Amanda Berry, Gina deJesus & Michelle Knight - General discussion #4

[mysteriew]

In its indictment, the grand jury also specified that Castro “committed the offense [of aggravated murder] with a sexual motivation.” It also deemed him “a sexually violent predator.”

http://kosu.org/2013/06/grand-jury-indicts-ariel-castro-on-329-counts/

Wow! That is more than I could have hoped for!

 

[mysteriew]

Cnn just announce 329 counts indicted including aggravated murderer of fetus

329! The prosecutor is actually trying to follow through on his promises!

 

[SCHMAE]

Thanks to all of you who posted the CNN info! I missed it somehow and was glad to see it here. Well, glad isn't the right word... disgusted is better... but I was glad to see the news.

Schmae re: aggravated murder of a fetus I was wondering the same thing. It's just a Google search but I found this: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2903. Here's what it says:

(A) No person shall purposely, and with prior calculation and design, cause the death of another or the unlawful termination of another's pregnancy.

(B) No person shall purposely cause the death of another or the unlawful termination of another's pregnancy while committing or attempting to commit, or while fleeing immediately after committing or attempting to commit, kidnapping, rape, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated robbery, robbery, aggravated burglary, burglary, trespass in a habitation when a person is present or likely to be present, terrorism, or escape.

Interesting to note under B: is that it doesn't include assault, it seems? I found that odd, but it could probably fall under the numerous other things that are included.

TKS, my bet is it's this stuff I bolded.

 

[gramcracker]

any thoughts re the dates of the crimes, which (thus far) end in Feb 2007? the only 2007 event in any timeline I've located is the disappearance of Ashley Summers in July. if Amanda's child is 6, she was born in 2007. color me confused

 

[gramcracker]

Ohio has a provision in its law that allows the prosecutor to charge a person with a count of aggravated murder if done with the intent of forcing a pregnant woman to terminate her pregnancy by miscarriage through physical assault.
http://www.redstate.com/cheetah772/2013/05/11/personhood-issue-aggravated-murders-vs-abortions/

To secure a guilty verdict for fetal homicide, prosecutors typically have to show that a killer clearly meant to murder the unborn baby by assaulting the mother in a way that would trigger an early end to the pregnancy.

But proving intent is not the challenge facing the prosecutor in Cuyahoga County, said Heidi Rummel, a law professor at the University of Southern California.

"The hardest part, I imagine, would be proving causation — you have to show the actions actually caused the death. And years after the fact that might be somewhat of a challenge," added Rummel, a former federal prosecutor in Washington, D.C. and in Los Angeles. "We don't know how far along (the victim) was. It's hard to know for sure if it was a miscarriage or not. But the intent seems pretty clear based on the facts I've read."

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...in-cleveland-kidnapping-case-expert-says?lite

the hardest part ... proving causation? disgusting to the nth degree

 

[JerseyGirl]

Cuyahoga County Prosecutor said the indictments covered only the period from August 2002, when the first of the three women disappeared, until February 2007.

Besides the murder charge, the grand jury indicted Castro on 177 counts of kidnapping, 139 counts of kidnapping, seven counts of gross sexual imposition, three counts of felonious assault and one count of possession of criminal tools.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...h-murder-hundreds-of-rape-assault-counts?lite

 

[gitana1]

Boy this guy is a monster. The indictment shows how he tried to suffocate (if you read between the lines), one gal with a pillow, tried to strangle another with a vacuum cord, or at least did these things to them to scare them, chained one to a pole in the basement and put a motorcycle helmet on her head, taped another one's legs and mouth, and chained each of them in various places (upstairs, to a heater, in the van, in the basement).

I have a feeling he threatened them with death at various times. I think it;s also possible that he planned to remove one or all of them from the home and kill them in a remote area at some point or at various points, but he changed his mind or they convinced him not to.

 

[fruity]

Wow. 329 charges.

139 counts of rape, 177 of kidnapping, 7 of gross sexual imposition, 3 of assault, and owning criminal tools.

He's never going to see the light of day again.

 

[KaaBoom]

Cuyahoga County Prosecutor said the indictments covered only the period from August 2002, when the first of the three women disappeared, until February 2007.

Besides the murder charge, the grand jury indicted Castro on 177 counts of kidnapping, 139 counts of kidnapping, seven counts of gross sexual imposition, three counts of felonious assault and one count of possession of criminal tools.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...h-murder-hundreds-of-rape-assault-counts?lite

Makes me wonder why it only coves through February 2007.

