Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#12

[redheadedgal]

This image of "Saint Meredith" some people have baffles me. I see it on the other forums all the time. She was a normal girl who partied hard in the pubs, had sex and smoked pot like a lot of college kids. She was picked up for druken disorderly in the UK. No big deal. She did one year of karate lessons when she was 16.

I'm not sure she was an Erasmus student either because an old article has direct quotes from the director of the program in Perugia saying she wasn't.

thank you. the saint vs. sinner, angel vs. devil, virgin vs. wh***, serious student vs. partier, clean vs. druggie characterization gets old.

i read she wasn't an erasmus student somewhere too...

 

[Tugela]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are the nose and lips, the scalp, and the areas under the ears (bruising, swelling). Not a blow to the head as occurs in blunt force trauma.

There was a hard blow to the nose and lips, in other words she was punched in the face repeatedly. That would be the blunt force trauma. That would have stunned and incapacitated her and would account for the lack of defensive wounds when stabbed.

So there would have been a struggle, presumably during the attempted rape. Then RG would have punched her to incapacitate her, and, enraged, stabbed her. Maybe she got a knee in and hurt him, and that got him really mad.

Reading those reports they appear to assume that all the injuries happened at the same time, but they probably happened sequentially, so there is no need to invoke a multiple attacker theory to explain them.

 

[MichaelSmith]

I'm interested in peoples thoughts on this.

Rita Ficarra said she arrived at 11pm on the 5th and asked Amanda to tell her about people who had been to the cottage. Amanda told her about several people and one was a South African coloured guy who played basketball at Piazza Grimana. The guy had been to the downstairs apartment but she didn't know his name or number.

In a guilt scenario why is she saying this? Is she being diabolical Amanda taunting the cops? Why not give his name? She's suppose to have cleaned and staged it looking like his MO. Why didn't she know his name? She's suppose to have committed a murder sex orgy with him just days earlier.


http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-conten...i-Ficarra-Bigini-Zugarini-Finzi-Gubbiotti.pdf

pages 67-68

DOMANDA – Riferisca tutto quello che ha riportato nell’annotazione.
RISPOSTA – Sì, questo l’ho già detto, praticamente… L’annotazione è del 6 novembre alle ore 20.00, l’ho fatta alla sera perché poi non avendo dormito due giorni, la mattina quando ho finito sono andata a letto. Mattina e pomeriggio. La prima parte l’ho già riferita e mi dà indicazione di questi ragazzi, di non italiani, di un certo PJ Peter Svizzero, che sarebbe stato più volte nella loro abitazione e che abitava vicino alla zona di Via della Pergola 7. Patrick del proprietario del locale
Le Chique dove la stessa lavorava, l’ho già detto, mi fornisce le utenze cellulari. Poi mi parla di un certo Ardak cittadino nord africano e mi dà l’utenza cellulare. Un certo Juve cittadino algerino, che lavorasaltuariamente presso il locale Le Chique e che abiterebbe nei pressi dell’abitazione di un’altra amica della vittima, di Sofie, anche di questo mi fornisce l’utenza cellulare. Poi di Spiros, un ragazzo di nazionalità greca di cui mi fornisce solo l’utenza cellulare. Di Shaki, un cittadino marocchino che lavora in una pizzeria, frequenta i pub frequentati da tutte le ragazze del gruppo della vittima e sempre amico anche di Sofie, ed inoltre riferisce di un ragazzo sud africano di colore, basso, che gioca a basket nel campo di Piazza Grimana, il quale in un’occasione avrebbe frequentato la casa dei ragazzi che abitavano sotto l’appartamento.
DOMANDA – Sud africano era un termine esatto?
RISPOSTA – No no, infatti volevo precisare che lei il particolare di questo ragazzo non lo rammentava, perlomeno non me ne aveva parlato, dunque io le ho detto se le veniva mente anche di un ragazzo che era stato nell’abitazione dei vicini di casa, degli studenti che abitavano sotto perché avevamo saputo da quegli altri ragazzi che avevano avuto un incontro, una sera avevano fatto una festicciola a casa e che avevano, in cui si trovava anche, in quella circostanza si trovava anche Amanda e Meredith, e lì lei mi disse: “Sì, è vero mi ricordo di questo ragazzo ma non so dire né il nome né non so fornire numero di telefono perché non l’ho più rivisto, non so dire altro”. Questo è quello che mi ha detto quindi è stata…

