Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #41

[Liadan]

wow Obsessor you are certainly on fire - don't apologise -this is sometimes when the best thinking comes to light. So go for it!

I firmly believe that OW and NBC were at the house that fateful morning - probably from 5:30 onwards and furthermore I don't believe for a second that our heavy sleeper was snoring idly in bed with not a care in the world. I think his phone came off the charger to simply set up his alibi and that GBC, OW and NBC were busy as ants getting the house and cars in order and setting their stories straight. I can only hope that these lies come undone for them.

I was thinking further on that and maybe GBC had been up at 5:15 (with little or no sleep), busied himself with his accomplices fixing things up and suddenly thought time had flown (as it would if you were getting everything ready to announce to the world that your wife was missing) and so he conveniently just moved his awakening time to 6:15.

Not a statement that is going to change the face of the case or bring answers but for me the time frame that morning that GBC describes seems way to tight! Going from waking up -to reporting his wife missing wife in an hour seems way over the top. (For a story that needed a strong thread of overlap between all participants.)

 

[alioop]

Thanks Alioop. I find the timing somewhat odd. Initially it wasn't reported that he had been driving around, only that he supposedly sent those text messages to Allison's phone. Now we find out that OW and maybe NBC was at the home just after 6am. GBC seems to be making things up as time goes by.

I agree BN. Whilst it wasn't reported he was driving around though there were rumours that he was, the police have stated in the first bail application that when he called police at 7.15 he told them he was driving around looking for his wife. He said to them his father was looking after his children. It was a short phone call. So NBC was there but we don't know when OW got there. All we know is she was there by the time to take the girls to school.

Has he given a statement to the police or did he remain silent ?

He spoke to the police who first arrived on the scene and then to the second lot of police giving them his version of events which is how the police describe what he told them. Then he pretty much remained silent after that and refused to make any formal statements. He may have answered the odd little question here and there throughout the search and exchanged pleasantries with police but that was about it. I believe he first consulted personally with his southport based lawyers late afternoon on that Friday. He was Mr Tight lips after that meeting, well except for the interview with the pretty blonde reporter.

The more we discover about this case, the more it "offends our collective conscience".

How are we meant to believe that Gerard was so worried by 6am that he called his father AND sisiter to come over while he went into panic mode over the likely disappeance of his wife???
and, then he wakes up.
Then he texts Al to ask if she slept well, signing off love G
Then he drives around LOOKING for her.
Then he texts again, saying he's worried, and within a brief time from this text, he calls 000.
What the???
.

I want to clarify that he did not call 000. He googled the police website and decided to call their 131444 number which states is for non urgent property reporting and QPS general enquiries 24/7. This is the internet searching he says he was doing when a previous search he had done about taking the fifth refreshed on his iPhone screen.

Alioop, I have another question regarding wording, if you dont mind.

The 2nd charge against Gerard, that of "interfering with her corpse at Kholo Creek".
Is it fair to say, that seeing as the police believe the murder took place at their home in Brookfield, that if the interfering charge was just for moving the body, it would say between Brookfield and Kholo Creek, rather than at Kholo Creek? or is this wording the norm for movement of a body from one place to another?

I don't know what is the standard wording in other cases but the police case is that he moved her body to Kholo Creek and nothing else is alleged so I think we have to read it as meaning just the moving of her body from Brookfield and placing her in the creek by whatever means he did that such as throwing her from the bridge or rolling her down etc. We don't know the actual manner of how she got to her resting place, all we know is that the autopsy indicates she was in that place shortly after death. From what Doc Watson has told us, that seems to be within 3 to 4 hours of death.

 

[Couldbe]

wow Obsessor you are certainly on fire - don't apologise -this is sometimes when the best thinking comes to light. So go for it!

I firmly believe that OW and NBC were at the house that fateful morning - probably from 5:30 onwards and furthermore I don't believe for a second that our heavy sleeper was snoring idly in bed with not a care in the world. I think his phone came off the charger to simply set up his alibi and that GBC, OW and NBC were busy as ants getting the house and cars in order and setting their stories straight. I can only hope that these lies come undone for them.

