Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #47

[Makara]

After reading Constable Kieran Ash's statement yet again, there are some glaring lies from GBC. Constable Ash was onto him almost immediately. :rocker:

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Ash stated that upon arrival at the Brookfield house at 8:00am, he noticed Olivia Walton walking the three girls down the front stairs of the house and putting them into a blue sedan. Constable Ash noted the following vehicles parked at the Brookfield house.

1. An older model silver Holden Statesman parked directly in front of the house, facing down the driveway. NBC's car.

2. A white Toyota Prado was parked across the driveway. Allison's car.

3. A silver Holden Captiva was reverse parked under the carport of the house. GBC's car.

4. There was also a blue sedan parked at the end of the driveway facing the house. The police car was parked behind the blue sedan. OW's car.

GBC told Constable Ash that he'd called his sister Olivia to come and drive the girls to school in the blue sedan.

At the time of arriving at the house at 8:00am GBC was dressed in business attire with tie and cuff links. Ash also observed the scratches on GBC's face. GBC told Ash that he cut himself shaving while rushing to get the girls ready that morning.

GBC told Ash that he'd been out searching for Allison in the silver Captiva that morning. The Captiva was now reverse parked in the carport of the house.

GBC then said that he'd driven around a few of the local streets that Allison normally walked along but couldn't find her and had to return home to get his daughters up, give them breakfast and get them ready for school as well as get himself ready by having a ****, shower and shave.

GBC said that OW had also been out looking for Allison, driving up and down the local streets.

Constable Ash asked GBC if it was definitely the Captiva that he took out in search of Allison and when he got home, reversed it around the Prado into the carport. GBC said he did and it was easy for him to reverse around the Prado.

Now let's look at the time frame of events on the morning of Friday 20 April 2012.

GBC phoned the police at 7:15am.

"I'm now driving the streets and my father has come over to look after the children. I need to go home and get the kids ready for school."

Prior to GBC phoning the police he made the following calls.

6:20am: Text to Allison: "Good morning! Hope you slept well? Where are you? None of the girls are up yet! Love G."

6:32am: Allison.

6:38am: Allison.

6:41am: Text to Allison: "Al, getting concerned. Where are you? The app doesn't say either? H and S now up. I'm dressed and about to make lunches. Please just text me back or call! Love G."

6:45am: Allison.

6:46am: EBC.

6:53am: Sergeant Murray Watson - witness to the accident in the Prado earlier that week and is part of the Kenmore Hills neighbourhood watch program.

6:55am: OW.

7:02am: Allison.

7:03am: Allison.

7:06am: OW.

7:09am: Kate Rankin (Belle Real Estate).

7:11am: OW.

7:15am: Police.

7:19am: Olivia.

7:35am Allison.

7:39am: OW.

Now look at the times between all of these calls. GBC started texting and phoning at 6:20am and did not come up for air until 7:39am. So my question is when did he find the time to take the Captiva out to search for Allison and then return home to have his shower, shave etc.? Remember - GBC told Constable Ash that he had to return home to get the girls up and ready for school and to also have his ****, shower and shave. Did he have the phone in the shower with him? No! He had his ****, shower and shave prior to texting Allison at 6:20am. GBC was up early. In fact he'd been up all night! And the girls slept through all of the commotion going on that night? I don't think so because they weren't there!

GBC had reverse parked the Captiva around the Prado into the carport after he'd dumped Allison's body and that's where the Captiva stayed. GBC didn't drive around looking for Allison that morning.

Why would GBC phone his father to come and look after the girls and then phone OW to take them to school? Why couldn't NBC have taken them to school? Because the girls weren't there! OW brought the girls back from skull manor to get ready for school as had already been arranged the previous night. Why did OW leave with the girls at 8:00am as soon as the police arrived? IMO 8:00am is a bit early to take them to school when it was only a short distance away.