 

[Harmony 2]

The Massei Report context for the head injury is that after Meredith had been attacked and stabbed, she fell to the ground and her head hit something. I understood the earlier remarks to be implying that she was deliberately hit in the head by her attackers. Falling to the ground after being attacked and stabbed is a different situation than receiving a head injury as part of the attack.

"She is bleeding from an arterial wound, she is no longer breathing and she falls. She strikes her head in the occipital seat, turned around automatically by the attacker, who was holding her towards the right‛."

Pg 140 Massei Report
http://www.westseattleherald.com/si...ttachments/MasseiReportEnglishTranslation.pdf


Additionally, as far as I can understand, this seems to be part of the hypothesis presented by a defense lawyer.

"Professor Francesco Introna, forensic pathologist and consultant for Raffaele Sollecito's defence, testified at the hearing of June 20, 2009."

Pg 130
http://www.westseattleherald.com/si...ttachments/MasseiReportEnglishTranslation.pdf

Professor Introna was recreating or hypothesizing to account for the injuries on Meredith.

"we have recreated all the injuries which we have described, including those to the hands, obviously hypothesising that there was glass in the areas where [the hands] were balancing"

The professor does not account for the diffusion of blood on Meredith's face.

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

page 110

From a brief external inspection, he noted diffuse blood staining on the face and the presence of some wounds on the neck.

dif•fuse
diˈfyo͞oz/
spread or cause to spread over a wide area or among a large number of people.

adjective: diffuse
diˈfyo͞os/
spread out over a large area; not concentrated.

The professor has her low to the ground on her knees but then somehow she flips her over in mid air to land on her head. I agree that Meredith was on her knees and low to the ground because of the finger swipes which were very low on the wardrobe and the aspirated blood on the floor. However, I believe at some point she was face down on the floor and that is how the blood got diffused on her face.

At that point, while Meredith lay face down Rudy got the pillow placed it in the middle of the room and rolled her onto it to sexually assault her.

"She is bleeding from an arterial wound, she is no longer breathing and she falls. She strikes her head in the occipital seat, turned around automatically by the attacker, who was holding her towards the right‛."

bolding: turned around automatically by the attacker

If Meredith fell on the back of her head then is the Professor saying she was flipped over to her stomach?

 

[otto]

thank you. the saint vs. sinner, angel vs. devil, virgin vs. wh***, serious student vs. partier, clean vs. druggie characterization gets old.

i read she wasn't an erasmus student somewhere too...

Much as Knox supporters appear to want to pull Meredith down to Knox's level, Meredith had nothing in common with Knox. Let's look at her sister to gain a glimpse of what Meredith's future could have been.

"[Stephanie Kercher] was given the editor's choice prize at the Cosmopolitan Ultimate Women of the Year Awards on Tuesday evening. Cosmopolitan editor Louise Court said: "Since the death of her sister Meredith five years ago, Stephanie remains an inspiring figure of strength and support."

https://www.google.ca/#q=meredith+kercher+cosmopolitan

... and in contrast

"Amanda Knox wrongly accused a bar owner of murdering Meredith Kercher to “throw off course” the investigation into the crime, the businessman’s lawyer has said."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...t-suspicion-over-Meredith-Kercher-murder.html

There is nothing in common between these two women.

 

[otto]

I'm interested in peoples thoughts on this.

Rita Ficarra said she arrived at 11pm on the 5th and asked Amanda to tell her about people who had been to the cottage. Amanda told her about several people and one was a South African coloured guy who played basketball at Piazza Grimana. The guy had been to the downstairs apartment but she didn't know his name or number.

