Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #41

[jojo85]

Is that known, or just rumour? I can't remember that ever being confirmed. In fact, the whole scenario at the Kenmore Roundabout is shrouded in mystery - I have absolutely no idea WHY the police have been concentrating on that.

And I have no idea WHY NBC would be sitting at a bus stop in the first place, especially one that is so public and open, not to mention the camera looking straight down on it.

I suspect that is rumour only, but we should know more in a few weeks.

It was squizzey, I thought, who first brought it up.

05-31-2012, 12:07 AM
squizzey1
Registered User Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 408

new on here and have heard a lot from friends in the area. some interesting points 1. a witness was told ABC was strangled. 2. same witness told there was batwater in lungs.3 same witness saw something strange at roundabout, it was BC senior sitting in bus shelter late that night. 4. has been said all hard drives were blank ,interesting. BUT BC senior computer supposidly googled the scout camp late that night. not known facts just info told to me by friends

and then

06-05-2012, 12:57 AM
squizzey1
Registered User Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 408

That was me some time ago. A local who knows the family saw NBC at the bus shelter late that night{not sure of exact time around 11 or 11.30 I believe}. Since she knew him and it seemed extremely odd she stopped and asked if he was ok {Initially thought he may be drunk} He said he was ok so she let him be. very reliable info. its just i wasnt told the exact time.

AND

06-05-2012, 01:16 AM
squizzey1
Registered User Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 408

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nads
So, I'm assuming they told the police? I just thought it was all a rumour, of an older man. Didn't know it was someone who knew him, and then they stopped!

yes knew him and stopped. it was a bit close to home to ask if she told the police. suffice to say QPS took a big interest in the roundabout after she was interviewed


Squizzey has been verified as in insider but I guess it's up to the individual as to how much weight you put on his words.

Anyway, now I'm wondering if there were two car trips - the white prado to the kenmore roundabout late at night and then the silver captiva early hours of the morning out to Anstead?

 

[Zim]

It was squizzey, I thought, who first brought it up.

05-31-2012, 12:07 AM
squizzey1
Registered User Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 408

new on here and have heard a lot from friends in the area. some interesting points 1. a witness was told ABC was strangled. 2. same witness told there was batwater in lungs.3 same witness saw something strange at roundabout, it was BC senior sitting in bus shelter late that night. 4. has been said all hard drives were blank ,interesting. BUT BC senior computer supposidly googled the scout camp late that night. not known facts just info told to me by friends

and then

06-05-2012, 12:57 AM
squizzey1
Registered User Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 408

That was me some time ago. A local who knows the family saw NBC at the bus shelter late that night{not sure of exact time around 11 or 11.30 I believe}. Since she knew him and it seemed extremely odd she stopped and asked if he was ok {Initially thought he may be drunk} He said he was ok so she let him be. very reliable info. its just i wasnt told the exact time.

AND

06-05-2012, 01:16 AM
squizzey1
Registered User Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 408

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nads
So, I'm assuming they told the police? I just thought it was all a rumour, of an older man. Didn't know it was someone who knew him, and then they stopped!

yes knew him and stopped. it was a bit close to home to ask if she told the police. suffice to say QPS took a big interest in the roundabout after she was interviewed


Squizzey has been verified as in insider but I guess it's up to the individual as to how much weight you put on his words.

Anyway, now I'm wondering if there were two car trips - the white prado to the kenmore roundabout late at night and then the silver captiva early hours of the morning out to Anstead?

Makes a lot of sense, but could be a rumour I suppose.
It would explain the scratches. I am sure it would have been 'quieter' as not to wake the children. Evidence and blood from scratches would well have been flushed.

Who had pictures of the bathroom ?

 

[Zanzibar]

The imperfection that I was talking about, that gets the top knocked off it by the razor, is the bump caused by the tongue being firmly implanted in the cheek...

Just on the timing of the scratches - it would be VERY difficult - if not impossible - to assess that from those awful monochrome fuzzy copies of the photos that were published. The doctor who inspected those photos would have had high definition digital photos, for sure. Then it's down to things like the colour of the lesions, any surrounding erythema (redness), etc. Still hard to assess accurately, but I would think that the lesions could be differentiated in terms of earlier vs later. In terms of hours - I'm not so sure. It would be guesswork based on underlying sound knowledge. I can tell a fresh wound, scratch, etc from one that's a few hours old, when I see one in the emergency department, for example. But it's part science, part art, and part black magic!

