Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#12

[quesarita]

Investigators across the globe are trained to recognize a staged burglary. Glass on top of the ransacked items, absence of evidence beneath the broken window, and deductive reasoning meant that of all occupants of the upstairs flat at the cottage, Knox could be the only culprit. That is, given that the scene was staged, someone with a key had to be involved, and both Laura and Filomina had clear, verifiable explanations of their activities on the night of the murder.

Additionally, Knox made the unusual statement that Meredith routinely locked her bedroom door, which appears to be an attempt to delay the discovery of the body. Knox and Sollecito lied repeatedly to police about their activities on the night of the murder. Those lies had to be investigated, identified as lies, and then the culprits had to be re-interviewed. However, that did not result in tunnel vision such that police only investigated Knox. In fact, many people were interviewed over several days. Knox remained a witness, just like the other parties that were interviewed, until she made a statement placing herself at the scene of the crime at the time of the murder.

In terms of evidence, there was a bloody footprint on the bathmat, bloody footprints in the hallway, prints in the bedroom, blood in the small bathroom and so on. Why should police look only at a palm print or a shoe print when there was also a bloody barefoot print? Why not look for the person that created the bloody footprint, or the person that could be responsible for staging the burglary?

Yes, why not match all the prints available? Why not take more prints from other areas of the cottage and prints from more people that were known to have been in the cottage?

 

[otto]

@Otto: Just wanted to be clear, Hendry said Meredith hooked the shoulder bag onto the chair - maybe different than the purse?

Also , he claims that at 8:56 she initiates a cell phone call to her mother in England. He assumes the call doesn't go through because Guede surprises her. Just curious: Can you think of another reason other than this, that Meredith's call did not go through? thanks

How do the calls at 9:56PM and 10PM fit into that scenario? I seem to remember that the call to her mother went unanswered, not that it was interrupted. Are we to believe that Guede spent an hour in Meredith's bedroom, and removed her books from her backpack, after murdering her and before generating the call to the bank number?

I did find this (see quote below) about Meredith's plans that evening. That her textbook and notebook had been removed from her backpack suggests to me that she made a call to her mom as she walked home, but it was not interrupted by an attack. She arrived at home, prepared to write an essay, may have been researching that paper in the textbook, and later she was attacked.

"During one of the last phone calls Meredith made on the day she died, she told her mother that despite feeling tired from a party the previous night she planned to go home and write an essay."

http://www.stylist.co.uk/people/meredith-kercher-the-woman-the-world-forgot#image-rotator-1

I still think it's possible that the missing money may have triggered the call to the bank, although she forgot to dial the prefix. She may have reconsidered, and decided to call the following day during banking hours.

We also have the report of a scream by several witnesses, which places the murder closer to 10:30 ... I don't remember the exact time that the scream was reported by a neighbor.

 

[quesarita]

How do the calls at 9:56PM and 10PM fit into that scenario? I seem to remember that the call to her mother went unanswered, not that it was interrupted. Are we to believe that Guede spent an hour in Meredith's bedroom, and removed her books from her backpack, after murdering her and before generating the call to the bank number?

All of the reports I read about the call said it was "mysteriously cut off," not that it went unanswered.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/03/22/report-murdered-british-coed-last-call-home-cut-off/

 

[SMK]

All of the reports I read about the call said it was "mysteriously cut off," not that it went unanswered.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/03/22/report-murdered-british-coed-last-call-home-cut-off/

Yes, I guess this is why Hendry assumed Guede had ambushed Meredith as she tried to place the call. From the link aboive:

Evidence revealed Friday showed that a call to Kercher’s mother, Arline, was made from her cell phone at 8:56 p.m. on Nov. 1, 2007. Kercher used the phone daily to call her mother, who was ill.

The call was cut off before she got through. The prosecution believes Kercher died between 9 p.m. and 11 p.m. because she refused to take part in a sex game with Knox, Sollecito and Rudy Guede, 21, a drifter who has already been convicted of murder and sentenced to 30 years in jail.

Investigators are not sure whether the call was a cry for help or was made involuntarily as Kercher struggled with her attackers.

Maybe the 8:56 call was attempted while she was walking home, and she decided to wait as she saw she was approaching the cottage. Perhaps it was made from home, and she aborted it , once more, because she felt she should wait, or something diverted her attention.

@Otto: I guess Hendry has the phones on Guede after 10, and believes he fumbled and made accidental calls trying to turn it off.

 

[otto]

Yes, I guess this is why Hendry assumed Guede had ambushed Meredith as she tried to place the call. From the link aboive:

"Evidence revealed Friday showed that a call to Kercher’s mother, Arline, was made from her cell phone at 8:56 p.m. on Nov. 1, 2007. Kercher used the phone daily to call her mother, who was ill.