In a guilt scenario why is she saying this? Is she being diabolical Amanda taunting the cops? Why not give his name? She's suppose to have cleaned and staged it looking like his MO. Why didn't she know his name? She's suppose to have committed a murder sex orgy with him just days earlier.


http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-conten...i-Ficarra-Bigini-Zugarini-Finzi-Gubbiotti.pdf

pages 67-68

DOMANDA – Riferisca tutto quello che ha riportato nell’annotazione.
RISPOSTA – Sì, questo l’ho già detto, praticamente… L’annotazione è del 6 novembre alle ore 20.00, l’ho fatta alla sera perché poi non avendo dormito due giorni, la mattina quando ho finito sono andata a letto. Mattina e pomeriggio. La prima parte l’ho già riferita e mi dà indicazione di questi ragazzi, di non italiani, di un certo PJ Peter Svizzero, che sarebbe stato più volte nella loro abitazione e che abitava vicino alla zona di Via della Pergola 7. Patrick del proprietario del locale
Le Chique dove la stessa lavorava, l’ho già detto, mi fornisce le utenze cellulari. Poi mi parla di un certo Ardak cittadino nord africano e mi dà l’utenza cellulare. Un certo Juve cittadino algerino, che lavorasaltuariamente presso il locale Le Chique e che abiterebbe nei pressi dell’abitazione di un’altra amica della vittima, di Sofie, anche di questo mi fornisce l’utenza cellulare. Poi di Spiros, un ragazzo di nazionalità greca di cui mi fornisce solo l’utenza cellulare. Di Shaki, un cittadino marocchino che lavora in una pizzeria, frequenta i pub frequentati da tutte le ragazze del gruppo della vittima e sempre amico anche di Sofie, ed inoltre riferisce di un ragazzo sud africano di colore, basso, che gioca a basket nel campo di Piazza Grimana, il quale in un’occasione avrebbe frequentato la casa dei ragazzi che abitavano sotto l’appartamento.
DOMANDA – Sud africano era un termine esatto?
RISPOSTA – No no, infatti volevo precisare che lei il particolare di questo ragazzo non lo rammentava, perlomeno non me ne aveva parlato, dunque io le ho detto se le veniva mente anche di un ragazzo che era stato nell’abitazione dei vicini di casa, degli studenti che abitavano sotto perché avevamo saputo da quegli altri ragazzi che avevano avuto un incontro, una sera avevano fatto una festicciola a casa e che avevano, in cui si trovava anche, in quella circostanza si trovava anche Amanda e Meredith, e lì lei mi disse: “Sì, è vero mi ricordo di questo ragazzo ma non so dire né il nome né non so fornire numero di telefono perché non l’ho più rivisto, non so dire altro”. Questo è quello che mi ha detto quindi è stata…

On November 2, 2007 Knox could not remember what she did on the evening of November 1, 2007. It seems that she has some very serious memory issues.

 

[MichaelSmith]

On November 2, 2007 Knox could remember what she did on the evening of November 1, 2007.

Agree She was at Raffaele's place which is what she told them.....over and over.

Would you like to answer the question about what she was doing telling the detective about the black guy who played basketball near the cottage who had been in the downstairs apartment but didn't know his name or number?

 

[SMK]

The head injury is introduced by the prosecution as an explanation for why Meredith was not attacked in her bed. That debate has come up here more than once, the debate about whether Meredith was in her bed when she was attacked. The fact that there was no evidence of bleeding from a head injury on the bed, and she was fully dressed, is used to explain that Meredith was not attacked in bed. I guess the prosecution is thinking that if she was attacked on the bed, she would have been fully assaulted on the bed and not had bleeding by the wall.

If defense lawyers argued that Meredith's head injury was a result of falling after a major artery was severed and she stopped breathing, doesn't that mean that they want to downplay the head injury? Was there haemorrhaging in the brain? Was there a wound on the outside of the head and does anyone know what that looked like? It seems that Hendry had the photos ... does he have that one? If she hit a sharp surface as she collapsed, what surface? Was there bleeding from that head wound?