From Constable Ash's Affidavit:

28. Shortly after Gerard's sister Olivia Walton arrived back at the address after having taken the children to school. She went upstairs into the house but quickly returned back downstairs. I asked her what the girls had been told this morning, she said "that Gerard told the girls shortly after 6am that mummy had gone for a walk and probably fell down a hole and won't be coming back." She then asked "is that ok?"

I'm still gob smacked at this! What a ridiculous thing to say, even if it was in jest! I've always thought that this was sarcasm on OW's part. "Is that ok?" What the hell does that mean? OW said that GBC told the girls this shortly after 6:00am, yet in his text message to Allison at 6:20am he said that none of the girls were up and in his text message to Allison at 6:40am he said two of the girls were now up. I suppose it all boils down to how you interpret 'shortly' after 6:00am.

Oh what a tangled web etc. etc.

 

[alioop]

If it is proven at trial that the girls were not home that night, which I believe to be the case, GBC is cactus for want of a more suitable legal term!
So who can give evidence about that. The girls of course, OW, Elaine and Nigel, the latter 3 by subpoena. Other people may have seen them leaving the BC house in the morning to go to Brookfield, neighbours maybe, CCTV of Olivia's car with kids in it, locals etc.
The person I want to see the most in the witness box is Olivia. Surely she will be wanting " the truth" to be told!

 

[they'll get you]

So much irrelevant activity that morning, Father BC was TOLD TWICE not to remove anything else from the property. He seemed hell bent on putting both the vacuum cleaner & hose into his car. I'm wondering if any police photos showed recently hosed & wet areas around the house, Allison's blood was in the Captiva.
Another intriguing thing was the effort to back the Captiva around the Prado and then into the garage, was that to hide the back of the car recently cleaned & to display the Zoloft?
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Just give us justice for Allison.
Great posts guys!

 

[Couldbe]

So much irrelevant activity that morning, Father BC was TOLD TWICE not to remove anything else from the property. He seemed hell bent on putting both the vacuum cleaner & hose into his car. I'm wondering if any police photos showed recently hosed & wet areas around the house, Allison's blood was in the Captiva.
Another intriguing thing was the effort to back the Captiva around the Prado and then into the garage, was that to hide the back of the car recently cleaned & to display the Zoloft?
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Bail Hearing Documents *No Discussion*
Just give us justice for Allison.
Great posts guys!

They'll get you .... I know it is pedantic to quote from Kieran Ash's Statement that he found the medication in the dashboard (could have been in the glove box, and I guess could have been medication for her 'flu that she told the Hairdresser about. Unless there evidence somewhere else that it was Zoloft!
In the 'GBC interview transcript', he even had at his fingertips the exact details about Allison having her hair done that night for the third time, following that they stuffed it up the first two. I guess Allison had to justify going to the Hairdresser, and there would not be a cost involved.

He told them that there was to be a sleepover for Olivia's three children with Allison's children at the house on Brookfield Rd .. on the night of the 20th April (the day that he reported her missing)! Although, from memory of early posts, this doesn't seem to be what was to happen on the night following Allison attending the conference.
..... the inconsistencies just go on, and on.

 

[Amee]

So much irrelevant activity that morning, Father BC was TOLD TWICE not to remove anything else from the property. He seemed hell bent on putting both the vacuum cleaner & hose into his car. I'm wondering if any police photos showed recently hosed & wet areas around the house, Allison's blood was in the Captiva.
Another intriguing thing was the effort to back the Captiva around the Prado and then into the garage, was that to hide the back of the car recently cleaned & to display the Zoloft?
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Bail Hearing Documents *No Discussion*
Just give us justice for Allison.
Great posts guys!

I agree and as if Allison would leave the Zoloft in the carport. I also still wonder what GBC purchased at the chemist that morning....

