Amanda Knox Discussion-Friendly Thread

But there was blood in the corridor, from Guede. If it was so faint that no one could see it on November 2, including the postal police officers, it had been wiped up. Guede said there was a lot.

It hadn't been wiped up, but there was never much of it to begin with - so little it wasn't noticed by anyone. But as you can see in these images (p 73-76) they weren't cleaned up at all.

HW1.png

I'm having a very hard time believing that every last finding from the initial investigation was false. If these investigators were all such liars, they could have said they found blood on the mop, but they didn't. They were truthful.

It's a matter of what they could get away with. With the footprints they had positive hits with luminol, so they could just hide the negative TMB results and hope they could get away with it (and with prosecution-friendly judges at the pre-trial and first instance trial they could), but if they didn't have positive test results from any test on the mop that wouldn't fly in court. They could dance around omitting results, but they couldn't get away with falsifying.

I've read about a lot of Italian cases, and many of them (some including the same people as this case) were even worse than this. It isn't really corruption, but since they're so convinced they're right, they'll bend the rules thinking the ends justify the means. In fact, one effect of this case was that thanks to the international attention on it, a lot of the dirty tricks that were the norm in some areas of the Italian legal system became exposed most awkwardly.
 
50 hours of police interrogation combined with sleep deprivation will cause a lot of people to say or write things they shouldn't.
I would agree and add that much of the alleged “lying” was suggested by police under duress, including when she dragged Lumumba into the mess. Police had already decided an “African” man was involved and misinterpreted her texts to her boss, so they led her into implicating him, which allowed her slander case to stand to this day. This tactic of leading the suspect happens in many false confessions.
 
It was also made in very diluted blood and was faint to the eye. Look at pictures 18 and 19 here.

View attachment 553538View attachment 553539



The answer is simple: they didn't mop up blood in the bathroom. There's no evidence anyone did. First of all, why would they want to clean up the bathroom? They were the ones who called the police, at 12:51. If there had been more blood in the bathroom the only difference would be that they'd likely call the police an hour or two earlier, and what purpose would that delay serve?

Second, no evidence of a clean-up was found in the bathroom. The whole point of luminol and the like is that they detect blood that has been cleaned up. This (from the Grace Millane case) is what a clean-up looks like:

View attachment 553540

No such clean-up was found in the apartment. Notice the swirls from the clean-up above.

The footprints found in the hallway would then not have been cleaned up, but traces of someone walking through a clean-up. But that leaves two problems. 1. Said clean-up didn't exist and 2. The footprints in the hallway were tested and whatever made them, it wasn't blood. Luminol reacts to multiple substances, not just blood, which is why you always test it further. In this case, the tests - ALL tests - came back negative.



Why would they do that?



But at that point they had done nothing, so what would she testify to?



The prosecutor was obsessed with sex games and ritual murder. Just as he received word of Meredith's murder he had been charged with abuse of office for a case where he tapped the phones of numerous officials he thought were part of a Satanic-Masonic conspiracy to create a serial killer to sexually mutilate and murder women and use their body parts for rituals - and when reporters criticized his investigation, he began investigating them, even imprisoning one of them using similar dirty tricks that he later used against Amanda to ensure she didn't get to talk to her lawyer for more than a few minutes before going before the judge.
Okay I saw a different picture of a white bath mat online with a lot of blood on it. So I probably saw a fake picture. Which goes to show, you can't believe everything you read or see online lol.
 
The Massei court asserted so many pieces of narrative and had a whole slew of evidentiary data as well, and these are asserted by pro justice scholars to be left untouched by the Hellman and High Court acquittals.

The pro Knox sites, contrawise, proclaim the opposite: That the initial investigation was nothing but errors and projection, and has been utterly negated by the final ruling.

Criticism of Mignin and Massei -- and of Hellman -- continue to this day. There's no way objectively to reach a final conclusion because professionals and experts speak from both sides.
 
Guede was seen after the murder covered in blood. After changing, he partied all night, then fled to Germany. He had a deep knife cut on the palm of his hand, consistent with his hand sliding down the knife blade as it was saturated with blood.

