Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #47

[Trooper]

If GBC dressed Allison's body in the clothing following her death, I wonder why he would have bothered with a jacket, as well as a top.... would just take more time and effort.

...... so maybe, as stated as a possibility in the Autopsy Report, the jacket was used as a ligature in strangulation!

edited by me...

maybe, could be, he redressed her because he murdered her at night, the original story was going to be that Al went for a walk at night, .he assumes she would bung a jacket on.. but his timing was all off come morning,, things went to hell for Gerard very early and his yarn about a morning walk , a bit of quick blithering, him driving around looking for her , with the big chunks out of his face and all....first thing Const Ash noticed, and you have to wonder how come Bwana didn't and Olivia didn't>> ?? those scratches were like a beacon to Const Ash...

 

[Couldbe]

JMO The murder activities don't seem to have occurred quietly ........ screams (at different times on the night of the 19th .... between about 9 pm and 11.30 pm) were heard by residents who lived in fairly close proximity nearby. From memory, I think a resident who lives not far from the GBC residence in Brookfield Rd in the timeframe, heard a car screech to a stop and take off again shortly after. (The houses on properties along Brookfield are some distance from the road; the road is not really in direct vision from the houses.)
Taking into account reports of the screams ...... doesn't quite fit that:

1. Allison would have been drowned in the bath;
2. Strangled quickly from behind while on the lounge;
3. Strangled while in their bed;

There could have been screaming at the residence ...... and just maybe, for whatever reason, Allison did walk up Brookfield Rd ..... and was removed from the road to a vehicle (possibly more screaming) .... It seems that Allison was not the screaming type (GBC's own words in his statement). However, I am sure she would scream if she felt threatened!
Whatever occurred after that night ...... well Allison met her demise.

As you say Trooper, GBC then got the idea to add Allison's shoes (GBC said that these are usually by the door) and a jumper to what she was already wearing.

 

[Makara]

JMO but I don't think GBC dressed Allison in her walking gear. I think that Allison changed into her comfy clothes when she arrived home from the hairdresser.

Do any of the locals recall what the weather was like on the night of 19th April 2012? Would it have been cool enough to necessitate wearing a jumper? I just can't see GBC putting the jumper on Allison. What would be the point? It may have been used as a ligature during the murder while Allison was wearing it but I think that Allison's cause of death was far more brutal.

Allison was actually wearing the jumper when she was found, although it was pulled up around her neck, her torso was inside the jumper, not just wrapped around her neck.

The thought has crossed my mind that Allison may have put her runners on and left the house after a violent argument. Perhaps she was trying to get away from GBC and he followed her in his car and ran her down. I keep thinking back to some of the witness statements at the committal hearing where they said they heard a loud sharp yell or scream coming from the front of the Baden-Clay house. Could that have been Allison being hit by a car?

Why didn't any of these witnesses call the police? Perhaps they did and this will be revealed at the trial.


Witnesses testify at committal hearing of Gerard Baden-Clay, charged with murdering wife Allison

Kate Kyriacou
The Courier-Mail
March 11, 20134:17PM

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...594302360?sv=4ac863cbd3ace59e365dac5d72df8356

Witness Fiona White, who lives in Kenmore Hills, told the court she heard a scream while standing outside her back door. Her home is close to the Baden-Clay property. Ms. White said she heard two screams but was not certain of the date.

"It was high pitched, two screams," she said.

"It was loud enough that I worried.

"I thought to myself, I hope she's OK."

Kim Tzvetkoff, who lives across from the Baden-Clay house, told the court he also heard a shout from across the road.

"It was a startled or a shocked yell out," he said.

"Possibly no more than a couple of words which I couldn't discern what they even were.

"Something startling had happened.

"I wouldn't describe it as a scream.

"I feel it was a startled, shocked reaction."

He said he was convinced it was a woman's voice.

"I did say 'what was that?'," Mr Tzvetkoff said.

"And I stood there for a moment and it wasn't repeated."

Witness Julie Tzvetkoff lives across from the Baden-Clay home and said she heard yelling coming from that direction between 8pm and 9pm on April 19.

"It was sharp, loud," she said.

"I couldn't tell if it was male or female."

Ms Tzetkoff said the noise came from directly opposite where the Baden-Clays lived - not to the right or the left.

"A very sharp hard yell that lasted about one and a half seconds," she said.

Ms Tzetkoff said her dog - which normally only barked at the sound of doors opening and closing - also barked that night.

"Car doors or other doors? What is this door fetish that your dog has?" Mr Davis asked.

Ms Tzetkoff said her dog often barked at the sound of car doors when visitors came over.

Susan Braun, a neighbour of the Baden-Clays, has taken the stand.