He said packets of Zoloft were found in the couple's Holden Captive and in the carport of the couple's Brookfield home.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...re-supreme-court/story-fndo2iwh-1226536987434

 

[LadyBird1]

Ladybird1 .... I have checked in the Kieron Ash Statement, and it is worthwhile reading through that again. Constable Ash includes wording in it to the effect that Olivia was walking three children down the stairs and then put them into a vehicle (no mention if they were school uniforms). He saw GBC standing at the top of the stairs. GBC, following stating that Olivia was his sister and that he had called her and asked her to take his children to school. (didn't actually say 'come and take them to school' though!) he then asked for the Police vehicle to be moved to enable Olivia to drive off with the children .... in the blue sedan (facing the house at the end of the driveway) which was parked just in front of the Police vehicle. Constable Ash also stated that the Captiva was reverse parked under the carport at the left of the house, silver Holden Statesman was parked facing down the driveway directly in front of the house, a white Toyota Prado was parked across the driveway.
He observed that GBC was dressed in business attire with tie and cufflinks. When GBC was questioned with regard to definitely having taken the Captiva out that morning to look for Allison, he replied that he did, and it was easy for him to reverse around the Prado.

...... so, really nothing to say that Olivia hadn't brought them with her to the house that morning. 8 am is quite early to be taking the children to school (considering it is probably less than 5 minutes drive away)....Children arriving prior to 8:30am should attend Before School Care (from School website). Olivia told Constable Ash that GBC had told the girls shortly after 6 am that Allison had gone for a walk and probably fell down a hole and would not be back. (Unlikely that at that time around 6 am, he would be telling them anything to that effect, as he should have expected that Allison would be returning from her walk!)

I appreciate vey much that you have gone back to the Kieron Ash statement, and re-iteratated that "Olivia was walking three children down the stairs and then put them into a vehicle"
I believe that the Ash statement can be taken on face value, as true and correct.
I was wrong in suggesting that the children had not entered the house at all that morning. My apologies.
I think they were delivered early enough to make it appear they had slept there though. IMOO.
How could anything untoward possibly have occurred in the house with the children present? Not a bad alibi.
Then with the talk of a sleepover at some time at some place, the focus went awry even further.
I believe the children's first "concerns" when they arrived, were "Where's Mummy?
An "explanation" was given.
And then the police arrived.
And the children were whisked away promptly.

I also believe it is true, that the children hold many keys.
Unless they were later brain-washed with a "more palatable" version of events. Or required to be subject to de-briefing sessions that they might "remember things" in a more suitable manner.

On another matter entirely, (thanks again for supplying parts of the Kieran Ash statement), I believe that the placing of the cars; meaning how, where and when they were parked, is vitally critical to events on that morning.
Every tiny detail is important. What car has a cold or warm engine. What car has been sitting idle for any length of time. Which ones came in first second or third.

Seems like this whole family is expecting this event will all blow over, and life will continue with "business as usual."
And with some added money to boot.
And "Any publicity is good publicity"! Right?

 

[they'll get you]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30822&d=1363405639

Constable K. Ash said he put the prescription medicine on the bonnet on the vehicle. Ladybird, I wonder if he noticed the engine was warm or cold but it wasn't mentioned in his statement.
He's still a wonderful cop!

 

[Mountain Misst]

I suggest that we don't lose sight of the fact that the police took statements from the girls.

 

[Makara]

So much irrelevant activity that morning, Father BC was TOLD TWICE not to remove anything else from the property. He seemed hell bent on putting both the vacuum cleaner & hose into his car. I'm wondering if any police photos showed recently hosed & wet areas around the house, Allison's blood was in the Captiva.
Another intriguing thing was the effort to back the Captiva around the Prado and then into the garage, was that to hide the back of the car recently cleaned & to display the Zoloft?
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Bail Hearing Documents *No Discussion*
Just give us justice for Allison.
Great posts guys!

Perhaps GBC didn't reverse the Captiva around the Prado at all. The Prado may have been parked in a different position when the Captiva was reversed into the carport and then parked where it was located when the police arrived.

 

[Makara]

I suggest that we don't lose sight of the fact that the police took statements from the girls.