 

[SophieRose]

Boy this guy is a monster. The indictment shows how he tried to suffocate (if you read between the lines), one gal with a pillow, tried to strangle another with a vacuum cord, or at least did these things to them to scare them, chained one to a pole in the basement and put a motorcycle helmet on her head, taped another one's legs and mouth, and chained each of them in various places (upstairs, to a heater, in the van, in the basement).

I have a feeling he threatened them with death at various times. I think it;s also possible that he planned to remove one or all of them from the home and kill them in a remote area at some point or at various points, but he changed his mind or they convinced him not to.

The indictment also shows that Jane Doe1 and Jane Doe2 were taken to the garage and then chained in the van in 2005. I didn't see a charge on that for Jane Doe3 but it was mentioned in earlier reporting that all three women were taken outside and then to the garage. That was the one time in all those years they briefly saw/felt the outside.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Makes me wonder why it only coves through February 2007.

I think that's as far as they got. I believe we'll hear more:

“Today’s indictments represent a first major step in the criminal justice process,’’ said McGinty. “Our investigation continues, and we will present our findings to the grand jury.’’

``When the indictment process is complete, the County Prosecutor’s Capital Review Committee will consider whether this case is appropriate to attach a death penalty specification," McGinty said.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/06/ariel_castro_indicted_on_charg.html

 

[JerseyGirl]

The indictment also shows that Jane Doe1 and Jane Doe2 were taken to the garage and then chained in the van in 2005. I didn't see a charge on that for Jane Doe3 but it was mentioned in earlier reporting that all three women were taken outside and then to the garage. That was the one time in all those years they briefly saw/felt the outside.

Jane Doe 2, tried to escape from the home in 2003, and was later chained to a pole in the basement with motorcycle helmet on her head, according to the charge. She also had her legs and mouth taped, she was chained to a heater in a bathroom, and assaulted with a vacuum cleaner cord around her neck, the indictments said.

Castro assaulted Jane Doe 3 with a pillow, and restrained her with chains and tape, the charges said.

Jane Doe 1 was restrained in an upstairs bedroom and chained to a pole in the basement, the charges said.

At times, the women were taken out of the house to Castro's garage and chained inside a van, the charges said.

Castro is charged with two counts of aggravated murder -- each of the charges for the same act of terminating the pregnancy of Jane Doe 1 between Nov. 1, 2006, and Feb. 28, 2007. It was the woman's fourth lost child during her captivity, according to the indictment.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/06/ariel_castro_indicted_on_charg.html

 

[SCHMAE]

Wow. 329 charges.

139 counts of rape, 177 of kidnapping, 7 of gross sexual imposition, 3 of assault, and owning criminal tools.

He's never going to see the light of day again.

I wonder how they arrive at a number of 177 for kidnapping. Does anyone know ? I would think either THREE counts of kidnapping OR 3 x however many days they were held which would be in the 10s of thousands. Curious stuff.
I wonder how these ladies are doing. What a horror show. I've said many times and I still do not want to know the details. My imagination can tell me most of what went on . However if they decide to tell their stories, I hope they all make MILLIONS on them so they can at least have one less thing to worry about as they put together their lives.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Makes me wonder why it only coves through February 2007.

Maybe those numbers will double by the time they are done accumulating all the charges?

 

[Jn24]

Just sharing some of my thoughts:

I've been in Cleveland all of my life, mostly the suburbs, but much of my family was inner city. In the poorer neighborhoods, it's not unheard of to live in a old and rundown house. I've been in homes where entire rooms were filled to the rim with junk. Basements so rundown that they go unused and end up locked off. People don't want you in all areas of their home because they are a wreck! AC's oldest daughter said that he complained her old room was full of junk and that's why she couldn't go in there. He probably kept people in his kitchen/living room and I don't think many people would find that entirely odd around here.

I know this is true. I'm from the Greater Cleveland area myself, own rental properties (actually within 4-5 blocks of where all 3 girls were abducted) that get filled up with peoples junk. And these are nice city doubles. I'm always tossing out entire tree lawns of stuff when people move. Its not hard to imagine entire rooms being out of commission. Now think of people that own these old houses, don't move& do not rent. I've looked at homes like this for sale to investors like me, that have areas u can't even access! So its possible that people wouldn't really think it completely strange that there are rooms not fit to look into. Heck I was at one house, the third floor of which had had motorcycles hanging on chains from the rafters as they were being worked on.

 

[KaaBoom]

I wonder how they arrive at a number of 177 for kidnapping. Does anyone know ? I would think either THREE counts of kidnapping OR 3 x however many days they were held which would be in the 10s of thousands. Curious stuff.