I was thinking further on that and maybe GBC had been up at 5:15 (with little or no sleep), busied himself with his accomplices fixing things up and suddenly thought time had flown (as it would if you were getting everything ready to announce to the world that your wife was missing) and so he conveniently just moved his awakening time to 6:15.

Not a statement that is going to change the face of the case or bring answers but for me the time frame that morning that GBC describes seems way to tight! Going from waking up -to reporting his wife missing wife in an hour seems way over the top. (For a story that needed a strong thread of overlap between all participants.)

.......Can see all this as being quite logical ..... lies aplenty.

Given all this, for me it is still Olivia's husband who is such a worry. We don't seem to know anything of how he is coping. His trust in and support for his wife must be under enormous strain ..... especially as going along with the BC Clan's 'antics' must surely raise questions in his career as a Pastor. If he is not 'involved' and is just biding his time, during this long period of time the strain would surely be very telling!

 

[alioop]

I agree couldbe, the pastor would have trouble dealing with his brother in law having so many affairs let alone that he could have murdered his wife for her life insurance and to escape his marriage.

I think I saw him in video walking into the court building with his wife but I did not see him in the courtroom and he certainly wasn't sitting with her as she had 2 girlfriends with her in the front row of the gallery behind the defence legal team. Maybe he sat in the coffee shop outside the court building and waited for her or maybe he just walked her in and then left.

 

[DrWatson]

Whilst it wasn't reported he was driving around though there were rumours that he was, the police have stated in the first bail application that when he called police at 7.15 he told them he was driving around looking for his wife. He said to them his father was looking after his children. It was a short phone call. So NBC was there but we don't know when OW got there. All we know is she was there by the time to take the girls to school.

BBM

Just to be a little bit pedantic here - while we are all assuming that he was driving around - can I just point out that it is based on what he told the police. Now given the other alleged lies, shouldn't we take the totally objective view, and consider that the only time we actually KNOW stuff is from when the police first arrived?

In other words, he could have told them he was driving round - while he was talking on his mobile from his bedroom! He could have told them his father was at home looking after the kids - when his father may have been still at his own home or elsewhere.

The fact is - we don't actually KNOW what he was doing - we only have what he TOLD the police he was doing - which could have been all lies. Or the truth, of course...

That whole timeline for that morning actually has a lot of assumptions, based on what he is alleged to have told the police. The only facts are the timing of phone calls, texts, and internet connections, and all the police evidence from when Constable Ash and his partner first arrived.

All the rest COULD be just smokescreen and alibi.

 

[Couldbe]

BBM

Just to be a little bit pedantic here - while we are all assuming that he was driving around - can I just point out that it is based on what he told the police. Now given the other alleged lies, shouldn't we take the totally objective view, and consider that the only time we actually KNOW stuff is from when the police first arrived?

In other words, he could have told them he was driving round - while he was talking on his mobile from his bedroom! He could have told them his father was at home looking after the kids - when his father may have been still at his own home or elsewhere.

The fact is - we don't actually KNOW what he was doing - we only have what he TOLD the police he was doing - which could have been all lies. Or the truth, of course...

That whole timeline for that morning actually has a lot of assumptions, based on what he is alleged to have told the police. The only facts are the timing of phone calls, texts, and internet connections, and all the police evidence from when Constable Ash and his partner first arrived.

All the rest COULD be just smokescreen and alibi.

Link refers: http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...baden-clays-face/story-e6freoof-1226537344568
The released bail documents also provide details for the first time of Baden-Clay's emergency call to report his wife missing at 7.15am on April 20.

"I don't want to be alarmist. I tried the 131 number but it went on forever," he told the operator. "My, my wife isn't home . . . I don't know where she is."

........ do we know to which organisation this 'operator' belongs?

 

[Sleuthis-maximus]

I wonder in the absence of being able to write it all down (obviously), how one and possibly others, keep track about what was said/agreed upon/contingencies etc? Especially with heightened adrenalin...

