Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#11

[aa9511]

Sure. In my opinion the theory of clean up and staging becomes nonsensical when we actually try to flesh it out beyond bare assertions. Discussing the actual evidence from the guilt point of view is a minefield, I don't think it's anyone's fault here. If anything it's the prosecution's fault that they went forward with such garbage of a case.

Sticking to psychologizing is always a safe option. We can go forever about alleged psychopatology and repressed sexuality. I will analyze Mignini's and the Perugian "flying squad's" :seeya:

bbm

Oh trust me, if Juan Martinez were prosecuting this case, there would be nothing confusing about the way it unfolded. He would have gone through every detail and put it all together in the way he presented it to the jury.

Perhaps the problem here is not with the evidence, perhaps it's with the way the prosecutor presented it. Maybe another prosecutor (like Juan), could have presented it in a clearer way. Sometimes, it is all about the presentation, like I believe it was you who said earlier.

 

[SMK]

You're right. This is all speculation.

There is no evidence that they had an earlier altercation.

There is no real evidence (although there is a strong gestalt) of Amanda and Raffaelle having seething, repressed tendencies, a powder keg waiting for the spark.

It is likely that Meredith would have told the British girls that she had had such an altercation (unless it seemed subtle enough, and she felt the gathering was not the place to bring in such talk).

Follain's text said that the last phone call Stephanie Kercher got from Meredith, before she died, it was said, "Oh, I had a row with my American flat mate" but they then spoke of other things, and Stephanie never got a chance to ask what was the cause of the row.

bbm

Really? wow.

Yes, I was just reading that on Google books the other day, and it struck me.

 

[Amber29]

I still wonder how they technically managed to clean the spots where Raffaele made very bloody footprints going to the bathroom from the murder room without disturbing the half a dozen or so visible Guede's prints in that small area. What did they use to clean up in such a way? I know it makes sense to you and you figured it out but why don't you share it?

The other thing is the bathroom clean up. How did they manage to clean the very bloody fixtures in a way that made it very genuinely look like only small droplets fell here and there? And what about the drop of Amanda's blood? Did she really not realize she had been bleeding from her neck?

I think it takes very few prints to get to the bathroom, i do not think he walked all over and spot cleaning would not be difficult IMO. I do not know what kind of cleaner they used and I don't need to. You keep saying avoiding RGs prints and I've said I think some of his prints are missing.

I don't think it looks like blood drops here and there. I've said many times I think the blood in the bidet is mixed with water and was pooled near the drain and the last little bit dried that way. Otherwise I think they were very tired, its not perfect and the little they didn't get goes with the "someone" was in there. She clearly knew she had bled IMO as she made a point to justify if some of the blood may have been hers. She speculated about her ears, she "scratched" at the drop in the sink, and she speculated any other blood was Meredith having menstrual problems. I don't necessarily think it was left on purpose, she made sure to cover bases of what could've been uncovered. IMO

I simply do not belief the shower, the bathmat boogie, or the whole discovery of the poo.

 

[aa9511]

I wonder if anyone would chime in with some explanation. Amber, aa?

I thought it was something to do with one of the shutters stayed partially closed, and so the glass there fell in a sheet because the shutter was blocking it? I think, not sure.

The reason it was not disturbed would be that no one actually came in through the window.

 

[aa9511]

That photo is too close in, but in another photo of the windowsill, one side (left to right) had glass shards and the other side did not - about half the width of the sill.

I don't know about that, I mean I now what you mean about the picture, but IMO the windowsill is not that big to allow for Rudy to climb up without disturbing any of that. He would have had to put his hands there, possibly his foot, I don't know, depending on what is in someone's imagination of how he climbed up there.

 

[whoanellie]

You're right. This is all speculation.

There is no evidence that they had an earlier altercation.

There is no real evidence (although there is a strong gestalt) of Amanda and Raffaelle having seething, repressed tendencies, a powder keg waiting for the spark.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

It is likely that Meredith would have told the British girls that she had had such an altercation (unless it seemed subtle enough, and she felt the gathering was not the place to bring in such talk).