He was most likely in the apartment for robbery, but then Meredith returned home and worst case scenario happened.

It seems like a case-closed situation today, or is there something else?

"Guede, 34, was the only person jailed over the notorious sexual assault and murder in Perugia, in central Italy.

Meredith Kercher's American flatmate Amanda Knox and her Italian boyfriend were also initially convicted. Their case ran through the courts for years before they were eventually acquitted on appeal.

Guede's initial 30-year jail term was cut to 16 years and he has spent the past year doing community service ... he was subsequently convicted of the murder after his bloodstained fingerprints were identified at the scene."

November 2021
 
Guede was seen after the murder covered in blood. After changing, he partied all night, then fled to Germany. He had a deep knife cut on the palm of his hand, consistent with his hand sliding down the knife blade as it was saturated with blood.

He was most likely in the apartment for robbery, but then Meredith returned home and worst case scenario happened.

It seems like a case-closed situation today, or is there something else?

"Guede, 34, was the only person jailed over the notorious sexual assault and murder in Perugia, in central Italy.

Meredith Kercher's American flatmate Amanda Knox and her Italian boyfriend were also initially convicted. Their case ran through the courts for years before they were eventually acquitted on appeal.

Guede's initial 30-year jail term was cut to 16 years and he has spent the past year doing community service ... he was subsequently convicted of the murder after his bloodstained fingerprints were identified at the scene."

November 2021
Otto, I remember back when you were solidly in the camp believing in the guilt of Knox and Sollecito.

If this really was Guede the lone wolf burglar who opportunistically raped, which escalated to murder, then a lot of us wasted years arguing otherwise.
 
Otto, I remember back when you were solidly in the camp believing in the guilt of Knox and Sollecito.

If this really was Guede the lone wolf burglar who opportunistically raped, which escalated to murder, then a lot of us wasted years arguing otherwise.
I wavered every time the courts changed their minds. I initially believed the prosecution, but the verdict changed 4 times over the years. That's enough to conclude that there is insufficient evidence to be certain of guilt. Regardless of facts, after 4 trials, it's too messy to proceed.

As for wasting time, I don't think so. We all learned a great deal about the criminal justice system in Italy ... and what an emotionally charged environment that is! If there's ever another similar murder, we know what to expect.

I do think that Patrick Lumumba should be compensated after he was falsely implicated. That was low, and it permanently disrupted his life. It's a loose end that should be cleaned up to preserve good will.
 
It's one thing to be falsely accused of a crime, and I understand how devastating that is, but lashing out and falsely accusing others is not the best course of action. One life is ruined, so other lives should be ruined too? Not if one maintains their dignity - even though can be difficult at the time.

Enough time has passed that false accusations should be withdrawn, and peace made with the past. That's the only way for everyone, including Patrick Lumumba and his accuser, to put it behind them.

"A Florence court has upheld a slander conviction against Amanda Knox for wrongly accusing a bar owner of murdering the British student Meredith Kercher."

June 2024
 
I wavered every time the courts changed their minds. I initially believed the prosecution, but the verdict changed 4 times over the years. That's enough to conclude that there is insufficient evidence to be certain of guilt. Regardless of facts, after 4 trials, it's too messy to proceed.

As for wasting time, I don't think so. We all learned a great deal about the criminal justice system in Italy ... and what an emotionally charged environment that is! If there's ever another similar murder, we know what to expect.

I do think that Patrick Lumumba should be compensated after he was falsely implicated. That was low, and it permanently disrupted his life. It's a loose end that should be cleaned up to preserve good will.
So without the evidence, or without it being sufficient, you have been convinced more or less that Guede acted alone? Was the talk of few defensive wounds on the victim and unambiguous signs of her being fully restrained by persons other than Guede totally erroneous?

I agree Lumumba should be compensated. What happened to him was awful.
 
It's one thing to be falsely accused of a crime, and I understand how devastating that is, but lashing out and falsely accusing others is not the best course of action. One life is ruined, so other lives should be ruined too? Not if one maintains their dignity - even though can be difficult at the time.