 

[Mountain Misst]

Link refers: http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...baden-clays-face/story-e6freoof-1226537344568
The released bail documents also provide details for the first time of Baden-Clay's emergency call to report his wife missing at 7.15am on April 20.

"I don't want to be alarmist. I tried the 131 number but it went on forever," he told the operator. "My, my wife isn't home . . . I don't know where she is."

........ do we know to which organisation this 'operator' belongs?

Yes, we do. GBC made a service call to 112 from his mobile phone at 7.15am on 20 April, 2012..

This number "112" is the internationally recognised emergency number which redirects, in Australia, to 000 - hence the apology to the operator for having dialled the emergency number as per above: "I don't want to be alarmist. I tried the 131 number but it went on forever..."

 

[Couldbe]

Yes, we do. GBC made a service call to 112 from his mobile phone at 7.15am on 20 April, 2012..

This number "112" is the internationally recognised emergency number which redirects, in Australia, to 000 - hence the apology to the operator for having dialled the emergency number as per above: "I don't want to be alarmist. I tried the 131 number but it went on forever..."

.... and so he is accountable for what he actually said to the operator (maybe it was even taped)...... any 'facts' that he might have relayed about Allison not being home, should match up with what he told the Police in attendance .... because it was around under 1 hour later.
If the operator is called as a witness, there could even be more information than has currently been made public. e.g. maybe the location of the phone being used for such phone calls are tracked. JMO

 

[Obsessor]

Link refers: http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...baden-clays-face/story-e6freoof-1226537344568
The released bail documents also provide details for the first time of Baden-Clay's emergency call to report his wife missing at 7.15am on April 20.

"I don't want to be alarmist. I tried the 131 number but it went on forever," he told the operator. "My, my wife isn't home . . . I don't know where she is."

........ do we know to which organisation this 'operator' belongs?

Yes this is the quote that made me think he had dialled through an emergency call, because he was waiting too long on their 131 number.

 

[Obsessor]

I wonder in the absence of being able to write it all down (obviously), how one and possibly others, keep track about what was said/agreed upon/contingencies etc? Especially with heightened adrenalin...

It would be impossible to keep track of the versions of events, and know what the others were saying, hence the need to remain silent, as anything you said could have made it obvious that you were lying, therefore hiding something.
I think the strategy they had agreed on was to make the day look as normal as possible- Al not there, on a walk most likely, but due to leave at 7.
When GBC was asked what time he got up, he's thinking, act normal, ok 6.15, his ussal wake up time. He forgot to allow a timeframe for everything he said he'd done to fit into, and to explain why his fears had risen so quickly to panic in 1 hour.

 

[Mountain Misst]

.... and so he is accountable for what he actually said to the operator (maybe it was even taped)...... any 'facts' that he might have relayed about Allison not being home, should match up with what he told the Police in attendance .... because it was around under 1 hour later.
If the operator is called as a witness, there could even be more information than has currently been made public. e.g. maybe the location of the phone being used for such phone calls are tracked. JMO

DPP will know which tower relayed the message at the least, as a result of their own enquiries and extraction of GBC's mobile, which is how they found out about the 'facetime' call mentioned at the first bail hearing.

"The released bail documents also provide details for the first time of Baden-Clay's emergency call to report his wife missing at 7.15am on April 20."

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...baden-clays-face/story-e6freoof-1226537344568

 

[Obsessor]

.... and so he is accountable for what he actually said to the operator (maybe it was even taped)...... any 'facts' that he might have relayed about Allison not being home, should match up with what he told the Police in attendance .... because it was around under 1 hour later.
If the operator is called as a witness, there could even be more information than has currently been made public. e.g. maybe the location of the phone being used for such phone calls are tracked. JMO

We have seen the exact words from that call in msm haven't we?

Here it is, from the 2nd bail hearing,

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...baden-clays-face/story-e6freoof-1226537344568

The released bail documents also provide details for the first time of Baden-Clay's emergency call to report his wife missing at 7.15am on April 20.

"I don't want to be alarmist. I tried the 131 number but it went on forever," he told the operator. "My, my wife isn't home . . . I don't know where she is."

