Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #42

[LadyBird1]

I recall it being reported that the police think she may have been killed as early as 8pm but I think it was later, after the girls went to bed, maybe somewhere between 9 and 10 pm, though that is just my theory.

An argument may have commenced as early as 8pm. (Left the hairdresser 6.30pm)
IMO The killing was not as easy as expected. And things didn't go according to plan.
Firstly it appears Allison put up one hell of a fight. That wasn't supposed to be part of the script.
So the actual killing may have become somewhat protracted.
(Scraps the dog barking like crazy was probably spot on, but there hasn't been an actual time supplied.)
It has been my thoughts that Allison was deceased between 9pm and 1.00am. Possibly even MN. Just my thoughts.

 

[LadyBird1]

Thanks Doc. I do agree with all you say here.

Regarding the plant material still being on her, I think if it was in her hair it would have stayed. Hair gets quite matted if treated roughly. Dragging her along a path would have matted some of the debri into her hair.
Once hair gets feral like this, it becomes a case of having to pick out the debri as it doesn't just slide out with a wash.
My dogs tail is an example.

If she were cocooned in a sheet or shower curtain and delivered to her final resting place, then there would not have needed to be any contact with the ground at all until she was placed. And any material in her hair may have been occurred later. Sheet or shower curtain later destroyed in say industrial bin.
IMO At this point in time, a suicide or even abduction was the preferred story line.
Therefore everything had to fit in with this part of the script.
Appeared to be Suicide or Abduction with fatal results.

 

[LadyBird1]

I recall there being reference made and reported in an msm article that there may have been a surrupitious attempt for new passports and passports for the girls. The Detectives learned about it before they arrested him. It was around the time Nigelaine were captured on camera hurriedly returning home and a neighbour collected their luggage from the boot of their car. This was shown on mainstream tv. The facts are both Bail Justice's determined that he remained a serious flight risk. Remember, the girls were placed in the care of the Dickies. In my honest opinion.

I have always considered him to be a Flight risk for no other reason. Skedaddle.
And home safe.
Wonder if there are public crime forums in Africa.
Even if there are, this is an Australian case and would be fairly irrelevant.

 

[Maigret]

I recall there being reference made and reported in an msm article that there may have been a surrupitious attempt for new passports and passports for the girls. The Detectives learned about it before they arrested him. It was around the time Nigelaine were captured on camera hurriedly returning home and a neighbour collected their luggage from the boot of their car. This was shown on mainstream tv. The facts are both Bail Justice's determined that he remained a serious flight risk. Remember, the girls were placed in the care of the Dickies. In my honest opinion.

More evidence of stupidity - did he really think no one from the passport office would think 'hang on- Baden-Clay - where have I heard that name ?'
:banghead:

 

[alioop]

I think if he had applied for passports, the prosecution would most certainly have raised it at the second bail hearing in relation to the issue of flight risk. That alone would have been sufficient to deny bail and the application for bail would have been a lot shorter. It wasn't mentioned so I don't think this rumour is true.

 

[privato]

Judging by Google Maps and the scale on the map, the Armco roadside barrier extends about 25-30 metres back from the bridge. Doesn't sound far, but carrying or dragging a body would make it seem like much further.

Given that there was no evidence of mud, gravel, or plants on either the car or GBC's clothes, then EITHER it had all been washed off very thoroughly (those Forensic Crime Scene techs don't miss much - even a hair!) or he didn't go off the road.
I'm still thinking he stopped ON the bridge, perhaps where the bridge railing proper starts, and she went over there. She was lying in thick mud, and had left a distinct impression in the mud from laying there, so perhaps the mud softened her landing somewhat, especially if the tide WAS up high at the time. Perhaps she DID land with a splash in water - even if it was right near the edge of it - and that may have cushioned her fall as well?

But the problem with that theory is the plant material found in her hair, clothes, and body. If she'd been lying in the edge of the water, with tides rising up and down and either partially covering her or fully covering her (although not moving her according to the hydrologist), I'm surprised that plant material survived the 11 days without being washed away, especially in that ridiculously heavy rain we had just before she was found.