The call was cut off before she got through. The prosecution believes Kercher died between 9 p.m. and 11 p.m. because she refused to take part in a sex game with Knox, Sollecito and Rudy Guede, 21, a drifter who has already been convicted of murder and sentenced to 30 years in jail.

Investigators are not sure whether the call was a cry for help or was made involuntarily as Kercher struggled with her attackers."

Maybe the 8:56 call was attempted while she was walking home, and she decided to wait as she saw she was approaching the cottage. Perhaps it was made from home, and she aborted it , once more, because she felt she should wait, or something diverted her attention.

@Otto: I guess Hendry has the phones on Guede after 10, and believes he fumbled and made accidental calls trying to turn it off.

BBM
That bold statement seems to presume that Meredith was attacked at 8:56. That is, to suggest that the call was aborted because:
a) the call was a cry for help, or
b) the call was made due to a struggle,
seems to exclude the possibility that Meredith decided that it was too late to place a call to her mother.

If the calls at 8:56, 9:56 and 10 PM were all made by her attackers or due to the attack, that would suggest that after the murder, there was no urgency to leave the cottage even though it was known that eight people lived there and could arrive home at any moment. That doesn't seem very sensible. If the theory is that Guede acted alone, he should have known perfectly well that Knox, Laura and Filomina could come home at any moment, yet we should believe that he spent more than an hour sitting in Meredith's room after attacking her, and before running down the hallway and into the streets, locking Meredith's bedroom door, but leaving the front door unlocked?

That doesn't really add up for me.

 

[otto]

All of the reports I read about the call said it was "mysteriously cut off," not that it went unanswered.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/03/22/report-murdered-british-coed-last-call-home-cut-off/

I think that "mysteriously cut off" is adding drama. The call did not go through and we don't know why, but there is no reason to assume that the call did not go through because she was attacked at that moment, especially since other evidence (phone calls, scream, witness testimony) supports a different timeline.

 

[SMK]

And if it was a different reason, why would she not retry the call right away?

For all we know, Meredith was placing the call to her mother, and then realizing the time (going on 9 PM) maybe thought it was too late (her mother had medical problems and perhaps at her age needed to retire early to bed).

Or , if Perugia was one hour ahead of London, conversely Meredith may have felt it was too early, and she could call later. :facepalm:

 

[SMK]

I think that "mysteriously cut off" is adding drama. The call did not go through and we don't know why, but there is no reason to assume that the call did not go through because she was attacked at that moment, especially since other evidence (phone calls, scream, witness testimony) supports a different timeline.

Another point:

If her mother were really expecting the call (meaning as Queserita says, if not attacked Meredith would have retried soon after) then when the call never came, the mom probably would have begun phoning her daughter's contacts and even the Perugia police. As this didn't happen, the call home was not expected and not urgent and Meredith may have herself aborted it. Hendry makes a leap of faith with the 8:56 call.

 

[SMK]

BBM
That bold statement seems to presume that Meredith was attacked at 8:56. That is, to suggest that the call was aborted because:
a) the call was a cry for help, or
b) the call was made due to a struggle,
seems to exclude the possibility that Meredith decided that it was too late to place a call to her mother.

If the calls at 8:56, 9:56 and 10 PM were all made by her attackers or due to the attack, that would suggest that after the murder, there was no urgency to leave the cottage even though it was known that eight people lived there and could arrive home at any moment. That doesn't seem very sensible. If the theory is that Guede acted alone, he should have known perfectly well that Knox, Laura and Filomina could come home at any moment, yet we should believe that he spent more than an hour sitting in Meredith's room after attacking her, and before running down the hallway and into the streets, locking Meredith's bedroom door, but leaving the front door unlocked?

That doesn't really add up for me.

Nor for me.

I too had thought that Meredith may have stopped the call realizing her Mom, with serious medical problems , might be resting.

And it sells newspapers, to add drama such as the call was cut off by the attack, or poor Meredith was trying to alert her Mom as she was attacked. This is conjecture. I often am about to place a call and then just before it rings, I hang up, thinking, "no, later."

 

[quesarita]

Nor for me.

I too had thought that Meredith may have stopped the call realizing her Mom, with serious medical problems , might be resting.

And it sells newspapers, to add drama such as the call was cut off by the attack, or poor Meredith was trying to alert her Mom as she was attacked. This is conjecture. I often am about to place a call and then just before it rings, I hang up, thinking, "no, later."

Yes, but we should be able to determine if the call went through and was unanswered, or if it was ended before connecting, whatever the reason.

