]

The seeds of suicide are spreading - exactly what the defence want to do (Facebook - talk about slitting wrists )

 

[KG1]

Thanks Doc. The bruising on Allison's chest wall was on the left side and that is the side the heart is on for someone who knows how to do CPR. Also the scratches could have occurred during an argument which may have ended in Allison hitting her head, hence the subdural haematoma. CPR could have happened after that by GBC or by someone else he may have called to come and help. Just thinking out the possibilities. If this was something along the lines of what did happen, then yes I agree with you that most people would call an ambulance but not calling one doesn't mean that it didn't happen this way.

Edit. Maybe the ambulance wasn't called as she was thought to be deceased and then the thoughts about life insurances kicked in if they weren't there before the fight. Or the fear of being held responsible for her death as a result of a fight. His face would have been bleeding from those scratches.

It seems more likely to me that a serious assault occurred, involving a severe punch to the upper body, or a knee into the left chest, whilst hands around throat. Remember that he was scratched on the face, below underarms and on chest himself, indicating that his arms were somewhat extended from his body, and the scratches on his face are in a downward motion - him leaning over a figure lying down. Also the chipped tooth could have been caused by connection with a ring on a finger during an assault. MOO only.

 

[KG1]

Definitely feasible, although CPR is done via the sternum, in the centre of the front chest wall. And ribs may be fractured with vigorous resuscitation, and they tend to crack further out towards the sides.

And may be one line that the defence may follow... I'm not sure they'd proceed with the suicide line of defence, given what even we amateurs have found so far about Zoloft, post-mortem redistribution, and liver concentrations, etc.

Are you thinking a possible negligent manslaughter defence? Along with the interfering with the corpse bit? Or however the legalese goes?

Just a whisker over two months before the committal hearing - but who is counting? :waitasec:

Doc, if the defence wanted to go down the manslaughter path, then there is a heavy task to present evidence to that scenario. No statements by the accused alluding to any admissions of harm to the victim, no assistance with search for the victim, total demeanour of the accused from the outset, calls to insurers, car crash, scratches, doctor visits, lies, affairs, secret emails and public phone calls to lover during search, general behaviour during search - a jury or a judge alone is entitled to draw inferences from all these matters at trial (assuming committed to trial), and especially if accused gives evidence. MOO only.

 

[alioop]

It seems more likely to me that a serious assault occurred, involving a severe punch to the upper body, or a knee into the left chest, whilst hands around throat. Remember that he was scratched on the face, below underarms and on chest himself, indicating that his arms were somewhat extended from his body, and the scratches on his face are in a downward motion - him leaning over a figure lying down. Also the chipped tooth could have been caused by connection with a ring on a finger during an assault. MOO only.

I agree KG1. That scenario also fits with the injuries to both Alison and GBC. I was just trying to see if there were any other scenarios that may fit too.

Nothing about the suicide theory fits any likely scenario to me.

 

[alioop]

Doc, if the defence wanted to go down the manslaughter path, then there is a heavy task to present evidence to that scenario. No statements by the accused alluding to any admissions of harm to the victim, no assistance with search for the victim, total demeanour of the accused from the outset, calls to insurers, car crash, scratches, doctor visits, lies, affairs, secret emails and public phone calls to lover during search, general behaviour during search - a jury or a judge alone is entitled to draw inferences from all these matters at trial (assuming committed to trial), and especially if accused gives evidence. MOO only.

I agree, a jury will not be impressed with any attempt to explain at trial that it was a fight that accidentally ended in death. That opportunity has long gone to expect any sympathy.

 

[DrWatson]

Doc, if the defence wanted to go down the manslaughter path, then there is a heavy task to present evidence to that scenario. No statements by the accused alluding to any admissions of harm to the victim, no assistance with search for the victim, total demeanour of the accused from the outset, calls to insurers, car crash, scratches, doctor visits, lies, affairs, secret emails and public phone calls to lover during search, general behaviour during search - a jury or a judge alone is entitled to draw inferences from all these matters at trial (assuming committed to trial), and especially if accused gives evidence. MOO only.

Oh don't get me wrong - I think exactly the same way that you do about all of the above. But like Alioop, we have to consider ANY alternatives that may be put forward, no matter how ridiculous or outlandish they may seem to us now.

I would think that the prosecution would be trying to think like the defence, to see what lines they could possibly come up with, and then work out how to counter them. And vice versa....

 

[alioop]

The seeds of suicide are spreading - exactly what the defence want to do (Facebook - talk about slitting wrists )

That is not going to help the defence long term because then it makes it even more difficult for the defence to later claim accidental death as a result of a fight which is far more likely than suicide. The more the stories change, the less credible any of them are.

 

[Amee]

OT

Prison heist as South Australian inmates sue over frivolous matters

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...rivolous-matters/story-e6frea83-1226544294083