Amanda Knox Discussion-Friendly Thread

[FergusMcDuck]

If you're correct on all, then the entirety of the original investigation and trial was completely without any merit whatsoever. It's very hard to accept that. I understand police can get things wrong, but this would have been a sinister conspiracy from start to finish.

Except this has happened before and after, not just in Italy. All it takes is the police getting tunnel vision from an early stage, and they will only look for evidence that support them and interpret every statement against her. The key witness they found was a heroin addict who was high as a kite during the night in question and mentioned buses that only went the night before - but he said what the police wanted to hear, confirmed their (not very coherent) theory, so he was believed.

I mentioned all their evidence against Lumumba - all of it without any merit whatsoever. Is it hard to accept that Lumumba was completely innocent?

 

[SMK777]

I mentioned all their evidence against Lumumba - all of it without any merit whatsoever. Is it hard to accept that Lumumba was completely innocent?

But Lumumba was never in any kind of forgetful fog from smoking weed. He never changed his story. He did not keep insisting that he was confused or couldn't remember. He had an airtight alibi, and was living as a business owner with a partner and their infant child.

The police could have kept insisting as with Knox and Sollecito that Patrik was lying and refuse to release him. In my opinion, they viewed him differently because he behaved differently.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

It wasn't.





She didn't run across town, I don't know where you got that from. Amanda went to her apartment the following day to shower and change, and took the mop with her as she walked back to Raffaele's. This was between 11 and 12 in the morning.

Are you saying the mop wasn't washed / used with bleach or a bleach based cleaning agent? That's what I understood - that AN had taken the mop over to R's home and also purchased some cleaning product / bleach. Is that not correct?

Also the issue of her statement about taking a large bag of her clothes to be laundered whilst seemingly not wearing her usual clothes (wearing a thin white skirt at stark odds with wintery cold weather).

 

[FergusMcDuck]

But Lumumba was never in any kind of forgetful fog from smoking weed.

Neither did Amanda and Raffaele. They had the same story from the start as they do now - the police just refused to believe them.

He never changed his story. He did not keep insisting that he was confused or couldn't remember. He had an airtight alibi, and was living as a business owner with a partner and their infant child.

The only difference is that he had an alibi in the end. But that wasn't my point - my point was that the police didn't want to check it. I listed all the evidence they had against him earlier - everything without merit. Yet that was the info they had no problem presenting to a judge to keep him imprisoned. The witness who finally gave him his alibi was accused of being in a criminal enterprise with Lumumba.

If they had managed to discredit that witness, would Lumumba have been released? Would he have been dismissed just like the computer information that essentially cleared Raffaele? Would they have found an equally flimsy piece of DNA as what they had against Amanda and Raffaele? Remember, initially, the newspapers reported Guede as a fourth suspect, not as the replacement of Lumumba.

The police could have kept insisting as with Knox and Sollecito that Patrik was lying and refuse to release him. In my opinion, they viewed him differently because he behaved differently.

They dragged him out in his underwear in front of his family, drove him through the town for everyone to see, called him racist slurs in the police station. They kept his bar closed for about a month after he was cleared, for no actual reason.

Lumumba didn't break like Amanda and Raffaele did, that's true. He was older, more experienced and I suspect a lot stronger than those two. But that he didn't wasn't due to any lack of effort from the Perugia police.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Are you saying the mop wasn't washed / used with bleach or a bleach based cleaning agent? That's what I understood - that AN had taken the mop over to R's home and also purchased some cleaning product / bleach. Is that not correct?

She never purchased cleaning products. That was a witness who changed his story a year later to put her in his store in the morning (wearing a jacket that she didn't own, but one he would have seen on tv - it was the jacket Raffaele lent her when they were rushed out of the cottage to wait for the rest of the police to arrive) looking at cleaning products - but even he said she didn't buy any. And his employee denied ever seeing her in the store.

So no, there was no bleach used on the mop.

Also the issue of her statement about taking a large bag of her clothes to be laundered whilst seemingly not wearing her usual clothes (wearing a thin white skirt at stark odds with wintery cold weather).

She never made such a statement. And this is the first time I've heard anything about the skirt being thin.

 

[docyabut]

Amanda Knox is not guilty, Meredith `s boy friend was the last one to see her

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Amanda Knox is not guilty, Meredith `s boy friend was the last one to see her

I agree with the former, but Meredith's boyfriend wasn't the last to see her. Her killer, Rudy Guede, was obviously the last one. Before that she was seen on CCTV walking towards the cottage ca 21:00. Before that it was her friend Sophie Purton who she had walked home, and left 5-10 minutes before. Meredith had a boyfriend but he had travelled back to his hometown for the holiday.