 

[redheadedgal]

Much as Knox supporters appear to want to pull Meredith down to Knox's level, Meredith had nothing in common with Knox. Let's look at her sister to gain a glimpse of what Meredith's future could have been.

"[Stephanie Kercher] was given the editor's choice prize at the Cosmopolitan Ultimate Women of the Year Awards on Tuesday evening. Cosmopolitan editor Louise Court said: "Since the death of her sister Meredith five years ago, Stephanie remains an inspiring figure of strength and support."

... and in contrast

"Amanda Knox wrongly accused a bar owner of murdering Meredith Kercher to “throw off course” the investigation into the crime, the businessman’s lawyer has said."

There is nothing in common between these two women.

"could have been" ?

this is another stretch -- to compare MK to SK.

i know many cases where one sibling is much more accomplished than another. wishful thinking and imagining does not make it so.

the reality is that as MichaelSmith mentioned, AK and MK had much in common.

 

[otto]

Yes, but we should be able to determine if the call went through and was unanswered, or if it was ended before connecting, whatever the reason.

I think you are correct in that the call did not go through. There is no way to know why that happened, as the reasons range from being startled or attacked (which would not likely result in someone stopping the call from going through), to deciding that it was not a good time to place the call.

 

[SMK]

Yes, but we should be able to determine if the call went through and was unanswered, or if it was ended before connecting, whatever the reason.

Well, her mother did not phone back. So was not wondering about any expected call, or a one ring call. Maybe Meredith herself dialed and then hung up prior to it ringing. The Mom seemed unaware. Meredith had spoken to her earlier in the day, telling her she needed to study and go to bed early.

 

[otto]

"could have been" ?

this is another stretch -- to compare MK to SK.

i know many cases where one sibling is much more accomplished than another. wishful thinking and imagining does not make it so.

the reality is that as MichaelSmith mentioned, AK and MK had much in common.

I understand that Knox supporters want to pull Meredith down to Knox's level, however Knox was convicted of murder. She is appealing that conviction. She will always be a convicted criminal for falsely accusing Patrick of murder. It's absurd to say that a murder victim is just like a convicted criminal. The only thing that I see them having in common is that they're both women.

 

[Katody]

Amanda slander conviction is rather ridiculous given the "nonexistent" recording of the interrogation, the obviously false stories Mignini told to explain it and the conflicting and incoherent stories the interrogators told about the overnight questioning.

There is no evidence she lied, there's only a paper typed in Italian by the cops who made her sign it using intimidation, physical and psychological abuse and manipulation. I think it's much more an evidence against the cops than against her.

Also, I think Meredith had very much in common with Amanda and I can easily imagine cops going after Meredith in similar manner if things happened different.

 

[Katody]

I'm interested in peoples thoughts on this.

Rita Ficarra said she arrived at 11pm on the 5th and asked Amanda to tell her about people who had been to the cottage. Amanda told her about several people and one was a South African coloured guy who played basketball at Piazza Grimana. The guy had been to the downstairs apartment but she didn't know his name or number.

In a guilt scenario why is she saying this? Is she being diabolical Amanda taunting the cops? Why not give his name? She's suppose to have cleaned and staged it looking like his MO. Why didn't she know his name? She's suppose to have committed a murder sex orgy with him just days earlier.


http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-conten...i-Ficarra-Bigini-Zugarini-Finzi-Gubbiotti.pdf

pages 67-68

DOMANDA – Riferisca tutto quello che ha riportato nell’annotazione.
RISPOSTA – Sì, questo l’ho già detto, praticamente… L’annotazione è del 6 novembre alle ore 20.00, l’ho fatta alla sera perché poi non avendo dormito due giorni, la mattina quando ho finito sono andata a letto. Mattina e pomeriggio. La prima parte l’ho già riferita e mi dà indicazione di questi ragazzi, di non italiani, di un certo PJ Peter Svizzero, che sarebbe stato più volte nella loro abitazione e che abitava vicino alla zona di Via della Pergola 7. Patrick del proprietario del locale
Le Chique dove la stessa lavorava, l’ho già detto, mi fornisce le utenze cellulari. Poi mi parla di un certo Ardak cittadino nord africano e mi dà l’utenza cellulare. Un certo Juve cittadino algerino, che lavorasaltuariamente presso il locale Le Chique e che abiterebbe nei pressi dell’abitazione di un’altra amica della vittima, di Sofie, anche di questo mi fornisce l’utenza cellulare. Poi di Spiros, un ragazzo di nazionalità greca di cui mi fornisce solo l’utenza cellulare. Di Shaki, un cittadino marocchino che lavora in una pizzeria, frequenta i pub frequentati da tutte le ragazze del gruppo della vittima e sempre amico anche di Sofie, ed inoltre riferisce di un ragazzo sud africano di colore, basso, che gioca a basket nel campo di Piazza Grimana, il quale in un’occasione avrebbe frequentato la casa dei ragazzi che abitavano sotto l’appartamento.
DOMANDA – Sud africano era un termine esatto?
RISPOSTA – No no, infatti volevo precisare che lei il particolare di questo ragazzo non lo rammentava, perlomeno non me ne aveva parlato, dunque io le ho detto se le veniva mente anche di un ragazzo che era stato nell’abitazione dei vicini di casa, degli studenti che abitavano sotto perché avevamo saputo da quegli altri ragazzi che avevano avuto un incontro, una sera avevano fatto una festicciola a casa e che avevano, in cui si trovava anche, in quella circostanza si trovava anche Amanda e Meredith, e lì lei mi disse: “Sì, è vero mi ricordo di questo ragazzo ma non so dire né il nome né non so fornire numero di telefono perché non l’ho più rivisto, non so dire altro”. Questo è quello che mi ha detto quindi è stata…