Another little mystery....

Yes, Doc, I agree with your thoughts on this.
The words "there is NO evidence of GBC having been at Kholo Creek" in the defence's bail application, always worried me.
In my opinion, a VERY thorough clean and dispose job was done in the hours between Allison's body being moved to Kholo Creek, and early morning when more members of the family were called in to help with delivering the girls to school.
I know I've only ever posted twice (but I've been here the whole time!), and my last post was about those industrial bins.............but in my opinion, I don't believe that police would just randomly choose bins to search. I believe that they allege that there was crucial evidence that had been disposed of. Who knows, maybe the Kenmore Roundabout footage shows one of the cars heading off in the direction of Indooroopilly at one stage?

As our household bins were collected on the Monday morning following Allison's disappearance (we live in the area), I had a sinking feeling in my stomach. I am guessing that by that stage, though, police would have searched the bins at the BC house, and surely nobody would be THAT stupid.:banghead:

 

[Fuskier]

I think if he had applied for passports, the prosecution would most certainly have raised it at the second bail hearing in relation to the issue of flight risk. That alone would have been sufficient to deny bail and the application for bail would have been a lot shorter. It wasn't mentioned so I don't think this rumour is true.

Alioop this comment was alleged in msm. We do not know whether it was reporter assumption or fact. It did not specifically identify who had made the enquiry. We do not know whether it was just an enquiry or if it had reached the 'application' stage. It is also possible that someone other than GBC may have enquired about passports on his behalf i.e. a friend, a family member etc. Maybe Marlywings or another WS may recall similar or be able to locate the source article/video.

 

[CaseClosed]

Yes, Doc, I agree with your thoughts on this.
The words "there is NO evidence of GBC having been at Kholo Creek" in the defence's bail application, always worried me.
In my opinion, a VERY thorough clean and dispose job was done in the hours between Allison's body being moved to Kholo Creek, and early morning when more members of the family were called in to help with delivering the girls to school.
I know I've only ever posted twice (but I've been here the whole time!), and my last post was about those industrial bins.............but in my opinion, I don't believe that police would just randomly choose bins to search. I believe that they allege that there was crucial evidence that had been disposed of. Who knows, maybe the Kenmore Roundabout footage shows one of the cars heading off in the direction of Indooroopilly at one stage?

As our household bins were collected on the Monday morning following Allison's disappearance (we live in the area), I had a sinking feeling in my stomach. I am guessing that by that stage, though, police would have searched the bins at the BC house, and surely nobody would be THAT stupid.:banghead:

I agree. There was something specific that prompted QPS to search those industrial bins. Perhaps her phone, perhaps something specific missing from the house (towels, sheets, shower curtain, etc.).

I think so far, we have been lucky that GBC was denied bail, considering now that BladeRunner is free (even when he has admitted firing the 4 shots!). Incredible!!

 

[Fuskier]

... I know I've only ever posted twice (but I've been here the whole time!)...

Welcome Privato. Thanks for letting us know that you have been here reading the Thread the whole time. It's helpful when new members have read the Thread and know where the case discussion is up to. :Welcome1:

 

[CaseClosed]

If she were cocooned in a sheet or shower curtain and delivered to her final resting place, then there would not have needed to be any contact with the ground at all until she was placed. And any material in her hair may have been occurred later. Sheet or shower curtain later destroyed in say industrial bin.
IMO At this point in time, a suicide or even abduction was the preferred story line.
Therefore everything had to fit in with this part of the script.
Appeared to be Suicide or Abduction with fatal results.

This is when I think they made the most stupid mistake: calling it a suicide!! They should have stuck to the "abduction" story and I think it would have given him better chances. Thankfully for us, and the Dickies, he is still behind bars :jail:

 

[DrWatson]

If she were cocooned in a sheet or shower curtain and delivered to her final resting place, then there would not have needed to be any contact with the ground at all until she was placed. And any material in her hair may have been occurred later. Sheet or shower curtain later destroyed in say industrial bin..