 

[SMK777]

Amanda Knox is not guilty, Meredith `s boy friend was the last one to see her

Giacomo Silenzi was out of town and thus had an alibi.

 

[docyabut]

Giacomo Silenzi, who lived in a walk-out semi-basement apartment of the building, shared an interest in music with Kercher and Knox and often visited their

Amanda Knox - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Giacomo Silenzi, who lived in a walk-out semi-basement apartment of the building, shared an interest in music with Kercher and Knox and often visited their

Amanda Knox - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Indeed he did, but he was from the Marche province and had gone home for All Saints Day. He had asked Meredith to water the cannabis plants he and his roommates were growing in their apartment. He had nothing to do with the murder.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

She never purchased cleaning products. That was a witness who changed his story a year later to put her in his store in the morning (wearing a jacket that she didn't own, but one he would have seen on tv - it was the jacket Raffaele lent her when they were rushed out of the cottage to wait for the rest of the police to arrive) looking at cleaning products - but even he said she didn't buy any. And his employee denied ever seeing her in the store.

So no, there was no bleach used on the mop.



She never made such a statement. And this is the first time I've heard anything about the skirt being thin.

Thanks for clarification

My words the skirt was 'thin' but it was a white summery skirt in my opinion, long but cotton / linen. It did look odd when everyone else was dressed in padded jackets and heavy clothes and boots IMO.

 

[SMK777]

Neither did Amanda and Raffaele. They had the same story from the start as they do now - the police just refused to believe them.



The only difference is that he had an alibi in the end. But that wasn't my point - my point was that the police didn't want to check it. I listed all the evidence they had against him earlier - everything without merit. Yet that was the info they had no problem presenting to a judge to keep him imprisoned. The witness who finally gave him his alibi was accused of being in a criminal enterprise with Lumumba.

If they had managed to discredit that witness, would Lumumba have been released? Would he have been dismissed just like the computer information that essentially cleared Raffaele? Would they have found an equally flimsy piece of DNA as what they had against Amanda and Raffaele? Remember, initially, the newspapers reported Guede as a fourth suspect, not as the replacement of Lumumba.



They dragged him out in his underwear in front of his family, drove him through the town for everyone to see, called him racist slurs in the police station. They kept his bar closed for about a month after he was cleared, for no actual reason.

Lumumba didn't break like Amanda and Raffaele did, that's true. He was older, more experienced and I suspect a lot stronger than those two. But that he didn't wasn't due to any lack of effort from the Perugia police.

Why is it that when asked to look at the knives in the kitchen drawer at the villa, Knox began to hit her head and cover her ears and cry? None of the other girls reacted in this way, even though they were all distraught.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Why is it that when asked to look at the knives in the kitchen drawer at the villa, Knox began to hit her head and cover her ears and cry? None of the other girls reacted in this way, even though they were all distraught.

First of all, none of the other girls were dragged around the crime scene like Amanda was. Second, why is that reaction odd? This is a young woman whose friend and roommate had been brutally murdered and she's asked to look at knives in her kitchen, with the implication that one of them could be the murder weapon. There is absolutely no reason to think her reaction was strange.

 

[SMK777]

First of all, none of the other girls were dragged around the crime scene like Amanda was. Second, why is that reaction odd? This is a young woman whose friend and roommate had been brutally murdered and she's asked to look at knives in her kitchen, with the implication that one of them could be the murder weapon. There is absolutely no reason to think her reaction was strange.

I don't think being upset or crying would be odd. I think hitting her head and covering her ears was odd. And it made Mignini wonder if she was at the scene, which I can understand.

Also, it wasn't until some weeks later that luminol indicated that blood had been in the hallway. This expanded the crime sce

First of all, none of the other girls were dragged around the crime scene like Amanda was. Second, why is that reaction odd? This is a young woman whose friend and roommate had been brutally murdered and she's asked to look at knives in her kitchen, with the implication that one of them could be the murder weapon. There is absolutely no reason to think her reaction was strange.

I don't think being frightened or crying would be strange, but I think hitting her head and covering her ears led them to think she might have witnessed some part of the crime.

Also some weeks later luminol detected blood in the hallway, thus expanding the murder scene beyond Kercher's bedroom. Before his arrest, Guede had mentioned blood in the corridor. He could only know this if he'd been at the scene. But that leaves the question: Who had cleaned it up after he fled?