Meredith had to study for an exam. Had she taken the book she borrowed out of her backpack? If not, what was she doing prior to the attack ... knowing what she might have done would help figure out when she was murdered. If she had taken the textbook out of her backpack, maybe she was studying. Is she hadn't taken the textbook out of her backpack, perhaps she was attacked closer to the time that she arrived at home.

Sorry to keep referring to Hendry, but his is the analysis I drew from for 2 years, and I haven't seen another:

I have put in red font the moment when the reconstruction of events becomes Hendry's alone: One can speculate other events at this point.

Hendry claims (from crime scene photos, documents, and reconstruction analysis) that Meredith arrived home at 8:56 pm on Nov 1. She turned on the overhead light in her room, and put the borrowed text book and notebook on the bed (unopened). She hangs the purse on the chair, and begins a cell phone call to her mother in England. At this point, Guede rushes into the room, interrupting the call.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry10.html

 

[otto]

Professor Introna was recreating or hypothesizing to account for the injuries on Meredith.

The professor does not account for the diffusion of blood on Meredith's face.

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

page 110

dif•fuse
diˈfyo͞oz/
spread or cause to spread over a wide area or among a large number of people.

adjective: diffuse
diˈfyo͞os/
spread out over a large area; not concentrated.

The professor has her low to the ground on her knees but then somehow she flips her over in mid air to land on her head. I agree that Meredith was on her knees and low to the ground because of the finger swipes which were very low on the wardrobe and the aspirated blood on the floor. However, I believe at some point she was face down on the floor and that is how the blood got diffused on her face.

At that point, while Meredith lay face down Rudy got the pillow placed it in the middle of the room and rolled her onto it to sexually assault her.

bolding: turned around automatically by the attacker

If Meredith fell on the back of her head then is the Professor saying she was flipped over to her stomach?

Regarding injuries to Meredith's face, they are alleged to be a results of being suffocated by a hand.

Page 133, Massei Report

"Proceeding to an examination of the wounds, he noted the following:

- scraped and bruised areas around the wings of the nose, but these were of little or no relevance.

- Very small bruised areas around the lips."

I don't think the report is suggesting that Meredith "flips over in mid air to land on her head", but that after she stopped breathing, hit her head on something as she collapsed, and then she was moved or turned by her attackers.

 

[otto]

Agree She was at Raffaele's place which is what she told them.....over and over.

Would you like to answer the question about what she was doing telling the detective about the black guy who played basketball near the cottage who had been in the downstairs apartment but didn't know his name or number?

I have. Knox has serious memory issues when it advances her cause. I hope we haven't already forgotten that Knox is a known liar. She lies for many reasons, including for the purpose of interfering with a murder investigation (e.g.: Patrick Lumumba).

 

[quesarita]

Agree She was at Raffaele's place which is what she told them.....over and over.

Would you like to answer the question about what she was doing telling the detective about the black guy who played basketball near the cottage who had been in the downstairs apartment but didn't know his name or number?

I would say the police missed a major lead they should have followed immediately, as they should have been already somewhat familiar with a basketball player they had very recently spoken with about breaking into places after throwing rocks through windows. They were hampered by their initial belief that the burglary was staged.

When I was the victim of a burglary that looked completely staged (disorder in only one room, obvious swag left untouched in other rooms), the police told me that the reason it appeared staged that way, was likely that the burglar was still in the house when I came home, but fortunately for me, he slipped out the back window where he entered when he heard me unlock the front door.

Also interesting, the burglar in my case wasn't trying to steal what he could as quickly as possible and get out - he was apparently taking a break, drinking a beer in the kitchen when I interrupted him. He left the beer on the counter and his fingerprints on the cans caught him.

It's too bad the Perugian police didn't do more fingerprinting around the cottage for other signs of the burglar. It sounds like Rudy's prints would have also been in the refrigerator, where he also got a drink.