Enough time has passed that false accusations should be withdrawn, and peace made with the past. That's the only way for everyone, including Patrick Lumumba and his accuser, to put it behind them.

"A Florence court has upheld a slander conviction against Amanda Knox for wrongly accusing a bar owner of murdering the British student Meredith Kercher."

June 2024
Agreed. But Knox blames the police alone for the Lumumba accusation.
 
Agreed. But Knox blames the police alone for the Lumumba accusation.
I understand, but police did not introduce Lumumba's name to the conversation. Furthermore, that question was recently re-litigated and ruled in favour of Lumumba.
 
So without the evidence, or without it being sufficient, you have been convinced more or less that Guede acted alone? Was the talk of few defensive wounds on the victim and unambiguous signs of her being fully restrained by persons other than Guede totally erroneous?

I agree Lumumba should be compensated. What happened to him was awful.
We know that Guede is guilty. I don't recall evidence that Meredith Kercher was restrained. LIke I said, It seems like a case-closed situation today, or is there something else?
 
We know that Guede is guilty. I don't recall evidence that Meredith Kercher was restrained. LIke I said, It seems like a case-closed situation today, or is there something else?
Much was made in the Masei report that Meredith had almost no defensive wounds; highly irregular for an attack at knife point. This suggested to the court that Kercher had been strangely immobile during the attack, with her neck passively exposed.

In addition, there was extensive bruising on her arms, as if someone had rougjhly pulled them from behind, while at the same instance holding a knife to her throat, on both the left and right side. To the convicting court, this sent a clear and unambiguous signal that Guede simply could not have been a lone attacker. The imprint of smaller female-sized finger tips was noted as well.

In addition, Kercher had marked bruising around the nose and especially on the gums and lips; and also bites on her tongue. The court viewed these as indications that hands were covering her mouth roughly while also holding her at knifepoint: Again a signal of multiple attackers.

I cannot dismiss all of that material as the Hellman court apparently did. The accusations that the American PR machine influenced Hellman were duly noted. This was his first criminal ruling and unlike the civil cases he was familiar with.

SOURCES:
The head and neck injuries were the most significant and included small spots
inside the eyelids indicative of asphyxiation, a bruise to the cheek possibly caused by a knife point, bruising on the nostrils and trauma to the lips suggestive of silencing or suffocation efforts, biting injuries to the tongue, bruising and abrasions on the lower jaw indicative of a hard compression by hand, and neck swelling and haemorrhaging with pools of blood left inside the lungs as a result of two significant knife wounds.


11-01 Meredith Kercher sustained 43 wounds during the assault that killed her. (Perna closing arguments 2009)

1-02 She had 10 knife wounds and 33 other wounds. (Lalli 2009)

1-03 She had at least 15 bruises: on her mouth, nose, cheeks, jaw, neck, elbows, right forearm, small of her back, left thigh, and right lower leg. The bruises indicate she was not only restrained, but also kept from screaming for help. (Lalli 2009)

1-04 Some of the bruising on Ms. Kercher was in the shape of fingertips, with some fingertips being smaller, of a woman’s size. There were no ligature marks. (Lalli, Marchionni, Codispoti 2009)

1-05 Some of the neck bruises indicate Ms. Kercher was being choked at some point during the assault. (Liviero 2009)

1-06 The internal vaginal bruising suffered by Ms. Kercher happened before her death and was violent. (Lalli, Marchionni 2009)

1-07 She had only 2 major knife wounds, one on each side of her neck. The remaining knife wounds were minor. (Lalli 2009)

1-08 The wound on the right side of her neck was narrow and deep. The wound on the left side of her neck was wide, large, gaping and fatal. These two wounds were likely made with two different knives. (Bacci, Politi, Codispoti, Mignini 2009)

1-09 She had another knife cut just below the gaping wound on the left side of her neck. (Lalli 2009)

1-10 She had 3 other glancing knife wounds on her neck and cheeks. (Lalli 2009)

1-11 She had 3 small cuts on her right hand and one small cut on her left hand. (Lalli 2009)

1-12 Her defensive wounds were virtually non-existent, especially when compared with other single-attacker knife attacks, where knife wounds on the hands and arms are prevalent. (Cingolani, Codispoti 2009)

1-13 The wounds were compatible with an assault by multiple persons (Cingolani, Codispoti, Lalli, Liviero 2009).