That they did MM. I'm wondering though if these statements will be admissable at the trial? They would obviously be unsworn statements which could open up a whole can of worms for the prosecution. The defence could question the competence of the girls and this competency is allowed to be tested with the assistance of someone professionally qualified or with whom the child has a rapport.

Most State and Territory legislatures have fixed a specific age below which children are presumed incompetent to give evidence. That being the age of seven.

Children's evidence

Rules of evidence

http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/14-childrens-evidence/rules-evidence

14.63 In all Australian jurisdictions a child who is incompetent to give evidence on oath may give unsworn evidence.[163] In general terms, the law requires that the judge ascertain whether the child can understand and respond rationally to questions and give an intelligible account. Additionally, the child must promise to tell the truth. In some States there is also the additional requirement that the witness appreciate the duty or obligation that the promise entails.[164] Under the Evidence Act a witness who is found incompetent may give unsworn evidence where

'..the court is satisfied that the person understands the difference between the truth and a lie; the court tells the person that it is important to tell the truth; and the person indicates, by responding appropriately when asked, that he or she will not tell lies in the proceeding'.[165]

14.64 Wherever a question regarding the competency of a witness arises, the trial judge is expected to undertake inquiries of the witness.[166] The Evidence Act permits the court 'to inform itself as it thinks fit'.[167] This provision allows a child's competency to be tested with the assistance of someone professionally qualified or with whom the child has a rapport. For example, expert evidence may assist the judge to determine whether a particular child is capable of understanding and responding to certain questions. As the formal surroundings of most courtrooms and the dress of the judge and counsel may be intimidating to a child and can make questioning children a difficult task,[168] this provision may also permit the child's competency to be tested out of court or in a modified courtroom setting.

 

[Mountain Misst]

That they did MM. I'm wondering though if these statements will be admissable at the trial? They would obviously be unsworn statements which could open up a whole can of worms for the prosecution. The defence could question the competence of the girls and this competency is allowed to be tested with the assistance of someone professionally qualified or with whom the child has a rapport.

Most State and Territory legislatures have fixed a specific age below which children are presumed incompetent to give evidence. That being the age of seven.

Children's evidence

Rules of evidence

http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/14-childrens-evidence/rules-evidence

14.63 In all Australian jurisdictions a child who is incompetent to give evidence on oath may give unsworn evidence.[163] In general terms, the law requires that the judge ascertain whether the child can understand and respond rationally to questions and give an intelligible account. Additionally, the child must promise to tell the truth. In some States there is also the additional requirement that the witness appreciate the duty or obligation that the promise entails.[164] Under the Evidence Act a witness who is found incompetent may give unsworn evidence where

'..the court is satisfied that the person understands the difference between the truth and a lie; the court tells the person that it is important to tell the truth; and the person indicates, by responding appropriately when asked, that he or she will not tell lies in the proceeding'.[165]

14.64 Wherever a question regarding the competency of a witness arises, the trial judge is expected to undertake inquiries of the witness.[166] The Evidence Act permits the court 'to inform itself as it thinks fit'.[167] This provision allows a child's competency to be tested with the assistance of someone professionally qualified or with whom the child has a rapport. For example, expert evidence may assist the judge to determine whether a particular child is capable of understanding and responding to certain questions. As the formal surroundings of most courtrooms and the dress of the judge and counsel may be intimidating to a child and can make questioning children a difficult task,[168] this provision may also permit the child's competency to be tested out of court or in a modified courtroom setting.

Thank you Makara, however my reference to the girls having already made statements to the police was in relation to the current discussion in the thread as to where the girls might have slept on the night Allison died. I should imagine the answer to that question would already be recorded.

I had not considered that a question as to whether the girls slept at home or not on that night, would be grounds for a challenge.

 

[Couldbe]

Just some info from the Autopsy Report:

(a) 'The death scene' may not have been the actual place of death.

(b) Distance of the bridge above the water - was 14m.