Ms Braun said she was home and in her bedroom on the night of April 19 when she heard her neighbours' dogs barking at 10pm.

"They were very loud barking, very agitated," she said.

At 11.30pm, after falling asleep, Ms Braun said she woke to loud noises.

"I got woken up to very loud human noise," she said.

"Out the front, in the area of the Baden-Clays' residence.

"It sounded like yelling.

"It was a very unpleasant sound.

"As to whether it was a scream or a yell or anything like that...

"It woke me up and it wasn't a pleasant sound because I woke up with a start and thought 'oh my goodness, what is that?'.

"I laid there waiting to hear more.

"I heard it twice.

"I fell back asleep and I was woken up again to it a second time.

"I woke up once again concerned."

BBM.

 

[sosocurious]

There was a lot of discussion in the earlier threads in reference to the prompt response of the police.
The rapid response has always intrigued me.
The 000 call was maximum of 4 minutes given GBC phoned at 7.15 am and then phone OW at 7.19 am IMO red flags were raised during or because of this call.

Why? Maybe calls had been received re disturbance, scream etc in the area as you said Makara.
.
GBC's call to 000 would certainly have raised a red flag if this was indeed the case.

However IMO the content of GBC's 000 call alone could have raised a red flag.

Quotes from 000 transcript
Operator -- When did you last see her Sir?
GBC --- Um (indistinct) last night when WEto bed. Um (indistinct) and I went to bed. and I got up ah this morning and she wasn't there. And that's not unusual . She often goes for a walk in the morning.

No mention of lounge or footy show. Just WE/I went to bed.

Quote from 000
Operator -- OK, alright what's your wifes ?
GBC --- Im, I'm driving the streets My my father come over and to look after MYchildren.
Operator --- Yeah, Okay so whats y ---- what's your wife's name first of all ?

Has not yet given his wife a name but is ensuring it is known MY children are home with my father.

Why? the immediate concern this morning if it is not unusual for ABC to take morning walks.
Why? is father already at the house with HIS children so he can drive the streets.

I think if I was a 000 operator my hinky meter (I think you call it Makara) would be elevated.

 

[Liadan]

A big thanks to everyone for all the help in determining whether GBC stayed in hospital your comments have all helped - GBC had no phone so its difficult to track his movements after the accident.

 

[possumheart]

A big thanks to everyone for all the help in determining whether GBC stayed in hospital your comments have all helped - GBC had no phone so its difficult to track his movements after the accident.

Bruce Flegg loaned him one via his female offsider I believe.

 

[marlywings]

JMO but I don't think GBC dressed Allison in her walking gear. I think that Allison changed into her comfy clothes when she arrived home from the hairdresser.

Do any of the locals recall what the weather was like on the night of 19th April 2012? Would it have been cool enough to necessitate wearing a jumper? I just can't see GBC putting the jumper on Allison. What would be the point? It may have been used as a ligature during the murder while Allison was wearing it but I think that Allison's cause of death was far more brutal.

Allison was actually wearing the jumper when she was found, although it was pulled up around her neck, her torso was inside the jumper, not just wrapped around her neck.

The thought has crossed my mind that Allison may have put her runners on and left the house after a violent argument. Perhaps she was trying to get away from GBC and he followed her in his car and ran her down. I keep thinking back to some of the witness statements at the committal hearing where they said they heard a loud sharp yell or scream coming from the front of the Baden-Clay house. Could that have been Allison being hit by a car?

Why didn't any of these witnesses call the police? Perhaps they did and this will be revealed at the trial.


Witnesses testify at committal hearing of Gerard Baden-Clay, charged with murdering wife Allison

Kate Kyriacou
The Courier-Mail
March 11, 20134:17PM

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...594302360?sv=4ac863cbd3ace59e365dac5d72df8356
BBM.

Temps for 19thApril,2012....bearing in mind these are for Brisbane & they can vary by a temp or three or so in outer suburbs. By all reports from back then, it was a cool night.

Max Temperature 26 °C

Min Temperature 17 °C

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/YBBN/2012/4/19/DailyHistory.html
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As for Allison's clothes. I think if police were able to retrieve the CCTV from the hairdresser they would know exactly what she was wearing at that time. Hairdresser would also have given police a description..even though that's not mentioned in the affidavit. She could very well have still had on those same clothes she was found in??

------------------------------------

A couple of things I've always wondered re cause of death. Was she pushed down those front stairs. Did he hit her with the car. Both of those would have caused injuries of some degree??...enough to show or not show in autopsy though??

Strangulation with that jumper is always possible too.

 

[marlywings]

A big thanks to everyone for all the help in determining whether GBC stayed in hospital your comments have all helped - GBC had no phone so its difficult to track his movements after the accident.