1-14 Bacci, Lalli and Liviero testified that the wounds could not be ascribed with 100% certainty to a single person or multiple person assault. However Lalli and Liviero preferred the multiple person assault scenario, given the quantity and different types of wounds. (Bacci, Lalli, Liviero 2009)

1-15 Lalli confirmed under questioning by Judge Massei that if the rape happened during the assault, then the assault had to be carried out by more than one person. (Lalli 2009)
 
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I feel pretty confident to say that Amanda bringing a bloody mop across town, over to her boyfriend's the morning afterwards, is pretty clear indication of guilt, in some way. I mean, yes it could be a coincidence, I guess, but I think that's a very small chance. I'm going with 95% chance, she and her boyfriend are involved. How they're involved, I'm not sure exactly.

So the story is, the pipe under the sink broke the night before at the boyfriend's apartment, and then Amanda brought a mop over the next morning from her apartment, after btw she wiped up a bunch of blood in her bathroom, to clean his kitchen up. So they just let the water sit on the floor all night at the boyfriend's apartment? They didn't have any paper towels or dish towels there? How about just getting some old t-shirts to wipe it up? And second of all, was that Amanda's mop, or was that like the house mop? Does she have the right to take away the house cleaning supplies? Didn't Rafael have something to clean it up with? And if not, could he not buy his own mop, for his own apartment? Or couldn't Amanda by a mop from him on the way over? She apparently bought some other cleaning supplies, or was in a store looking at buying some, so she could have bought a mop at that point.

For a normal person, if the pipes under the sink break and leak, first you turn it off so no more water is leaking. And then you wipe it up with whatever you have. And then you buy a new mop, when you go out. Because you don't want to take away the mop from the other apartment.

And the fact that these odd events just happened to occur, on the very day that Meredith was murdered? I don't know, that's too much of a coincidence for me.

I do believe it's possible she and the boyfriend were involved. But I do not believe they were involved with Rudy. So it's possible Rudy came afterwards.
 
I feel pretty confident to say that Amanda bringing a bloody mop across town, over to her boyfriend's the morning afterwards, is pretty clear indication of guilt, in some way. I mean, yes it could be a coincidence, I guess, but I think that's a very small chance. I'm going with 95% chance, she and her boyfriend are involved. How they're involved, I'm not sure exactly.

So the story is, the pipe under the sink broke the night before at the boyfriend's apartment, and then Amanda brought a mop over the next morning from her apartment, after btw she wiped up a bunch of blood in her bathroom, to clean his kitchen up. So they just let the water sit on the floor all night at the boyfriend's apartment? They didn't have any paper towels or dish towels there? How about just getting some old t-shirts to wipe it up? And second of all, was that Amanda's mop, or was that like the house mop? Does she have the right to take away the house cleaning supplies? Didn't Rafael have something to clean it up with? And if not, could he not buy his own mop, for his own apartment? Or couldn't Amanda by a mop from him on the way over? She apparently bought some other cleaning supplies, or was in a store looking at buying some, so she could have bought a mop at that point.

For a normal person, if the pipes under the sink break and leak, first you turn it off so no more water is leaking. And then you wipe it up with whatever you have. And then you buy a new mop, when you go out. Because you don't want to take away the mop from the other apartment.

And the fact that these odd events just happened to occur, on the very day that Meredith was murdered? I don't know, that's too much of a coincidence for me.

I do believe it's possible she and the boyfriend were involved. But I do not believe they were involved with Rudy. So it's possible Rudy came afterwards.
The mop tested negative for blood but Raffaele's apartment smelled strongly of bleach.

The Masei court believed that all 3 defendants were there at the same time. The Nencini court believed an argument may have escalated.
 