 

[otto]

Sorry to keep referring to Hendry, but his is the analysis I drew from for 2 years, and I haven't seen another:

I have put in red font the moment when the reconstruction of events becomes Hendry's alone: One can speculate other events at this point.

Hendry claims (from crime scene photos, documents, and reconstruction analysis) that Meredith arrived home at 8:56 pm on Nov 1. She turned on the overhead light in her room, and put the borrowed text book and notebook on the bed (unopened). She hangs the purse on the chair, and begins a cell phone call to her mother in England. At this point, Guede rushes into the room, interrupting the call.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry10.html

Thank you. So the book was out of the backpack, and at some point during the investigation it was on the bed. He claims that the purse was on the chair, but we know that it was collected on Dec 18 from the bed. I think he must be speculating about the purse. Since he has the purse in a different location than where it was collected, it seems to me that the book could have been elsewhere as well. It doesn't take anything for a book to go from opened to closed, so I don't see it being closed as meaningful.

I was thinking that if the book was still in the backpack, it would be easier to place the time of death closer to 9PM, but if the book was out of the backpack, then it doesn't help. In fact, it suggests to me that she was home long enough prior to the attack to settle in.

 

[otto]

I would say the police missed a major lead they should have followed immediately, as they should have been already somewhat familiar with a basketball player they had very recently spoken with about breaking into places after throwing rocks through windows. They were hampered by their initial belief that the burglary was staged.

When I was the victim of a burglary that looked completely staged (disorder in only one room, obvious swag left untouched in other rooms), the police told me that the reason it appeared staged that way, was likely that the burglar was still in the house when I came home, but fortunately for me, he slipped out the back window where he entered when he heard me unlock the front door.

Also interesting, the burglar in my case wasn't trying to steal what he could as quickly as possible and get out - he was apparently taking a break, drinking a beer in the kitchen when I interrupted him. He left the beer on the counter and his fingerprints on the cans caught him.

It's too bad the Perugian police didn't do more fingerprinting around the cottage for other signs of the burglar. It sounds like Rudy's prints would have also been in the refrigerator, where he also got a drink.

How is it possible to say that police missed an important lead given that Guede was arrested based on evidence found at the crime scene? There were many people that were interviewed after the murder, not just Knox and Sollecito. Investigators were able to exclude the man that was implicated by Knox, and to arrest the correct culprits that left evidence throughout the crime scene.

Is the idea that police should have chased down Guede based on Knox describing him, but not naming him? Believing Knox when she implicated Patrick certainly wasn't helpful, so isn't it a good thing that police did not rely on Knox for leads in the murder?

 

[SMK]

Thank you. So the book was out of the backpack, and at some point during the investigation it was on the bed. He claims that the purse was on the chair, but we know that it was collected on Dec 18 from the bed. I think he must be speculating about the purse. Since he has the purse in a different location than where it was collected, it seems to me that the book could have been elsewhere as well. It doesn't take anything for a book to go from opened to closed, so I don't see it being closed as meaningful.

I was thinking that if the book was still in the backpack, it would be easier to place the time of death closer to 9PM, but if the book was out of the backpack, then it doesn't help. In fact, it suggests to me that she was home long enough prior to the attack to settle in.

Yes, I would agree. We don't know if she had read the book for awhile before being attacked. She might have, and the fact that she had taken it out and it was on the bed does give her time to be home a bit before being attacked.

 

[quesarita]

How is it possible to say that police missed an important lead given that Guede was arrested based on evidence found at the crime scene? There were many people that were interviewed after the murder, not just Knox and Sollecito. Investigators were able to exclude the man that was implicated by Knox, and to arrest the correct culprits that left evidence throughout the crime scene.

Is the idea that police should have chased down Guede based on Knox describing him, but not naming him? Believing Knox when she implicated Patrick certainly wasn't helpful, so isn't it a good thing that police did not rely on Knox for leads in the murder?

I think they should have done more legwork, more investigating and less theorizing in the early days. IIRC Rudy was arrested at least 2 weeks after the crime and certainly after Knox had been convicted in the press.

