Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#12

[Harmony 2]

There was bruising on one of her forearms.

Page 112
There were no noticeable injuries to the chest or abdomen.
The presence of two relatively slight areas of bruising, with scarce colouring and barely noticeable, were detected in the region of the elbow.
On the hands were small wounds showing a very slight defensive response.
A small, very slight patch of colour was noticed on the "anterior inner surface of the left thigh" (page 16). Another bruise was noted on the anterior surface, in the middle third of the right leg" (page 17).

Page 122
As to the presence of other injuries, the following were recalled: bruising of the right upper limb at the elbow; one bruise at the level of the arm; on the right hand, small cuts were present that could have defensive significance but not obviously so.
He indicated that the biological data did not allow for a determination of whether the injuries were caused by one person or by several people, claiming they were compatible with both possibilities "because one person could have acted and hit at [different] times in a kind of struggle, if we can use the term in quotation marks; he might have been one person acting alone and that would be compatible, or it could be with the avvicendamento [joining or alternation] of several people and this also would work" (page 22).

Page 125
This was considered to be the most important among the causes of death: an obstruction of the airways with compression, and associated with this are the lesions typical of this manoeuvre in the labial area [around the lips], in the area of the tongue and in the area of the mucous membrane of the lips, with compression on the dental arches. Therefore a mechanism of obstruction with compression of the external structures and of the respiratory orifices, which caused the characteristic asphyxiation lesions, represented by the small sub-conjunctival haemorrhages, [which are] typical of asphyxiation mechanisms.
An asphyxial cause [of death], therefore, [which was] composed of three mechanisms: a grasping of the chin and also of the neck, and immobilization; lesions from a pointed and cutting weapon; and compression and obstruction of the external airways (page 29 of the transcripts).

Page 136
[134] He then proceeded to describe the two bruised areas present on the left elbow of the victim, and with regard to these, he stated that these were not marks caused by restraining, but hypostatic stains. But since he could not absolutely exclude that they might be bruises stemming from an effort of the victim to defend herself, he noted that the fact that they were present only on the left forearm at the level of the elbow would mean that the forearm remained free, making it difficult to attribute the bruises to the fact of having been restrained.

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

 

[SMK]

Page 136
[134] He then proceeded to describe the two bruised areas present on the left elbow of the victim, and with regard to these, he stated that these were not marks caused by restraining, but hypostatic stains. But since he could not absolutely exclude that they might be bruises stemming from an effort of the victim to defend herself, he noted that the fact that they were present only on the left forearm at the level of the elbow would mean that the forearm remained free, making it difficult to attribute the bruises to the fact of having been restrained.

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/...sseiReport.pdf

OK, so then the arm was free and she was not being restrained.

In fact, these are not bruises at all.

Hypostatic stains occur after death; they are part of the livor mortis or blood pooling which occurs post-mortem.

So we have been arguing about how she got these bruises when in fact it was staining from blood pooling after she had died

 

[Myvice]

I don't get how she could have possibly not been restrained yet have so little in the way of defensive wounds. She didn't sound to be the type of girl that would not fight with everything she had.

 

[SMK]

I don't get how she could have possibly not been restrained yet have so little in the way of defensive wounds. She didn't sound to be the type of girl that would not fight with everything she had.

I would agree. It was said that her defensive wounds were so slight as to be almost non-existent.

 

[Harmony 2]

Pattern of defence injuries among homicidal victims

In all of these cases, there may or may not be the presence of defence wounds. Defence wounds are usually noted in those cases where the assault occurred at close range. These may be in the form of abrasions, contusions, lacerations or even incised wounds.

Classification of defence injuries as ‘active’ and ‘passive’ has also been found in the literature. The locations of these injuries are at those parts of the body which are used to defend one self and are commonly found at the back of the forearm, arm and the palm of the hand. Apart from these defence wounds may also be sustained on legs, feet or on the back. Active defence wounds are sustained when the offending weapon is held by the victim in self-defence. These are usually incised wounds sustained on the palm of the hand. Passive wounds are sustained on the extensor aspect of the limbs to protect the vital parts of the body by covering them.

The present study attempts to highlight the different patterns of defence wounds and their incidences among the fatal homicidal victims in relation to their age and sex.