Well, I'm glad you said that... both bits ... but ... I thought it might be hard to determine the difference in timing hence why I asked the question. Maybe he had the two different sets of photo's, maybe his was a lot clearer as you said, maybe he uses a bit of that black magic you mentioned.

End result for me: it possibly points to actions taken to cover evidence - no surprises there - although I can't help wondering what QPS thought when he turned up and showed them the rest of the scratches to his torso & neck.

 

[LadyBird1]

If he hadn't attempted to shave at all, then another complete lie! .."He said 'I cut myself shaving this morning as I was in a hurry, trying to get the girls ready'," the documents say.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...baden-clays-face/story-e6freoof-1226537344568

Seriously, Do you believe a single word that comes out of his mouth?

 

[Obsessor]

I have wondered if CBC actually shaved at all on the morning of the 20 April 2012. The photos depicting the scratch/cut marks look, to me, like he hasn't shaved for over 24 hours.
I am aware that different men grow facial hair at different rates. Be interesting to see AGCC photos of his face after shaving, then the same face with 24 hours of growth.

Great point. I hadn't put the stubble in the picture, together with the time the photo was taken, and the fact that he hda apparently shaved some 3-4 hours prior, together. It doesn't look at all like he shaved that morning to me either. To be honest, when I looked at that photo, the severity of the gashes was such a shock, I didn't see past that to notice the presence of stubble.
Good pick.

 

[Curiousasacat]

The bigger, deeper scratches were NOT made by a Gillette Mach III razor. I use one, and even if you deliberately tried to cut yourself with it, by sliding it sideways (which would be silly) it still wouldn't look anything like those scratches. The scratches and nicks that WERE more likely to have come from shaving would be the tiny little nicks we blokes all get when shaving - taking the tops off tiny skin imperfections (those of us with rugged good looks always have those!) Heh!

But those wider and deeper scratches would be consistent with fingernail injuries, but NOT with safety razor injuries.

And re the torso scratches, many of us up here in the warmer climes DO sleep in just shorts, or nothing. He could also have been wearing a shirt but unbuttoned, as another example of how he got the scratches.

As to why he was doctor-shopping, the only reason I can think of is that he was indeed shopping for the answer that he wanted - that he scratched himself shaving. But I'm sure none of those doctors would testify that was the case. I certainly wouldn't, and that's only from seeing the photos, not the actual lesions.

One small inconsistency that does come to mind - the police who attended the scene (the intuitive Constable Ash) noted that there were no blood-stained tissues or other evidence of having cut himself shaving, when he searched the house. BUT - the fact remains that he DID have those scratches, so whether they were caused by a razor or somebody's fingernails, he would still have had to staunch the bleeding regardless. So while the lack of blood-stained tissues may have served to add to Constable Ash's suspicions, GBC could easily have simply stopped the bleeding in the shower, or dabbed the scratches with tissues and then just flushed them down the toilet.

The lack of blood-stained tissues doesn't actually mean anything very much, IMHO, but it DID just add to the level of suspicion, which was a good thing.

Hi Doc,
So if the scratches were from Allison's fingernails there would be evidence wouldn't there? That would certainly be huge evidence. Could the skin still be evident under fingernails after all that time? Which leads back to the rumours about the hand.

My first thought about the scratches were tree branch scratches. Right next to those pesky caterpillars ; )

 

[LadyBird1]

Great point. I hadn't put the stubble in the picture, together with the time the photo was taken, and the fact that he hda apparently shaved some 3-4 hours prior, together. It doesn't look at all like he shaved that morning to me either. To be honest, when I looked at that photo, the severity of the gashes was such a shock, I didn't see past that to notice the presence of stubble.
Good pick.

Thanks Obsessor. Like you. I failed to look past the gash marks, (shock factor) until I deliberately went looking. Focus was on gashes not stubble.
Photographs were taken about 10am on April 20.
Considering he allegedly woke after 6am, and appeared to have quite a busy time immediately thereafter, I started thinking, when did he find time to shave.
After my husband shaves, his face is smooth as a baby's, well for quite a few hours anyway. No stubble.

 

[DrWatson]

Hi Doc,
So if the scratches were from Allison's fingernails there would be evidence wouldn't there? That would certainly be huge evidence. Could the skin still be evident under fingernails after all that time? Which leads back to the rumours about the hand.

My first thought about the scratches were tree branch scratches. Right next to those pesky caterpillars ; )

There would have been early on, but I seem to recall from somewhere that it was stated that due to the time between death and the body being found, there was no identifiable tissue under Allison's nails. And I really don't think there was ever anything in those rumours of missing hands. And I heard worse rumours too - none of which were true.