Asked when he last saw her, he said the previous night.
"And I got up ah this morning and she, she wasn't there. And that's not unusual. She, she often goes for a walk in the morning . . . I've texted her and called her a number of times."

Baden-Clay told the operator his wife had a seminar in the city and she was planning to leave by 7am.

"I'm now driving the streets. My, my father's come over and, to look after the children," he said.

Responding to questions from the operator, he described his wife and says has "blondey, browney, redish" hair just "done" the previous night.

and this from 23rd June 2012,

http://www.news.com.au/national-old...d-in-court-claim/story-e6frfkvr-1226406037780

The documents say that on April 18, two days before he would place a Triple 0 call to report his wife missing, Baden-Clay picked up his iPhone, logged onto the internet and searched the term "taking the Fifth".

 

[DrWatson]

I'm fairly sure that all emergency calls (000, or 112 on mobiles) are recorded routinely. Not just as potential evidence, as in this case, but also to track down problems with responses, for example, with fire or ambulance calls.

This account of GBC's call would have come from such a recording.

Don't know if anyone remembers, but one of the emergency calls in those disastrous flash floods in Toowoomba 2 years ago was played over and over on MSM, when the young constable who took the call wouldn't believe that poor lady who was being washed away on the roof of her car - she and her son both died I think. And the constable who took the call was severely criticized for not believing or understanding the urgency of the situation, after telling her that she shouldn't have driven into a flooded creek! But it was the recording of the 000 call that brought all that to light - that's why I'm pretty sure GBC's call would have been recorded too.

 

[Obsessor]

If this murder was unplanned, there was a very short time-frame for his family to accept what had happened and jump to his assistance and dare I say, defence.
If NBC was involved in the disposal of the body, as has been suggested by sightings at the roundabout etc, he sprang to action, helping with the removal and dumping of the body of his daughter-in-law, very quickly.

I know they would have thought they had no choice, but they did manage to concoct their story, dispose of the body, seemingly remembering to both leave their phones at home so as not to be able to be shown to have been at Kholo, (that is my understanding, but maybe wrong- no techno here), busy themselves with the clean-up and leaving about zoloft packets (I am only presuming it was them here), and then remain united and stoic and committed to the story from that day forward.

To me, I would expect news such as this to take a lot of digesting and getting over.

Why, for example, in their panicked states in the middle of the night, did they not decide to go bush and bury Allison, thereby getting muddy boots, and dirty tyres, etc etc. How were they so fortunate to have chosen Kholo bridge where they didn't pick up any evidence. Didn't someone say most murderers do attempt to conceal the body?



I am finding the speed with which they all got their heads around what had occurred, and the clarity of thought during the night, hard to get a grip on, considering the horror of had happened.
If the death of Allison was completely unexpected and an absolute shock to the BC's, I am shocked by their ability to perform consistently and unwaiveringly.
(I'm not saying they were good actors, by the way, I'm saying they were unwaivering)

Putting myself in their situation, I would have been a mess. I would probably have collapsed, or thrown-up with nerves. (I dont cope with stress) I would have been shaking, inside and out.My voice would have been shaky.
I certainly would have avoided contact with the media and eye-contact with the cameras, which they did, but as a family, they have been solid, in my opinion. (not solid as a grieving family, but solid in their familial support.)

This makes me wonder, again, whether it was planned, as the police believe, but also whether the BC's also new of the plan.
Which brings me to the question....
Is it possible that NBC was in on the murder?

He could have been out on the back porch, in the dark. GBC could have lured Allison with any old story, and NBC could have Stepped out from behind the door (like in the movies) and wrapped something around her neck and strangled her. GbC might have been trying to help, from the front, and copped the scratches, but the bulk of the deed might have been from NBC.
I'm thinking along these lines, as he was a seasoned hunter, therefore accustomed to removing the emotions from a kill. I'm thinking it would have been easier for NBC to kill her than GBC due to emotional attachment.
Iit would have been fairly quick, occurring without waking the girls.
The 2 could have easily lifted Allison into the car.
He too stood to gain financially from Allisons death- although only by a small amount.
He knew about the lover in GBC's life, and it was discovered that he or EBC had helped GBC covertly contact her afterwards, so there was obviously a degree of support for this woman in GBC's life, and he may have been happy to help GBC to move forward with his life plans.
He was there for the carrying out of the deed, therefore he would be there for the reporting of Allison as missing and the arrival of the police. There is no way, if he did help with the murder, he would leave GBC unsupported the next day.
I believe OW was there to look after the children the next day, and NBC was there to support Gerard. That is why GBC thought he had to explain his fathers presence to the police when he called.