(c)Two police officers were winched down to where Allison's body lay, and undertook some sampling; (wonder what this entailed exactly? Measurements of imprints).

(d) Two police officers, with a QFRS officer, rolled the body onto a tarpaulin and placed it onto a stretcher and it was then winched it up onto the bridge.

(e) The embankment on which the body was found was sloped.

(f) After the body was removed, a depression corresponding to the contour of the body was evident in the underlying mud.


So, .....I attempt to make a point here, that 14m is quite a drop ....... and if Allison's body hit the earth/mud over that distance, one would think it likely that the 'landing' would cause the depression in the mud to, at least initially, be deeper at a first point of impact ..... maybe feet first / or head first.
I guess the sloped embankment would have to be taken in account, and this aspect could contribute to establishing any irregularity between the expected impact depression and the impact depression that did occur.

..... this mud depression would be different if her body had been carried / and laid onto the mud (or dry earth). There would also be likely to be some foot prints in/or under mud.

..... so, ..... eliminate that Allison had jumped / establish if her body was dropped from the bridge / or establish if her body was carried down and laid there under the bridge.

The body was clothed in what appeared to be a jacket which was up around her head and neck region.
Her hands were entangled within the garment. As this garment could potentially have been a ligature, he did not remove it from the neck, or remove the hands from the garment.
The body was also clothed in a singlet with incorporated bra, 3/4 length pants and sneakers. Light coloured underpants.
Short white socks with a darker band at the top.
On initial examination, the laces of both shoes are tied up, but upon removal of the shoes the left shoelace came partially undone. (as others have suggested, hope they were able to note whether these could have been tied up by another person!).

 

[Makara]

Thank you Makara, however my reference to the girls having already made statements to the police was in relation to the current discussion in the thread as to where the girls might have slept on the night Allison died. I should imagine the answer to that question would already be recorded.

I had not considered that a question as to whether the girls slept at home or not on that night, would be grounds for a challenge.

Thanks MM. My reference was also in relation to where the girls slept on the night Allison died. If the girls' statements are used by the prosecution and they conflict with the statements of OW and Nigelaine as to where the girls slept that night, I'm thinking that the defence could challenge the competence of the girls in giving their statements and that is something I would not like to see happen. It's all hypothetical at the moment and I'm sure the legal eagles will handle the girls with the utmost care.

 

[marlywings]

Happy Australia Day to all our Aussie members

http://www.australiaday.org.au/australia-day/

 

[McCoy]

With all the confusing talk of sleepovers, I thought we decided a while ago (through clever deduction) plus someone providing extra information that

1] Thursday 19th the BC girls had a sleepover with their cousins (Olivia's children) at Skull Manor, hence Allisons mention of having "a night off" being able to spend time at the hairdressers and not rush home to cook dinner

2] Friday 20th the cousins were to come to a sleepover at Brookfield - this is what the talk of a sleepover is about.

Hopefully they do have evidence as to where the children spent the night, if they can show the text messages GBC spent were totally fabricated this would go a long way in showing he was covering up for something.

 

[Thinking]

With all the confusing talk of sleepovers, I thought we decided a while ago (through clever deduction) plus someone providing extra information that

1] Thursday 19th the BC girls had a sleepover with their cousins (Olivia's children) at Skull Manor, hence Allisons mention of having "a night off" being able to spend time at the hairdressers and not rush home to cook dinner

2] Friday 20th the cousins were to come to a sleepover at Brookfield - this is what the talk of a sleepover is about.

Hopefully they do have evidence as to where the children spent the night, if they can show the text messages GBC spent were totally fabricated this would go a long way in showing he was covering up for something.

I agree with all of this McCoy. Also, if the girls were indeed at skull manor on the 19th evening, then GBCs entire family must know that he is lying about their whereabouts by indicating to police that the girls were home, which means the BCs know he is guilty and are covering for him and his lies, or they themselves are somehow involved.

The BC family are only (potentially) absolved from the whole thing if the children did in fact spend the night in their own beds and the whole story about dad and sis coming to help in the morning are true. Am I right?