Table 1 Sex wise distribution of cases of defence wounds.
Sex
Males (cases) 75 (percentage) 83
Females (cases) 15 (percentage) 17
Total (cases) 90 (percentage) 100

Singh4 (29.12%) and Moar5 found defence injuries in small percentage of victims.

http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/2090-536X/PIIS2090536X12000780.pdf

 

[Myvice]

If someone were forcefully covering her mouth and threatening her with a knife her arms are free to defend herself. Makes no sense to me.

 

[quesarita]

OK, so then the arm was free and she was not being restrained.

In fact, these are not bruises at all.

Hypostatic stains occur after death; they are part of the livor mortis or blood pooling which occurs post-mortem.

So we have been arguing about how she got these bruises when in fact it was staining from blood pooling after she had died

Or maybe not. It's not a definitive statement one way or the other if you take the whole paragraph.
Not to belabor the point, but if her jacket was used to restrain her elbows that way, she probably could not have grabbed the knife, but her fingertips could have touched it. IMO

 

[SMK]

Pattern of defence injuries among homicidal victims






http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/2090-536X/PIIS2090536X12000780.pdf

I think the 2 points bolded below (bbm) are what the Massei report was

emphasizing when they said "nearly non-existent defensive wounds indicate possible multiple attackers":

A defense wound or self-defense wound is an injury received by the victim of an attack while trying to defend against the assailant.[1][2] Defensive wounds are often found on the hands and forearms, where the victim has raised them to protect the head and face or to fend off an assault, but may also be present on the feet and legs where a victim attempts defense while lying down and kicking out at the assailant.[3][4][5]

The appearance and nature of the wound varies with the type of weapon used and the location of the injury, and may present as a laceration, abrasion, contusion or bone fracture.[6][7] Where a victim has time to raise hands or arms before being shot by an assailant, the injury may also present as a gunshot wound.[4] Severe laceration of the palmar surface of the hand or partial amputation of fingers may result from the victim grasping the blade of a weapon during an attack.[8] In forensic pathology the presence of defense wounds is highly indicative of homicide and also proves that the victim was, at least initially, conscious and able to offer some resistance during the attack.[9][10][11]

Defense wounds may be classified as active or passive. A victim of a knife attack, for example, would receive active defense wounds from grasping at the knife's blade, and passive defense wounds on the back of the hand if it was raised up to protect the face.[1][10]

Defense wound - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

***It would appear Meredith Kercher as the victim of a knife attack, was suspiciously lacking in both the active and passive types of defense wounds indicated above.:moo:

 

[SMK]

Or maybe not. It's not a definitive statement one way or the other if you take the whole paragraph.
Not to belabor the point, but if her jacket was used to restrain her elbows that way, she probably could not have grabbed the knife, but her fingertips could have touched it. IMO

Well, I feel he was pressed to say that the forearm could be free. I don't think he would indicate post-mortem blood pooling unless he saw it, and would know it when he saw it. MOO
But yes, I do see your point and it is well made.

 

[Harmony 2]

I don't get how she could have possibly not been restrained yet have so little in the way of defensive wounds. She didn't sound to be the type of girl that would not fight with everything she had.

Is it feasible that a powerful, aggressive man with a large knife can control and render submissive a small, terrified woman? What if he said "If you don't do what I say, I'll stab you" or "If you do what I say, I won't hurt you").

Is it feasible she would not fight if the knife was at her throat with the assailant behind her?

Is it feasible she would she would not fight back if she had been hit hard on the head, then her airways constricted while having a knife held at her throat?

 

[Harmony 2]

I think the 2 points bolded below (bbm) are what the Massei report was

emphasizing when they said "nearly non-existent defensive wounds indicate possible multiple attackers":

Defense wound - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

***It would appear Meredith Kercher as the victim of a knife attack, was suspiciously lacking in both the active and passive types of defense wounds indicated above.:moo:

Page 122

He indicated that the biological data did not allow for a determination of whether the injuries were caused by one person or by several people, claiming they were compatible with both possibilities "because one person could have acted and hit at [different] times in a kind of struggle, if we can use the term in quotation marks; he might have been one person acting alone and that would be compatible, or it could be with the avvicendamento [joining or alternation] of several people and this also would work" (page 22).

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

 

[SMK]

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

Yes, I clearly saw that part, and there was an expert during the Massei trial and within the report, who said it could ONLY have been a single attacker at this crime scene.

Not withstanding,

I meant the conclusion reached by the Massei court was that of multiple attackers.

 

[otto]

Is it feasible that a powerful, aggressive man with a large knife can control and render submissive a small, terrified woman? What if he said "If you don't do what I say, I'll stab you" or "If you do what I say, I won't hurt you").