Follain's text said that the last phone call Stephanie Kercher got from Meredith, before she died, it was said, "Oh, I had a row with my American flat mate" but they then spoke of other things, and Stephanie never got a chance to ask what was the cause of the row.

As I understand it there is evidence that Meredith was not happy with some of Amanda's habits. On the one hand, to me this has always seemed like typical college room mate stuff. On the other hand, if Amanda had been murdered and Meredith was a suspect this evidence might have some significance. You could, I suppose, argue that Meredith was "seething" at Amanda.

As far as I know there is no evidence that Amanda ever said a cross word to or about Meredith. If I am wrong please correct me. No evidence or gestaltof a powder keg.

 

[aa9511]

FWIW, from groundreport.com site:
"She slept in and awoke to find Amanda and her boyfriend, Raffaele, making lunch, they invited her to join them but she declined and went to take a shower. Afterward they chatted while she put in a load of laundry, then she drew a fake tattoo on Amanda’s arm and, late in the afternoon, left for a dinner party at the apartment of Robin Butterworth and Amy Frost.

That was the last time Amanda and Raffaele saw Meredith alive."

First I've heard about the fake tattoo, but it sounds friendly enough between them.

Yes, well seeing that one side of that story is dead, all we have is the one side's story, don't we?

 

[Katody]

bbm

Oh trust me, if Juan Martinez were prosecuting this case, there would be nothing confusing about the way it unfolded. He would have gone through every detail and put it all together in the way he presented it to the jury.

Perhaps the problem here is not with the evidence, perhaps it's with the way the prosecutor presented it. Maybe another prosecutor (like Juan), could have presented it in a clearer way. Sometimes, it is all about the presentation, like I believe it was you who said earlier.

How many prosecutors were there already? We're like on third or fourth crime theory already. It was a ritual sacrifice, it was a sex game, a choice of evil without reason, now it's a fight to death over unflushed excrement :facepalm:

 

[Katody]

I thought it was something to do with one of the shutters stayed partially closed, and so the glass there fell in a sheet because the shutter was blocking it? I think, not sure.

The reason it was not disturbed would be that no one actually came in through the window.

SMK is right that it doesn't make sense in the staging scenario. The glass was broken from the outside. The shutter had to be open to do this.

 

[SMK]

I have no idea what you are talking about.
[. . .]





As far as I know there is no evidence that Amanda ever said a cross word to or about Meredith. If I am wrong please correct me. No evidence or gestaltof a powder keg.

I feel like I am going crazy I said explicitly, that there is NO EVIDENCE of a powder keg, of repressed psychosis, etc. - that it is all speculation and conjecture. I admitted this fully. You act as though I said there is plenty of evidence. A gestalt is just that: something perceived and thus subjective.

 

[aa9511]

I would agree that it is more probable that in a city like Perugia, known for its drug problems (most thieving being done for the purpose of getting drug money), that a break-and-entry-turned rape/murder occurred.

It is true that it is unlikely that an unusual situation which occurred in the New York City area in the early 1980s would suddenly ressurrect itself in 21st century Perugia.

However, the elements of the psyche which make a shy, studious, bespeckled boy who has some problems and uses drug, become seduced a bit by the dark side - these are universal and belong to all cultures and all times. Rudy himself was not without his charms. Raffaelle himself in Honor Bound describes his protracted grief over his mother, his unrequited love of Amanda (his friends thought he was cuckold) - in the 20s, these things can indeed be a powder keg, just waiting for some drugs, alcholol, and a desire to "break the boundaries" to ignite it.

Just look at the younger Boston bomber, not the older one who I believe some people were aware he had issues, but the younger one....all of his friends, classmates, everyone thought he was just a "normal guy." How they were wrong.

 

[SMK]

SMK is right that it doesn't make sense in the staging scenario. The glass was broken from the outside. The shutter had to be open to do this.

I think Batistelli was tidying up ......