???

Some degree of planning for the disposal could have occurred previosly, which might explain why they managed to not have picked up any evidence for this part of the deed.


The initiial reports all stated that the police believed Allison knew her killer and that he/she likely had at least one accomplice.

NBC was not allowed a contact visit. OW was. What was the difference?

I remeber a search of NBCs house including the shed, and some items being taken for examination/evidence. I wonder if this was rope or wire. Actually if it was wire, it might explain the blood in the car.

Just putting the theory out there. What do you think??

 

[Obsessor]

Oh wow!!! That was a big post. Sorry guys.

 

[Couldbe]

If this murder was unplanned, there was a very short time-frame for his family to accept what had happened and jump to his assistance and dare I say, defence.
If NBC was involved in the disposal of the body, as has been suggested by sightings at the roundabout etc, he sprang to action, helping with the removal and dumping of the body of his daughter-in-law, very quickly.

I know they would have thought they had no choice, but they did manage to concoct their story, dispose of the body, seemingly remembering to both leave their phones at home so as not to be able to be shown to have been at Kholo, (that is my understanding, but maybe wrong- no techno here), busy themselves with the clean-up and leaving about zoloft packets (I am only presuming it was them here), and then remain united and stoic and committed to the story from that day forward.

To me, I would expect news such as this to take a lot of digesting and getting over.

Why, for example, in their panicked states in the middle of the night, did they not decide to go bush and bury Allison, thereby getting muddy boots, and dirty tyres, etc etc. How were they so fortunate to have chosen Kholo bridge where they didn't pick up any evidence. Didn't someone say most murderers do attempt to conceal the body?



I am finding the speed with which they all got their heads around what had occurred, and the clarity of thought during the night, hard to get a grip on, considering the horror of had happened.
If the death of Allison was completely unexpected and an absolute shock to the BC's, I am shocked by their ability to perform consistently and unwaiveringly.
(I'm not saying they were good actors, by the way, I'm saying they were unwaivering)

Putting myself in their situation, I would have been a mess. I would probably have collapsed, or thrown-up with nerves. (I dont cope with stress) I would have been shaking, inside and out.My voice would have been shaky.
I certainly would have avoided contact with the media and eye-contact with the cameras, which they did, but as a family, they have been solid, in my opinion. (not solid as a grieving family, but solid in their familial support.)

This makes me wonder, again, whether it was planned, as the police believe, but also whether the BC's also new of the plan.
Which brings me to the question....
Is it possible that NBC was in on the murder?

He could have been out on the back porch, in the dark. GBC could have lured Allison with any old story, and NBC could have Stepped out from behind the door (like in the movies) and wrapped something around her neck and strangled her. GbC might have been trying to help, from the front, and copped the scratches, but the bulk of the deed might have been from NBC.
I'm thinking along these lines, as he was a seasoned hunter, therefore accustomed to removing the emotions from a kill. I'm thinking it would have been easier for NBC to kill her than GBC due to emotional attachment.
Iit would have been fairly quick, occurring without waking the girls.
The 2 could have easily lifted Allison into the car.
He too stood to gain financially from Allisons death- although only by a small amount.
He knew about the lover in GBC's life, and it was discovered that he or EBC had helped GBC covertly contact her afterwards, so there was obviously a degree of support for this woman in GBC's life, and he may have been happy to help GBC to move forward with his life plans.
He was there for the carrying out of the deed, therefore he would be there for the reporting of Allison as missing and the arrival of the police. There is no way, if he did help with the murder, he would leave GBC unsupported the next day.
I believe OW was there to look after the children the next day, and NBC was there to support Gerard. That is why GBC thought he had to explain his fathers presence to the police when he called.