Is it feasible she would not fight if the knife was at her throat with the assailant behind her?

Is it feasible she would she would not fight back if she had been hit hard on the head, then her airways constricted while having a knife held at her throat?

Did Meredith have a hard blow to her head?

Guede is 5'10" and he looks a bit skinny. He wasn't working and it doesn't seem like he had a lot of money. Other than throwing the basketball around, I doubt he got much exercise off the dance floor. I would not describe him as "powerful".

Meredith's father said that Meredith would have fought hard, and that she was a strong, fit woman trained in martial arts. I doubt that a threat would have caused her to simply give up the fight for her life.

 

[SMK]

Did Meredith have a hard blow to her head?

Guede is 5'10" and he looks a bit skinny. He wasn't working and it doesn't seem like he had a lot of money. Other than throwing the basketball around, I doubt he got much exercise off the dance floor. I would not describe him as "powerful".

Meredith's father said that Meredith would have fought hard, and that she was a strong, fit woman trained in martial arts. I doubt that a threat would have caused her to simply give up the fight for her life.

I recall in John Kercher's book, he spoke of his anticipation of Guede being brought into the courtroom, and his amazement when instead of the big, burly guy he was expecting from the mugshots, he saw the slightly built, slender shouldered, sunken eyed youth.

Meredith had a blow to her nose and a scratch there, but nothing that would render her unconscious.

 

[Myvice]

I'm 5'3 and weighed about 95 lbs at MK's age. I was married to a cop that was 6'2. He would tickle me to the point that I could hardly breath and on a few occasions he ended up with a bloody nose. (That's one of the reasons he is my ex!)

I know that's just personal experience, but small women can fight when they need to.

 

[quesarita]

I recall in John Kercher's book, he spoke of his anticipation of Guede being brought into the courtroom, and his amazement when instead of the big, burly guy he was expecting from the mugshots, he saw the slightly built, slender shouldered, sunken eyed youth.

Meredith had a blow to her nose and a scratch there, but nothing that would render her unconscious.

Nevertheless, Meredith was "petite" (can't find her true ht.,grrr) and Rudy was 5'-10", and male. Even if they were both athletic, he would have the advantage.

 

[SMK]

I'm 5'3 and weighed about 95 lbs at MK's age. I was married to a cop that was 6'2. He would tickle me to the point that I could hardly breath and on a few occasions he ended up with a bloody nose. (That's one of the reasons he is my ex!)

I know that's just personal experience, but small women can fight when they need to.

:giggle: :laugh:

 

[SMK]

Nevertheless, Meredith was "petite" (can't find her true ht.,grrr) and Rudy was 5'-10", and male. Even if they were both athletic, he would have the advantage.

Yes, being male and taller and having more muscle, he would be at the advantage. But he was far from a big, burly, guy. I still think there might have been more defensive wounds.

 

[otto]

I recall in John Kercher's book, he spoke of his anticipation of Guede being brought into the courtroom, and his amazement when instead of the big, burly guy he was expecting from the mugshots, he saw the slightly built, slender shouldered, sunken eyed youth.

Meredith had a blow to her nose and a scratch there, but nothing that would render her unconscious.

He is the same age as Knox and at the same point in his life as Knox. His studies in becoming a chef fell through when the restaurant where he was apprenticing went out of business. He wasn't an elite athlete, and given his drug use (like Knox), he wasn't spending five hours a day at the gym. He was hanging around, eating junk food at the local kebab vendor, getting stoned, and going to the pubs. He's 5'10", which is an average height. There is nothing about Guede that says "powerful". Knox and Guede were the same age and seemed to have the same lifestyle, and there's no way that anyone would describe Knox as "powerful".

I have never read anything about there being a blow to the head in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

 

[otto]

Yes, being male and taller and having more muscle, he would be at the advantage. But he was far from a big, burly, guy. I still think there might have been more defensive wounds.

Absolutely there should have been defensive wounds. Meredith was a strong, fit, healthy woman trained in martial arts. She was a serious Erasmus student at the University. She smoked pot on occasion, but that was not the norm. Marijuana has not been reported as her favorite vice. It's not possible to be a serious students and be a drug head. Meredith was there to study, not party. So we have a strong, fit, healthy, serious, bright student that is confronted with violent people in her home. There is no way that she would look at a knife and say "okay, you got me, do what you want". I don't believe that for a moment.

Does anyone believe that Knox would have said "okay, you got me, do what you want"?