 

[otto]

I think they should have done more legwork, more investigating and less theorizing in the early days. IIRC Rudy was arrested at least 2 weeks after the crime and certainly after Knox had been convicted in the press.

More legwork than what? They interviewed Meredith's roommates, friends and associates, the occupants of the downstairs flat, friends of the occupants of the cottage, pub owners, pub guests, instructors at the nearby universities and who knows how many other people. They hit the jackpot when one of the persons they interviewed not only had selective memory failure, but also felt it necessary to implicate an innocent man, in which case she had no problem remembering his name. Investigators arrested three culprits on the basis of crime scene evidence. What did investigators do wrong?

Should they have decided that Knox's suddenly vague memory about a black man from "South Africa", a man without a name, should be their prime suspect? Should investigators have thanked Knox for her eye witness account of Patrick murdering Meredith and sent her on her way?

 

[quesarita]

More legwork than what? They interviewed Meredith's roommates, friends and associates, the occupants of the downstairs flat, friends of the occupants of the cottage, pub owners, pub guests, instructors at the nearby universities and who knows how many other people. They hit the jackpot when one of the persons they interviewed not only had selective memory failure, but also felt it necessary to implicate an innocent man, in which case she had no problem remembering his name. Investigators arrested three culprits on the basis of crime scene evidence. What did investigators do wrong?

Should they have decided that Knox's suddenly vague memory about a black man from "South Africa", a man without a name, should be their prime suspect? Should investigators have thanked Knox for her eye witness account of Patrick murdering Meredith and sent her on her way?

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying they had at least a palm print from under Meredith's body and shoeprints. If they hadn't yet matched the palm print to anyone, I feel they jumped the gun on making Amanda Knox the prime suspect. IMO

 

[SMK]

@Otto: Just wanted to be clear, Hendry said Meredith hooked the shoulder bag onto the chair - maybe different than the purse?

Also , he claims that at 8:56 she initiates a cell phone call to her mother in England. He assumes the call doesn't go through because Guede surprises her. Just curious: Can you think of another reason other than this, that Meredith's call did not go through? thanks

 

[otto]

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying they had at least a palm print from under Meredith's body and shoeprints. If they hadn't yet matched the palm print to anyone, I feel they jumped the gun on making Amanda Knox the prime suspect. IMO

Investigators across the globe are trained to recognize a staged burglary. Glass on top of the ransacked items, absence of evidence beneath the broken window, and deductive reasoning meant that of all occupants of the upstairs flat at the cottage, Knox could be the only culprit. That is, given that the scene was staged, someone with a key had to be involved, and both Laura and Filomina had clear, verifiable explanations of their activities on the night of the murder.

Additionally, Knox made the unusual statement that Meredith routinely locked her bedroom door, which appears to be an attempt to delay the discovery of the body. Knox and Sollecito lied repeatedly to police about their activities on the night of the murder. Those lies had to be investigated, identified as lies, and then the culprits had to be re-interviewed. However, that did not result in tunnel vision such that police only investigated Knox. In fact, many people were interviewed over several days. Knox remained a witness, just like the other parties that were interviewed, until she made a statement placing herself at the scene of the crime at the time of the murder.

In terms of evidence, there was a bloody footprint on the bathmat, bloody footprints in the hallway, prints in the bedroom, blood in the small bathroom and so on. Why should police look only at a palm print or a shoe print when there was also a bloody barefoot print? Why not look for the person that created the bloody footprint, or the person that could be responsible for staging the burglary?

 

[quesarita]

@Otto: Just wanted to be clear, Hendry said Meredith hooked the shoulder bag onto the chair - maybe different than the purse?

Also , he claims that at 8:56 she initiates a cell phone call to her mother in England. He assumes the call doesn't go through because Guede surprises her. Just curious: Can you think of another reason other than this, that Meredith's call did not go through? thanks

And if it was a different reason, why would she not retry the call right away?