???

Some degree of planning for the disposal could have occurred previosly, which might explain why they managed to not have picked up any evidence for this part of the deed.


The initiial reports all stated that the police believed Allison knew her killer and that he/she likely had at least one accomplice.

NBC was not allowed a contact visit. OW was. What was the difference?

I remeber a search of NBCs house including the shed, and some items being taken for examination/evidence. I wonder if this was rope or wire. Actually if it was wire, it might explain the blood in the car.

Just putting the theory out there. What do you think??

.... initially, a common attitude to this murder was that there were so many inconsistencies in GBC's versions of events that it didn't appear to be planned.
Now, due to an apparent lack of evidence to link the BCs (seemingly remembering to both leave their phones at home so as not to be able to be shown to have been at Kholo), a common attitude is that it was planned ........ could the reason for this attitude change be caused by all the additional circumstantial evidence (insurance inquiries before/after Allison's death, affair(s), business as usual activities, etc.

..... having said this, carrying out his plan GBC could have enlisted his father's assistance on 'that night' when finding that he needed 'help' (of whatever that consisted). Although crazed and criminal, certainly possible they saw it as a solution to the financial problems and GBC's personal problem; and now GBC could be tried for murder.

..... just saying (without evidence to link them at Kholo), that someone outside the family may have done the 'disposing of Allison's body' for a fee.

 

[Obsessor]

.... initially, a common attitude to this murder was that there were so many inconsistencies in GBC's versions of events that it didn't appear to be planned.
Now, due to an apparent lack of evidence to link the BCs (seemingly remembering to both leave their phones at home so as not to be able to be shown to have been at Kholo), a common attitude is that it was planned ........ could the reason for this attitude change be caused by all the additional circumstantial evidence (insurance inquiries before/after Allison's death, affair(s), business as usual activities, etc.

..... having said this, carrying out his plan GBC could have enlisted his father's assistance on 'that night' when finding that he needed 'help' (of whatever that consisted). Although crazed and criminal, certainly possible they saw it as a solution to the financial problems and GBC's personal problem.

..... just saying (without evidence to link them at Kholo), that someone outside the family may have done the 'disposing of Allison's body' for a fee.

I think most theories include NBC as an accomplice in the disposal of the body, but I just thought it interesting to place him a bit earlier in the chain of events. Some of it makes sense to me.
Just thoughts...


Dont think anyone was paid to dump the body though. I suppose that could come into it, but we have nothing to suggest that at this stage.

 

[Zim]

He knew about the lover in GBC's life, and it was discovered that he or EBC had helped GBC covertly contact her afterwards, so there was obviously a degree of support for this woman in GBC's life, and he may have been happy to help GBC to move forward with his life plans.
He was there for the carrying out of the deed, therefore he would be there for the reporting of Allison as missing and the arrival of the police. There is no way, if he did help with the murder, he would leave GBC unsupported the next day.

Good obs there Obsessor !
The family stood to gain plenty. Allison was insured ( Big pay out, small term) and if the son then moved on to TM there was the potential for more 'comfort' financially speaking. (Prospective pay out 'long term') Who knows, getting away with it could have made TM the next 'tragic' suicide. (She got lucky ! I hope she prays and thanks that angel watching over her !)
I personally believe that the family was involved. This was a business 'operation', cold and callous. They (NBC and EBC) are going let their son take the fall. If I was the pastor I would watch my back.
I think GBC is weak. I think NBC is the brains and manipulated GBC.
In Africa your children provide for your old age. GBC was not doing a very good job....just sayin'.

BTW if GBC is insured and does himself in who are his beneficiaries ? His children or his parents ?

 

[Maigret]

I think most theories include NBC as an accomplice in the disposal of the body, but I just thought it interesting to place him a bit earlier in the chain of events. Some of it makes sense to me.
Just thoughts...


Dont think anyone was paid to dump the body though. I suppose that could come into it, but we have nothing to suggest that at this stage.

I don't think they would have paid someone - it would mean some one else knowing something