 

[Katody]

If you read through my various posts on this, you would see that I said only the family probably knows about any issue. Because most of the time, people do not show their issues to classmates, to co-workers, to even close friends. And perhaps, there are some things which are so deeply hidden/veiled that people don't even realize it when they see it. Such as, lying to get out of things. There are people who are very good at doing that, such that the people they are doing it to, do not realize they're being lied to, or manipulated, if you will. A small example would be, I went to a bar even though I'm underage, because I was so vulnerable and the people I was with pressured me to go so much, I just didn't realize I was so weak. I'm sorry. They just kept telling me and telling me to go, even though I didn't want to, I really didn't. I just wanted to stay in and read my book. But they kept saying over and over, and would just not leave me alone. .........................................that would be the story told to Mom or Dad, when the reality is...................................................

you just wanted to get into a bar and drink.

So the fact that "not a single person" came out and said anything is no "evidence" to me.

The fact that her family sings her glowing praises is no "evidence" to me, seeing as they would not want negative things to come out about her. Seeing the bias inherent in being a family member.

I think in many cases there are signs recognizable post factum. I understand we need to assume there are none here. You may think the prosecution is unlucky again.
I think it's because Amanda is a genuinely good person and the people close to her know it. For example father Saulo Scarabattoli who observed her closely for four years in prison and got to know her well strongly believes in her innocence.

 

[aa9511]

I can't believe you missed the TV demonstration that was posted here like dozen times:

http://youtu.be/8JL6nIkaYLs?t=1m23s

See how easy it is? Easy for everyone, not just experienced climber. The expert says so.


You do have some explanation from the staging point of view?

:banghead:

I thought we already went over this, that I don't think it is as "easy" as it's made out to look to be in the video. One only needs some commonsense to think about it, not some video of a guy who is not even Rudy or physically resembling his shape in any way.

I know very few people who would, upon actually thinking about it, claim that it's easy to climb to a second-story window up a vertical wall.

 

[quesarita]

"Just look at the younger Boston bomber, not the older one who I believe some people were aware he had issues, but the younger one....all of his friends, classmates, everyone thought he was just a "normal guy." How they were wrong."

He however, had a lot of help going down that road, and the anger/tendencies/pathologies of his brother and mother were reported by many who knew the family. His involvement did not come out of nowhere.

 

[Amber29]

How many prosecutors were there already? We're like on third or fourth crime theory already. It was a ritual sacrifice, it was a sex game, a choice of evil without reason, now it's a fight to death over unflushed excrement :facepalm:

Why do you suppose so many prosecutors were willing to attach their name to this case?

Surely Galati had the option of not pursuing it past Hellmann. If its the railroad job, witch hunt it's been portrayed as why would 4 prosecutors accept pursue it. The witchhunt argument would hold weight if we were discussing 1 corrupt prosecutor that won't drop it but that's not the case. We have 4 prosecutors and numerous Italian judges that have agreed with the prosecutors.

 

[Katody]

Yes, I was just reading that on Google books the other day, and it struck me.

I think reading Follain one needs to remain critical. This guy lies and makes stuff up easily.

What struck me is that if we were to believe this, Stephanie inexplicably forgot to testify about it. Also the British girls who knew everything about Amanda from Meredith's stories, including the vibrator and who she slept with and when strangely don't mention this at all.

 

[aa9511]

There is like 10cm width of ledge free from glass. Just saying.

?? No, that is not enough room to put hands there or feet to try to pull oneself up.
:banghead:
How does the innocent-side actually think he actually came through the window?
If he had both hands on the windowill, he would have needed to pull up his bodyweight, then either swing forward one leg onto the windowill, or,
with his two hands there, pull himself up to chest-area, then lunge his body forward through the window.

In neither of those, or any other scenario I think of, would the glass on the windowill not be disturbed.

 

[Katody]

Why do you suppose so many prosecutors were willing to attach their name to this case?

Crini doesn't seem very willing. The self protecting Perugian circle and Mignini's supporters in SC is another story.

 

[aa9511]

Yes, I was just reading that on Google books the other day, and it struck me.

Yes, that is striking information. Did he get this information from an interview with her sister, or does he say how he got it?