 

[alioop]

Another question Alioop, if that's all right. Please and thank-you.
What is the difference between murder and manslaughter?
(I thought manslaughter was the lesser charge.)
.

Ladybird, the relevant sections in QLD's Criminal Code are

Sec 300 unlawful homicide- Any person who unlawfully kills another is guilty of a crime which is called murder or manslaughter according to the circumstances of the case.

Unlawful means not authorised, justified or excused by law. It is not an element of manslaughter that the accused intended to kill the deceased or to do them any particular harm as is essentially the case with murder ( with some exceptions)

The penalty for manslaughter is a maximum of life imprisonment, but unlike murder it is not a mandatory sentence so the judge has discretion to order a sentence less than life. Rarely would a person convicted of manslaughter be sentenced to life. So an accused would prefer to be found guilty of manslaughter than murder as they will get a less term of jail to serve.

The charges against GBC are murder because the police believe the evidence they have obtained shows that he intended to either kill Allison or cause her grievous bodily harm which resulted in her death. He has not provided any information to suggest an accident occurred say following an argument which would support reduced charges of manslaughter. To the contrary his defence is suggesting suicide which is taking him further away from reduced charges of manslaughter.

I think their dire financial situation, the life insurances payout on Allison's death to him as beneficiary and his speed and timing to claim on her policies is the main evidence the police have to support their contention that he intended to kill her, thus the charge of murder.

Life imprisonment in QLD means 15 years non parole period for GBC if convicted for murder. Since Allison's death the law has changed to increase it to 20 years but it is not retrospective so the increase won't affect GBC.

 

[alioop]

Good point re the open shirt. Don't know what the temp up there was that night, but I'm guessing warm enough to not require much clothing. :blushing:

According to bureau of meteorology the temp in Brisbane for thurs 19 April 2012 was approx min 18 max 28. At 9 am Friday morning it was 24 degrees Celsius. Warm enough not to have many clothes on inside a house.

 

[Fuskier]

Ladybird, the relevant sections in QLD's Criminal Code are
<respectfully snipped>
The charges against GBC are murder because the police believe evidence they have obtained shows that he intended to either kill Allison or cause her grievous bodily harm which resulted in her death. He has not provided any information to suggest an accident occurred ... To the contrary his defence is suggesting suicide which is taking him further away from reduced charges of manslaughter

.

Thanks for your post Alioop. It makes certain facts clearer IMO.

 

[Couldbe]

Ladybird, the relevant sections in QLD's Criminal Code are

Sec 300 unlawful homicide- Any person who unlawfully kills another is guilty of a crime which is called murder or manslaughter according to the circumstances of the case.

Unlawful means not authorised, justified or excused by law. It is not an element of manslaughter that the accused intended to kill the deceased or to do them any particular harm as is essentially the case with murder ( with some exceptions)

The penalty for manslaughter is a maximum of life imprisonment, but unlike murder it is not a mandatory sentence so the judge has discretion to order a sentence less than life. Rarely would a person convicted of manslaughter be sentenced to life. So an accused would prefer to be found guilty of manslaughter than murder as they will get a less term of jail to serve.

The charges against GBC are murder because the police believe the evidence they have obtained shows that he intended to either kill Allison or cause her grievous bodily harm which resulted in her death. He has not provided any information to suggest an accident occurred say following an argument which would support reduced charges of manslaughter. To the contrary his defence is suggesting suicide which is taking him further away from reduced charges of manslaughter.

I think their dire financial situation, the life insurances payout on Allison's death to him as beneficiary and his speed and timing to claim on her policies is the main evidence the police have to support their contention that he intended to kill her, thus the charge of murder.

Life imprisonment in QLD means 15 years non parole period for GBC if convicted for murder. Since Allison's death the law has changed to increase it to 20 years but it is not retrospective so the increase won't affect GBC.

Has anyone considered that the Defence may try using TM as a 'scapegoat' in that he was under pressure from her......using it to try and lessen his 'intent to kill'?

 

[Liadan]

Its so true that we can't believe a blissful word that comes out GBC's mouth. So just thinking about this morning timeline. Does someone remember if there was proof positive that the kids were at Brookfield rd all night? Sorry to dredge that repeat up!