 

[CrimeDawg123]

FWIW I thought she was innocent, still do.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

I don't think being frightened or crying would be strange, but I think hitting her head and covering her ears led them to think she might have witnessed some part of the crime.

That was just Mignini's idiotic reasoning. They had already decided she was guilty at that point, so a perfectly normal reaction from a traumatized woman becomes this bizarre relived memory.

Also some weeks later luminol detected blood in the hallway, thus expanding the murder scene beyond Kercher's bedroom. Before his arrest, Guede had mentioned blood in the corridor. He could only know this if he'd been at the scene. But that leaves the question: Who had cleaned it up after he fled?

Except the problem is that the prints on the hallway revealed by luminol weren't made in blood. Luminol reacts to more than blood which is why you have to do follow-up test. And when they did, those tests were negative for blood. All of them.

This is also evidenced by the lack of streaks and other marks through the footprints. If they had been bloody and then deliberately cleaned up, the luminol would have revealed that. Fact is except Rudy's bloody shoeprints (which were visible of faint) there was no blood on the hallway, cleaned up or otherwise.

The prosecution attempted to hide these negative tests, and the defense didn't find out about them until the first trial was almost done.

 

[concernedcitizen706]

I saw a picture of the bloody white bath mat with the bloody footprint on it. It was a pretty big bloody footprint. Amanda didn't maybe figure something was wrong after she saw that?

I find it incredibly hard to believe that Amanda mopped up a bunch of blood in the bathroom, and decided, hey I think I'll take this bloody mop over to my boyfriend's house. Carrying a bloody mop across town seems kind of weird too. And when they tested it later, there was no blood on it. So they must have used a lot of bleach to get the blood off. I don't think just casually using some bleach would necessarily get all the blood off the mop. They must have taken more efforts than that. Why did they bleach the mop? And how often do you use bleach on a floor? I mean you could discolor a lot of stuff around there. It was very strange.

The only thing that exculpates them for me is that Rudy seemed to have no idea who they were, when he gave his testimony. Even when he changed it, he did not really provide good descriptions of them. I think if the two were involved, Rudy would have sold them out in a second.

So to me it seems like, Rudy killed Meredith, but Amanda and her boyfriend also had a role in it, separate from Rudy. Because the two did not seem to come across each other too much. Or Rudy would have had a better description.

So how would that work? Maybe they found Meredith almost dead. And then they stabbed her again for the final blow? Because they didn't want Meredith to testify against them she lived? I'm not sure, but maybe something along those lines.

Or maybe there were some sex games. Like the Italian prosecutor said. Maybe they drugged Meredith. And they had a sex game with her. They left. And Rudy heard about it before, because more people were supposed to be there, and got in after they left and killed Meredith. I don't know, I'm just brainstorming here.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

I saw a picture of the bloody white bath mat with the bloody footprint on it. It was a pretty big bloody footprint. Amanda didn't maybe figure something was wrong after she saw that?

It was also made in very diluted blood and was faint to the eye. Look at pictures 18 and 19 here.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that Amanda mopped up a bunch of blood in the bathroom, and decided, hey I think I'll take this bloody mop over to my boyfriend's house. Carrying a bloody mop across town seems kind of weird too. And when they tested it later, there was no blood on it. So they must have used a lot of bleach to get the blood off. I don't think just casually using some bleach would necessarily get all the blood off the mop. They must have taken more efforts than that. Why did they bleach the mop? And how often do you use bleach on a floor? I mean you could discolor a lot of stuff around there. It was very strange.

The answer is simple: they didn't mop up blood in the bathroom. There's no evidence anyone did. First of all, why would they want to clean up the bathroom? They were the ones who called the police, at 12:51. If there had been more blood in the bathroom the only difference would be that they'd likely call the police an hour or two earlier, and what purpose would that delay serve?

Second, no evidence of a clean-up was found in the bathroom. The whole point of luminol and the like is that they detect blood that has been cleaned up. This (from the Grace Millane case) is what a clean-up looks like:



No such clean-up was found in the apartment. Notice the swirls from the clean-up above.

The footprints found in the hallway would then not have been cleaned up, but traces of someone walking through a clean-up. But that leaves two problems. 1. Said clean-up didn't exist and 2. The footprints in the hallway were tested and whatever made them, it wasn't blood. Luminol reacts to multiple substances, not just blood, which is why you always test it further. In this case, the tests - ALL tests - came back negative.

The only thing that exculpates them for me is that Rudy seemed to have no idea who they were, when he gave his testimony. Even when he changed it, he did not really provide good descriptions of them. I think if the two were involved, Rudy would have sold them out in a second.