 

[Couldbe]

I agree with all of this McCoy. Also, if the girls were indeed at skull manor on the 19th evening, then GBCs entire family must know that he is lying about their whereabouts by indicating to police that the girls were home, which means the BCs know he is guilty and are covering for him and his lies, or they themselves are somehow involved.

The BC family are only (potentially) absolved from the whole thing if the children did in fact spend the night in their own beds and the whole story about dad and sis coming to help in the morning are true. Am I right?

Thinking, I think that you would be right that the BC family could have just been supporting GBC in his lies (if the children slept the night at the BC Seniors' house).
Doesn't necessarily involve them as accomplices to murder, but there could be other charges pending.

Allison's friend Kerry-Ann Walker told the Media something along the lines of: That Friday was a busy day for her. She had a full-day conference in town and the kids were having a sleepover that night, so she would have got all her stuff ready.
I had texted her that day, the Thursday, and she texted me back that night saying she'd drop around on her way home from this conference .
She arranged to drop some stuff off for me on the way home.

..........The time of Allison's text message back to her friend would be of interest ...... if it in fact it was sent by Allison herself and was following her hair appointment, it could at least indicate a crucial time for Allison to be alive that night; however, she may have sent it while whiling away the time at the hairdresser.

........ I wonder if the children's sleepover could, in fact, have been arranged for them to spend the night at Kerry-Ann's home?
For whatever reason, GBC may initially have thought it would be better to confine talking about 'planned' activities to within the BC family.....and thereby maintain continuity of his 'story' being supported by them; maybe wasn't thinking quite straight ...... that Police would just be investigating a missing Alison, and not that they would be inquiring further and wider.

 

[BreakingNews]

OMG, what a lot of issues to consider. Thanks everyone.

What I have always wondered about is OW's blue car. She lived in Townsville and unless she drove the 1000+ km to Brisbane, it is unlikely that she would have a car just sitting at Kenmore. Didn't TM also have a blue car? Could OW's car have been on loan from TM?

And on the subject of the police interviewing the girls - I have interviewed many young children in my previous job in child abuse - it is very difficult for young children to stick to a script while being interviewed. So even if they were coached about what to say, I believe that Police would have seen through this and have gotten to the truth.

Only a week or so to go until the counsellor goes to court. Anyone know which court this will be held in? And anyone going? <modsnip>

 

[LadyBird1]

OMG, what a lot of issues to consider. Thanks everyone.

What I have always wondered about is OW's blue car. She lived in Townsville and unless she drove the 1000+ km to Brisbane, it is unlikely that she would have a car just sitting at Kenmore. Didn't TM also have a blue car? Could OW's car have been on loan from TM?

And on the subject of the police interviewing the girls - I have interviewed many young children in my previous job in child abuse - it is very difficult for young children to stick to a script while being interviewed. So even if they were coached about what to say, I believe that Police would have seen through this and have gotten to the truth.

Only a week or so to go until the counsellor goes to court. Anyone know which court this will be held in? And anyone going? If so PM me if you want to meet up.

Thank you Breaking News.
It breaks my heart to think of the children interviews.
Particularly in the light that they were subject to "de-briefing sessions."
Whatever and why-ever that means.
Breaks my heart also to think of the after school return when the QPI were all over the place at home.
Gee whiz, I wonder why?
"It will be all right though, Mummy will know. And will explain. Mummy is consistent" (Translate that last bit into child terminology)

And that blue car. What number plate exactly? And what make exactly?

 

[LadyBird1]

And on another completely different note:
Somewhere between now and when, I am going to re-construct that all important scene,
on a table in front of my own eyes, using marked matchboxes or toy cars, (or whatever), including the wide driveway, and see if I can visualize the scene.
Any one else is welcome to play this "game."
Named a visual re-construction.
If I am not mistaken, even the QPI officer requested confirmation of a certain vehicle.
Something suspicious, need to clarify.