6am
OW claims that GBC had told the girls that Allison had fallen down a hole and would not be back (This doesn't fit for me as I am leaning towards thinking that the kids spent at least most of the night at Durness St and this is where she told the girls in the morning as they were awake at 6am and probably playing etc as young kids do.)
6:20am
GBC text to Allison ----Hope you slept well none of the girls up
(OW on her way to Brookfield from Durness St to drop girls at their home on Brookfield Rd to help them get ready for school
6:41am
GBC next text to Allison ----2 girls are up getting worried
(OW and girls at Brookfield she helps them get ready for school with GBC)
7:00am
Allison was scheduled to leave for Conference
8:00am
Police arrive at GBC residence

 

[alioop]

Has anyone considered that the Defence may try using TM as a 'scapegoat' in that he was under pressure from her......using it to try and lessen his 'intent to kill'?

Couldbe, I don't think this would assist GBC, if anything it would provide more motive for murder. You can't lessen an intent to kill, you either have an intent to kill or not. It wouldn't be an excusable intent to kill such as defence of self or another.

Its so true that we can't believe a blissful word that comes out GBC's mouth. So just thinking about this morning timeline. Does someone remember if there was proof positive that the kids were at Brookfield rd all ]

Liadan, from the first bail application material, the police believe that that girls were home that night. I think they would have investigated that issue and not found anything to substantiate they were elsewhere. The Kenmore house would have been pretty full with OW family. I think they could have been there late afternoon/early evening and either GBC picked them up on his way home from work or OW or a BC dropped them home. I think they were home when Allison got home. As far as I can recall only Allison was to attend the conference the next morning so GBC would have been available to take the girls to school. He could have still made it to work by 9.30 am, it was his business and he could have not made any early appointments for that day knowing he was to do the school drop off. Allison would have done what she could to make the morning run smoothly like make the lunches, that is if she had been there to do that and not lying dead under a bridge.

 

[Couldbe]

Couldbe, I don't think this would assist GBC, if anything it would provide more motive for murder. You can't lessen an intent to kill, you either have an intent to kill or not. It wouldn't be an excusable intent to kill such as defence of self or another.



Liadan, from the first bail application material, the police believe that that girls were home that night. I think they would have investigated that issue and not found anything to substantiate they were elsewhere. The Kenmore house would have been pretty full with OW family. I think they could have been there late afternoon/early evening and either GBC picked them up on his way home from work or OW or a BC dropped them home. I think they were home when Allison got home. As far as I can recall only Allison was to attend the conference the next morning so GBC would have been available to take the girls to school. He could have still made it to work by 9.30 am, it was his business and he could have not made any early appointments for that day knowing he was to do the school drop off. Allison would have done what she could to make the morning run smoothly like make the lunches, that is if she had been there to do that and not lying dead under a bridge.

Really appreciate you clearing that for me Alioop.
I think that it would be despicable for his Defence to try to apportion the blame on to TM .... especially if they continue to cite suicide by Allison.

 

[LadyBird1]

Its so true that we can't believe a blissful word that comes out GBC's mouth. So just thinking about this morning timeline. Does someone remember if there was proof positive that the kids were at Brookfield rd all night? Sorry to dredge that repeat up!

6am
OW claims that GBC had told the girls that Allison had fallen down a hole and would not be back (This doesn't fit for me as I am leaning towards thinking that the kids spent at least most of the night at Durness St and this is where she told the girls in the morning as they were awake at 6am and probably playing etc as young kids do.)
6:20am
GBC text to Allison ----Hope you slept well none of the girls up
(OW on her way to Brookfield from Durness St to drop girls at their home on Brookfield Rd to help them get ready for school
6:41am
GBC next text to Allison ----2 girls are up getting worried
(OW and girls at Brookfield she helps them get ready for school with GBC)
7:00am
Allison was scheduled to leave for Conference
8:00am
Police arrive at GBC residence

Liaden, That the children were in the house was revealed at the first bail application 22 June 2012.
Then, again at second bail application 14 December 2012
Lawyers for Gerard Baden-Clay fail in bail application before ...
www.news.com.au/...baden-clay.../story-fndo4ckr-1226536987434
Excerpt from above link:
4.53pm: Mr Davis said it was possible Mrs Baden-Clay left the house to commit suicide because "there were children in the house".

 

[Liadan]

Liaden, That the children were in the house was revealed at the first bail application 22 June 2012.
Then, again at second bail application 14 December 2012
Lawyers for Gerard Baden-Clay fail in bail application before ...
www.news.com.au/...baden-clay.../story-fndo4ckr-1226536987434
Excerpt from above link:
4.53pm: Mr Davis said it was possible Mrs Baden-Clay left the house to commit suicide because "there were children in the house".

You know I did think - the kids were home all night so how could they have done what they did. It doesn't sit right with me --still - without sounding hideous - its almost like wait till the kids are out of action and then get hinky and dispose of the body.