The mop tested negative for blood but Raffaele's apartment smelled strongly of bleach.

The Masei court believed that all 3 defendants were there at the same time. The Nencini court believed an argument may have escalated.
I do not believe Rudy saw Amanda and her boyfriend at the apartment because the stories he gave lacked any convincing detail about them.

I was just reading up on it apparently Amanda met both Rudy and Patrick just a few weeks before the murder. She met Rudy through the neighbors downstairs.

So I'm trying to think to think of possible Here's one. Perhaps the group had spoken about drugging and abusing Meredith before. Maybe because she was getting on their nerves, threatening to tell police about their drug use. Maybe Patrick came over to their house before his work to sell them drugs. They also planned to confront Meredith that night. Meredith complained. So they slipped something in Meredith's drink. And all three assaulted her while she was half unconscious. They left Meredith in her bed, and then they left. Rudy had also heard there was going to be something exciting going on that night, and he also wanted to participate. So maybe he showed up later. He knocked on the door but nobody answered. He went to visit the downstairs neighbors, but they also weren't there. So he climbed in upstairs to figure it out. Maybe he really had to go to the bathroom too. So he went inside and went to the bathroom. And then Meredith woke up and saw him, and then he assaulted Meredith.

Here's another scenario. Rudy had already broken in and was in Meredith's room. Maybe Amanda and her boyfriend were around the basketball court getting drugs. Then Amanda and her boyfriend came back in to the apartment after. They heard some noises from Meredith's room, the door was closed or mostly closed. It sounded pretty scary. But they did nothing to stop it. And instead they just left. They had some drugs in the apartment and they were afraid police would find the drugs. Plus they were high and they would get caught for being high. So they left. And then came back the next day to check it out and did their plan.
 
I do not believe Rudy saw Amanda and her boyfriend at the apartment because the stories he gave lacked any convincing detail about them.

I was just reading up on it apparently Amanda met both Rudy and Patrick just a few weeks before the murder. She met Rudy through the neighbors downstairs.

So I'm trying to think to think of possible Here's one. Perhaps the group had spoken about drugging and abusing Meredith before. Maybe because she was getting on their nerves, threatening to tell police about their drug use. Maybe Patrick came over to their house before his work to sell them drugs. They also planned to confront Meredith that night. Meredith complained. So they slipped something in Meredith's drink. And all three assaulted her while she was half unconscious. They left Meredith in her bed, and then they left. Rudy had also heard there was going to be something exciting going on that night, and he also wanted to participate. So maybe he showed up later. He knocked on the door but nobody answered. He went to visit the downstairs neighbors, but they also weren't there. So he climbed in upstairs to figure it out. Maybe he really had to go to the bathroom too. So he went inside and went to the bathroom. And then Meredith woke up and saw him, and then he assaulted Meredith.

Here's another scenario. Rudy had already broken in and was in Meredith's room. Maybe Amanda and her boyfriend were around the basketball court getting drugs. Then Amanda and her boyfriend came back in to the apartment after. They heard some noises from Meredith's room, the door was closed or mostly closed. It sounded pretty scary. But they did nothing to stop it. And instead they just left. They had some drugs in the apartment and they were afraid police would find the drugs. Plus they were high and they would get caught for being high. So they left. And then came back the next day to check it out and did their plan.
There is no evidence of any of this. It’s one thing to have a theory based on evidence, but you are spitballing lots of ideas without evidence.
 
There is no evidence of any of this. It’s one thing to have a theory based on evidence, but you are spitballing lots of ideas without evidence.
Well I'm trying to come up with a scenario where Rudy was involved in the attack, but Amanda and her boyfriend was also involved somehow.

Because of course Rudy has his DNA all over the place. However both Amanda and her boyfriend acted very weird, of course the false confession which I think goes beyond a normal false confession. And also the fact that she happened to take the bloody mop over to her boyfriend's on that day of all days. That is not normal behavior.

So yeah, I'm trying to come up with scenarios that involve both elements. I mean it's a pretty finite set of scenarios, there's only probably only a few possibilities that would work. So I think it's worth it to consider them.
 

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