Just thinking logically here - if she were wrapped in something eg shower curtain, then she may not have actually had ANY plant material from Kholo Creek area on her - at all..!

If you think about it, it is one of those exercises in logic. She had 6 species of plant material on her, ALL of which could be found near the back patio of the house. And only two of those coincided with the plant material to be found at Kholo Creek.

Therefore, she could have collected ALL of those bits of plant at the house (eg being carried or dragged out of the back door). There is absolutely no need to assume that she collected ANY from Kholo at all. The two species that coincided could have been already on her - she brought them with her from Brookfield.

The whole point of the plant comparison was that it was consistent with contamination at Brookfield near the back patio, but it was NOT consistent with contamination at Kholo Creek, as only 2 out of 6 species matched. It was NOT a case of 4 from Brookfield AND 2 from Kholo - it was all 6 from Brookfield, but only 2 of those were ALSO at Kholo.

So that report doesn't actually imply ANY contamination at Kholo - we may well have been barking up the wrong tree - er, bush with that thought. So it could be consistent with being wrapped up and getting NO contamination at Kholo, OR with being dropped, taken, or placed under the bridge with contamination by only two of the local species. If you see what I mean.....

 

[CaseClosed]

Just thinking logically here - if she were wrapped in something eg shower curtain, then she may not have actually had ANY plant material from Kholo Creek area on her - at all..!

If you think about it, it is one of those exercises in logic. She had 6 species of plant material on her, ALL of which could be found near the back patio of the house. And only two of those coincided with the plant material to be found at Kholo Creek.

Therefore, she could have collected ALL of those bits of plant at the house (eg being carried or dragged out of the back door). There is absolutely no need to assume that she collected ANY from Kholo at all. The two species that coincided could have been already on her - she brought them with her from Brookfield.

The whole point of the plant comparison was that it was consistent with contamination at Brookfield near the back patio, but it was NOT consistent with contamination at Kholo Creek, as only 2 out of 6 species matched. It was NOT a case of 4 from Brookfield AND 2 from Kholo - it was all 6 from Brookfield, but only 2 of those were ALSO at Kholo.

So that report doesn't actually imply ANY contamination at Kholo - we may well have been barking up the wrong tree - er, bush with that thought. So it could be consistent with being wrapped up and getting NO contamination at Kholo, OR with being dropped, taken, or placed under the bridge with contamination by only two of the local species. If you see what I mean.....

Yes, great point! IMO this would then indicate that the body WAS definitely wrapped in something until she was placed/dragged/dropped where she was found. The plant material then would also weaken the suicide theory and strengthen the theory that she died at home, i.e. murder. IMO.

 

[Fuskier]

Just thinking logically here - if she were wrapped in something eg shower curtain, then she may not have actually had ANY plant material from Kholo Creek area on her - at all..! <respectfully snipped>
... So that report doesn't actually imply ANY contamination at Kholo ... So it could be consistent with being wrapped up and getting NO contamination at Kholo, OR with being dropped, taken, or placed under the bridge with contamination by only two of the local species. If you see what I mean.....

Well analysed DrWatson. Thank you.

 

[LadyBird1]

Just thinking logically here - if she were wrapped in something eg shower curtain, then she may not have actually had ANY plant material from Kholo Creek area on her - at all..!

If you think about it, it is one of those exercises in logic. She had 6 species of plant material on her, ALL of which could be found near the back patio of the house. And only two of those coincided with the plant material to be found at Kholo Creek.

Therefore, she could have collected ALL of those bits of plant at the house (eg being carried or dragged out of the back door). There is absolutely no need to assume that she collected ANY from Kholo at all. The two species that coincided could have been already on her - she brought them with her from Brookfield.

The whole point of the plant comparison was that it was consistent with contamination at Brookfield near the back patio, but it was NOT consistent with contamination at Kholo Creek, as only 2 out of 6 species matched. It was NOT a case of 4 from Brookfield AND 2 from Kholo - it was all 6 from Brookfield, but only 2 of those were ALSO at Kholo.