Why do that with the kids there when Olivia is there to transport the kids away and to let them spend time with their cousins ( do we know that OW's kids were there too) and sure if the girls fell asleep at Durness St with their cousins then GBC could carry them to the car and get them tucked up into their beds as usual.

What if the roundabout sitings of the Prado/Captiva were bringing the girls back to the Brookfield house and not about coming back from Kholo? NBC didn't need to go through that roundabout to return his home from dumping Allison at Kholo so maybe he was the one to drive the Captiva that night and waiting for GBC at the roundabout to switch cars.


(Altho with all due respect to Squizzey I have to say - I struggle to believe NBC sitting in the open bus stop looking forlorn and upset - NBC forlorn doesn't cut it for me!)

 

[Thinking]

You know I did think - the kids were home all night so how could they have done what they did. It doesn't sit right with me --still - without sounding hideous - its almost like wait till the kids are out of action and then get hinky and dispose of the body.

Why do that with the kids there when Olivia is there to transport the kids away and to let them spend time with their cousins ( do we know that OW's kids were there too) and sure if the girls fell asleep at Durness St with their cousins then GBC could carry them to the car and get them tucked up into their beds as usual.

What if the roundabout sitings of the Prado/Captiva were bringing the girls back to the Brookfield house and not about coming back from Kholo? NBC didn't need to go through that roundabout to return his home from dumping Allison at Kholo so maybe he was the one to drive the Captiva that night and waiting for GBC at the roundabout to switch cars.


(Altho with all due respect to Squizzey I have to say - I struggle to believe NBC sitting in the open bus stop looking forlorn and upset - NBC forlorn doesn't cut it for me!)

Hi Liadan, whilst the murder may have been premeditated to an extent, I just don't think it was meticulously planned out for that particular night, thus the weird choices he appears to have made and the apparent lack of overall planning with respect to most factors, including the children. MOO

 

[Obsessor]

You know I did think - the kids were home all night so how could they have done what they did. It doesn't sit right with me --still - without sounding hideous - its almost like wait till the kids are out of action and then get hinky and dispose of the body.

Why do that with the kids there when Olivia is there to transport the kids away and to let them spend time with their cousins ( do we know that OW's kids were there too) and sure if the girls fell asleep at Durness St with their cousins then GBC could carry them to the car and get them tucked up into their beds as usual.

What if the roundabout sitings of the Prado/Captiva were bringing the girls back to the Brookfield house and not about coming back from Kholo? NBC didn't need to go through that roundabout to return his home from dumping Allison at Kholo so maybe he was the one to drive the Captiva that night and waiting for GBC at the roundabout to switch cars.


(Altho with all due respect to Squizzey I have to say - I struggle to believe NBC sitting in the open bus stop looking forlorn and upset - NBC forlorn doesn't cut it for me!)

I like your thinking. To me there are so many things that dont add up yet, and the roundabout and presence of the children are two big ones of those.

Your theory addresses both, which, if correct, or even partially so, does help to make sense of a bit more for me.
Interesting.
Please continue... hehe.

 

[Couldbe]

You know I did think - the kids were home all night so how could they have done what they did. It doesn't sit right with me --still - without sounding hideous - its almost like wait till the kids are out of action and then get hinky and dispose of the body.

Why do that with the kids there when Olivia is there to transport the kids away and to let them spend time with their cousins ( do we know that OW's kids were there too) and sure if the girls fell asleep at Durness St with their cousins then GBC could carry them to the car and get them tucked up into their beds as usual.

What if the roundabout sitings of the Prado/Captiva were bringing the girls back to the Brookfield house and not about coming back from Kholo? NBC didn't need to go through that roundabout to return his home from dumping Allison at Kholo so maybe he was the one to drive the Captiva that night and waiting for GBC at the roundabout to switch cars.


(Altho with all due respect to Squizzey I have to say - I struggle to believe NBC sitting in the open bus stop looking forlorn and upset - NBC forlorn doesn't cut it for me!)

JMOO .. My thinking has always been that it is possible .... NBC could have driven to and parked his vehicle in the Kenmore Shopping Centre parking lot and, was picked up in another vehicle and dropped back there (to enable him to then drive back home).
He may have dropped someone else off at GBC's house, in case the children woke up, on his way (having driven via Rafting ground Rd, and then up Brookfield Rd to the roundabout to park his vehicle).
Being dropped off at the roundabout upon returning from Kholo Creek, he would then drive home.
The person who stayed with the children would still be there at 6 am.