If I'm understanding it correctly they are charging him with kidnaping for each time he moved them from the house to the garage, and then again when he moved them back to the house. Seems a little weird to me, how they can charge someone with kidnaping someone who have already been kidnapped. But I guess they know what they are doing.

The rape charges are also interesting too. It seems they are charging him with raping the victims on a monthly basis. On or about October 1 to October 31, on or about November 1 to November 30, etc. How do they come up with that? Why not weekly, or daily, or every two months. I don't understand how they are going to prove something that vague.

 

[ktgirl]

I know this is true. I'm from the Greater Cleveland area myself, own rental properties (actually within 4-5 blocks of where all 3 girls were abducted) that get filled up with peoples junk. And these are nice city doubles. I'm always tossing out entire tree lawns of stuff when people move. Its not hard to imagine entire rooms being out of commission. Now think of people that own these old houses, don't move& do not rent. I've looked at homes like this for sale to investors like me, that have areas u can't even access! So its possible that people wouldn't really think it completely strange that there are rooms not fit to look into. Heck I was at one house, the third floor of which had had motorcycles hanging on chains from the rafters as they were being worked on.

It really makes me wonder if there aren't some people out there posing as "hoarders" because they have people hidden in their home or on their property. You wouldn't want to venture deep into a hoarder's home (or at least I wouldn't from what I've seen on the TV shows...they sometimes find all sorts of trash and dead animals in the rubbish). I seem to remember Philip Garrido (Jaycee Duggard's captor) living in a way that was almost "hoarder-ish" as well.

 

[SophieRose]

Boy this guy is a monster. The indictment shows how he tried to suffocate (if you read between the lines), one gal with a pillow, tried to strangle another with a vacuum cord, or at least did these things to them to scare them, chained one to a pole in the basement and put a motorcycle helmet on her head, taped another one's legs and mouth, and chained each of them in various places (upstairs, to a heater, in the van, in the basement).

I have a feeling he threatened them with death at various times. I think it;s also possible that he planned to remove one or all of them from the home and kill them in a remote area at some point or at various points, but he changed his mind or they convinced him not to.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/06/ariel_castro_indicted_on_charg.html#incart_river

One of the women, identified as Jane Doe 2, tried to escape from the home in 2003, and was later chained to a pole in the basement with motorcycle helmet on her head, according to the charge. She also had her legs and mouth taped, she was chained to a heater in a bathroom, and assaulted with a vacuum cleaner cord around her neck, the indictments said.

http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/302638/45/LATEST--Ariel-Castro-indicted-by-grand-jury

Berry was abducted on April 21, 2003. He taped her legs and mouth. He also raped Berry that day after she attempted to escape, according to the indictment.

Castro then chained her to a pole in the basement and placed a motorcycle helmet on her head. The next day, he chained Berry to a heater in a bedroom for a time, according to the indictment.

On Aug. 21, 2003, Castro wrapped a vacuum cord around Berry's neck and assaulted her.

 

[SophieRose]

If I'm understanding it correctly they are charging him with kidnaping for each time he moved them from the house to the garage, and then again when he moved them back to the house. Seems a little weird to me, how they can charge someone with kidnaping someone who have already been kidnapped. But I guess they know what they are doing.

The rape charges are also interesting too. It seems they are charging him with raping the victims on a monthly basis. On or about October 1 to October 31, on or about November 1 to November 30, etc. How do they come up with that? Why not weekly, or daily, or every two months. I don't understand how they are going to prove something that vague.

http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/302638/45/LATEST--Ariel-Castro-indicted-by-grand-jury

Sometime between Aug. 2005 and Oct. 31, 2005, Castro took both Knight and Berry to his garage, where he chained them to the inside of a van for sexual purposes, according to the indictment. He then took them back into the house.

 

[SophieRose]

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/lo...esus-and-family-get-new-privacy-fence-donated

Ruiz invited NewsChannel5 onto her property Friday as Matt McMillen with Budget 1 Fence out of Berea took measurements. The fence he’s donating is a solid dog-eared fence that would replace their current chain-linked fence and prevent on-lookers from peeking in.

“At least Gina and Nancy will be able to come out in the yard and enjoy themselves and everything else," McMillen said.

Before now, there was a blue tarp up that Ruiz said was originally need, but soon after, needed to go.

“That was horrible, especially for my daughter,” Ruiz said. “It was like being in hiding again... She cried a lot because she couldn’t come out.”