So that report doesn't actually imply ANY contamination at Kholo - we may well have been barking up the wrong tree - er, bush with that thought. So it could be consistent with being wrapped up and getting NO contamination at Kholo, OR with being dropped, taken, or placed under the bridge with contamination by only two of the local species. If you see what I mean.....

Correct. No plant material from Kholo Creek. Clean carry.
Also stuffs up the "went for a walk" story.

 

[Mountain Misst]

Doc, GBC did a property inspection in the area that day didn't he? Remember the story about the cut in his hand when he was changing a lightbulb. The location of that property is very close to Kholo Creek bridge.

re my quote, correction after checking: the property at Anstead near Kholo Creek bridge was the one where C21 had problems with the tenants, not the one where GBC alleged he cut his hand (that was in Pullenvale). Oops got my A's and P's mixed up.

 

[Obsessor]

Just thinking logically here - if she were wrapped in something eg shower curtain, then she may not have actually had ANY plant material from Kholo Creek area on her - at all..!

If you think about it, it is one of those exercises in logic. She had 6 species of plant material on her, ALL of which could be found near the back patio of the house. And only two of those coincided with the plant material to be found at Kholo Creek.

Therefore, she could have collected ALL of those bits of plant at the house (eg being carried or dragged out of the back door). There is absolutely no need to assume that she collected ANY from Kholo at all. The two species that coincided could have been already on her - she brought them with her from Brookfield.

The whole point of the plant comparison was that it was consistent with contamination at Brookfield near the back patio, but it was NOT consistent with contamination at Kholo Creek, as only 2 out of 6 species matched. It was NOT a case of 4 from Brookfield AND 2 from Kholo - it was all 6 from Brookfield, but only 2 of those were ALSO at Kholo.

So that report doesn't actually imply ANY contamination at Kholo - we may well have been barking up the wrong tree - er, bush with that thought. So it could be consistent with being wrapped up and getting NO contamination at Kholo, OR with being dropped, taken, or placed under the bridge with contamination by only two of the local species. If you see what I mean.....

Could just confirm "dragged" at Brookfield, "dropped" at Kholo. Landing on the mud flat as you said, would pick up little foliage, and if she wasn't "dragged" through the foliage it might not matt in her hair- so therefore could have washed off in the rain??

Great logical thinking by the way Doc.

 

[Obsessor]

The apparent discrepancy between where we now know she was found, the tidal levels, the creek flooding, and the hydrology report, still bothers me somewhat.

Could you explain what you're getting at here? I'm not with you. Ta.

 

[Obsessor]

Triple posting, as I'm just catching up for the day- sorry folks.

The shower curtain bothers me as an explanation. I know there was an absent shower curtain in the house for rent photos, but really can we logically expect that because of this GBC likely used it to transprt Alliosn? There was never one mentioned in msm or in bail documents, so I think we're stretching the imagination to include that in theories.
MOO, could be wrong, and all that, but applying the keep it simple theory...
to me its a stretch.

OK- someone elses turn!! hehehe

 

[Fuskier]

I recall there being an allegation reported in msm that a surrupitious enquiry/attempt may have been made for new passports and passports for the girls. The Detectives learned about it before they arrested him. It was around the time Nigelaine were captured on camera hurriedly returning home and a neighbour collected their luggage from the boot of their car. This was shown on mainstream tv. The facts are both Bail Justice's determined that the alleged murderer remained a serious flight risk. Remember, the girls were placed in the care of the Dickies. In my honest opinion.

http://www.news.com.au/national-old...lay-bail-hearing/story-e6frfkvr-1226405475543
'HE'S A REAL FLIGHT RISK': Why Gerard Baden-Clay was denied bail
By Kate Kyriacou and AAP News Limited newspapers, June 22, 2012.
"Flight is a real possibility," Justice David Boddice said today, announcing his decision over a bail application heard in Brisbane's Supreme Court. IMO for the Court to determine that he was 'a real flight risk' - despite allegedly having no valid passport - they would need evidence upon which to make that determination.

 

[Obsessor]

Possum, or any local, when you drive over the Kholo Bridge, can you easily see the Brisbane River, in the daylight of course???