So to me it seems like, Rudy killed Meredith, but Amanda and her boyfriend also had a role in it, separate from Rudy. Because the two did not seem to come across each other too much. Or Rudy would have had a better description.

So how would that work? Maybe they found Meredith almost dead. And then they stabbed her again for the final blow?

Why would they do that?

Because they didn't want Meredith to testify against them she lived?

But at that point they had done nothing, so what would she testify to?

I'm not sure, but maybe something along those lines.

Or maybe there were some sex games. Like the Italian prosecutor said. Maybe they drugged Meredith. And they had a sex game with her. They left. And Rudy heard about it before, because more people were supposed to be there, and got in after they left and killed Meredith. I don't know, I'm just brainstorming here.

The prosecutor was obsessed with sex games and ritual murder. Just as he received word of Meredith's murder he had been charged with abuse of office for a case where he tapped the phones of numerous officials he thought were part of a Satanic-Masonic conspiracy to create a serial killer to sexually mutilate and murder women and use their body parts for rituals - and when reporters criticized his investigation, he began investigating them, even imprisoning one of them using similar dirty tricks that he later used against Amanda to ensure she didn't get to talk to her lawyer for more than a few minutes before going before the judge.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I saw a picture of the bloody white bath mat with the bloody footprint on it. It was a pretty big bloody footprint. Amanda didn't maybe figure something was wrong after she saw that?

I find it incredibly hard to believe that Amanda mopped up a bunch of blood in the bathroom, and decided, hey I think I'll take this bloody mop over to my boyfriend's house. Carrying a bloody mop across town seems kind of weird too. And when they tested it later, there was no blood on it. So they must have used a lot of bleach to get the blood off. I don't think just casually using some bleach would necessarily get all the blood off the mop. They must have taken more efforts than that. Why did they bleach the mop? And how often do you use bleach on a floor? I mean you could discolor a lot of stuff around there. It was very strange.

The only thing that exculpates them for me is that Rudy seemed to have no idea who they were, when he gave his testimony. Even when he changed it, he did not really provide good descriptions of them. I think if the two were involved, Rudy would have sold them out in a second.

So to me it seems like, Rudy killed Meredith, but Amanda and her boyfriend also had a role in it, separate from Rudy. Because the two did not seem to come across each other too much. Or Rudy would have had a better description.

So how would that work? Maybe they found Meredith almost dead. And then they stabbed her again for the final blow? Because they didn't want Meredith to testify against them she lived? I'm not sure, but maybe something along those lines.

Or maybe there were some sex games. Like the Italian prosecutor said. Maybe they drugged Meredith. And they had a sex game with her. They left. And Rudy heard about it before, because more people were supposed to be there, and got in after they left and killed Meredith. I don't know, I'm just brainstorming here.

I agree with your thoughts but maybe it's more simple - perhaps they found M dead but for some reason could immediately act on it / declare that, so they set about a cover up and staging of when they found her? Perhaps because of something as simple as being in possession of drugs or some such. JMO There was a time when being in possession of drugs, even soft ones, would have you removed from your job / course of study and criminalised and booted out of the country.

 

[SMK777]

That was just Mignini's idiotic reasoning. They had already decided she was guilty at that point, so a perfectly normal reaction from a traumatized woman becomes this bizarre relived memory.



Except the problem is that the prints on the hallway revealed by luminol weren't made in blood. Luminol reacts to more than blood which is why you have to do follow-up test. And when they did, those tests were negative for blood. All of them.

This is also evidenced by the lack of streaks and other marks through the footprints. If they had been bloody and then deliberately cleaned up, the luminol would have revealed that. Fact is except Rudy's bloody shoeprints (which were visible of faint) there was no blood on the hallway, cleaned up or otherwise.

The prosecution attempted to hide these negative tests, and the defense didn't find out about them until the first trial was almost done.

But there was blood in the corridor, from Guede. If it was so faint that no one could see it on November 2, including the postal police officers, it had been wiped up. Guede said there was a lot.

I'm having a very hard time believing that every last finding from the initial investigation was false. If these investigators were all such liars, they could have said they found blood on the mop, but they didn't. They were truthful.

I've read on legal sites that are pro-Knox that the evidence used to convict her and Sollecito was unreliable. It was questioned. That's much different from false, and still leaves room for debate.

And sites that were not pro Knox including the Kercher attorney Maresca and the TJMK insist that the original evidence has never been conclusively refuted. That goes for the blood and DNA and also holds for the idea of multiple attackers. There were very few defensive wounds on the victim and it does seem to indicate that she was fully restrained. I've read the autopsy reports.