As possumheart has mentioned, he had a phone on loan. He would have also had access to payphones at the hospital.

 

[possumheart]

Do any of the locals recall what the weather was like on the night of 19th April 2012? Would it have been cool enough to necessitate wearing a jumper?

According to thread 1 it was 18 degrees overnight

 

[Liadan]

Yes GBC had been lent a phone practically from the moment he lost his to the police - but as far as I know there are no phone records that are available for this phone?

Hence GBC's whereabouts are not as transparent as when he was using his own phone. If this is incorrect - please do not hesitate to let me know!

 

[marlywings]

Adding in where it was mentioned GBC had a phone on loan...

"... after Allison Baden-Clay disappeared, Gerard Baden-Clay was lent a phone by Bruce Flegg - without the then Minister's knowledge

[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8953788&postcount=571"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #42[/ame]

 

[Couldbe]

It is difficult to imagine that, given the loud screaming which it is surmised came from Allison, GBC wasn't deterred in his pursuing of her ...... even though as things progressed it seems that nobody (e.g. neighbours) came to investigate.
He would surely have worried that somebody may come to investigate ...... and in that case, he would have wanted to leave the scene pretty quickly .... before Allison's body was discovered.
........ if he had a concern that someone might have responded to the screams, then he probably wouldn't have hung around at home changing her clothing either.

.......So, did he head straight out to the Kholo Creek Bridge ..... or did he just leave the area, park somewhere and 'phone a friend'?

If he had accomplished Allison's murder quietly, it is much easier to imagine that he acted alone; but because of the commotion that occurred, somehow it is harder to imagine someone else wasn't involved.

If he had planned just how he was going to commit the evil deed, one would think that it would have been done surreptitiously, and the resulting commotion would not have occurred! Maybe the last part had been planned in his head!

 

[Trooper]

there was lots of roundabout cctv experiments and re -hashing , a particular car going back and forth etc....maybe there was more than one trip to the Kholo bridge ..

What we do know.. and Gerard knows, and the police know is that there was no 'walk' by Al either in the hours after the hairdresser or in the morning.... when Gerard made that crucial call at 7.15am, Al was long dead and discarded, before midnight, probably ( barks , screams, missing phone etc)....

Reading the transcript of the call and the subsequent Record of Interview ( the only 'statement' Gerard has ever made) makes for fascinating reading, in the light of what is known.... here is Gerard, trying to be a worried husband, a baffled man, then a worried brother, son and father, and an upstanding and connected citizen, togged out in shirt and cufflinks, a man on a mission to carry on with major business who has encountered a slight hitch.... a missing wife.

Kieron Ash's first question... 'What did you do to your face' must have put Gerard RIGHT OFF his performance from the start....

 

[Trooper]

Because the call to report Alisons maddening lateness was a performance.... a pantomime...a winged Kabuki event, ditto the Interview... all a play, all a loose script . a not very well thought out one, but hey... the calls to Alisons phone promoting himself as the man at the helm,('I've done the lunches!') the bit about 'driving round' looking for her.. the apparent urgency for a vacuuming session by the old man, the handy sister, etc... all an adlib performance.

 

[sosocurious]

Trooper you have such a way with words - i agree to make it on topic

 

[Couldbe]

...speaking of Allison's phone Trooper, Allison's phone records document does show a WAP/Internet Session at 6.31 am (Telstra Fig Tree Pocket Tower site). This is just after GBC arose and commenced calling his family. Someone must have been in possession of her phone, and in an area close to home! Hopefully Telstra could provide more information about that call...... the wonder is who used the phone, and why?

 

[Trooper]

I think what put Gerard already off his stride was the girl who called early in the morning.. Al and she had arranged to drive together to the function, the real estate thingy, and Gerard didn't know this detail ( see transcript of interview),,, I think her call put a cat among Gerards pigeons big time... he then has to be worried much earlier than originally decided, in my opinion... I think he was going to be the puzzled guy when told Al didn't turn up at the function, not this early morning stuff...

 

[Trooper]

...speaking of Allison's phone Trooper, Allison's phone records document does show a WAP/Internet Session at 6.31 am (Telstra Fig Tree Pocket Tower site). This is just after GBC arose and commenced calling his family. Someone must have been in possession of her phone, and in an area close to home! Hopefully Telstra could provide more information about that call...... the wonder is who used the phone, and why?

oh he had the phone... he knows where it is...

 

[Trooper]

Only one person on this earth doesn't want Allisons phone to surface!

 

[sosocurious]

Could be NBC and EBC internet records show they connected to net at 6.32am on the 20th. Very coincidental the times.