Excellent question and little wonder you got no answer from the pro guilt people. The guilt scenario simply doesn't add up as the above perfectly highlights.

 

[Katody]

He doesn't say that. If he had drawn conclusions from the empty duodenum then it would have been explained. If you read his whole story then it is perfectly clear he is talking about the total emptying time of the stomach being 2-3 hours and therefore usually death would be 2-3 hours after eating because the stomach was not empty. But it is a quote taken out of context as he continues to explain that it is very unreliable and that there are other factors to be considered.

I don't agree. Lalli was the one who did the autopsy and knew perfectly well about the empty duodenum and full stomach with distinguishable pizza meal inside. Why would he theorize when he had a specific case to talk about? The literature I quoted says outright that identifiable stomach contents mean ToD no longer than 2-3 hours from the meal.

So basically there is only a contradiction if you take his words out of context. He says that gastric emptying starts fairly quick. If there had been such a rare 3 hour delay he would certainly have explained it. That is just common sense. It is not really explained why most experts ignore the empty duodenum except by Professor Umani Ronchi.

What is fairly quick? There is variance and 2-3 hours take this variance into account. That's why it is the upper limit.

So there is no reason to assume something very rare happened with Meredith. And certainly not that this rare occurrence ended after exactly 3 hours. There is also the possibility Meredith ate something at home, but it seems that the experts in the trial do not find the empty duodenum very reliable and therefore do not consider it. JMO.

There's zero evidence she ate anything, not to mention a full meal at home. Talking about "very rare", the prosecution argued her stomach didn't start to empty almost until midnight.

There's no way around it, the later the ToD you want, the less probable it is to the point of miraculous impossibility. It makes the earliest possible time of attack ( 9 pm) the most probable. It happens that other, independent points of evidence match the 9pm stabbing best.

 

[Katody]

The bloody handprint was the single most important piece of evidence, allowing to immediately identify or exclude anyone the police had in the documents or questioned.

They managed to arrest three people none of whom matched the print while they had Guede in the database ready to be identified. :facepalm:

 

[SMK]

Excellent question and little wonder you got no answer from the pro guilt people. The guilt scenario simply doesn't add up as the above perfectly highlights.

I do not consider myself boxed into a "pro-guilt" stance, and was long steeped in only pro-innocence literature, and still feel the lone wolf scenario could be a good explanation - I am simply open to guilt, open to entertaining the idea that something else could be true (for example, if Knox and Sollecito are acquitted on the 30th due to lack of evidence, I will accept this with no resentment and no ill will toward the defendants in their victory.).

For her to speak vaguely of Guede as some "South African guy" obviously either speaks of innocence, or is deliberately attempting to deceive, in an intelligent way (telling a partial truth but not the whole truth). No big mystery: She is either innocent and she spoke with complete candor, or has some culpability and spoke vaguely intentionally. I don't pretend to "know" which it was.

 

[SMK]

Amanda slander conviction is rather ridiculous given the "nonexistent" recording of the interrogation, the obviously false stories Mignini told to explain it and the conflicting and incoherent stories the interrogators told about the overnight questioning.

There is no evidence she lied, there's only a paper typed in Italian by the cops who made her sign it using intimidation, physical and psychological abuse and manipulation. I think it's much more an evidence against the cops than against her.

Also, I think Meredith had very much in common with Amanda and I can easily imagine cops going after Meredith in similar manner if things happened different.

BBM - I am not interested in pitting Amanda and Meredith against eachother; however, I feel you are wrong about the police going after Meredith in similar fashion had Amanda been killed.

I think this is wrong, NOT because Amanda is a "bad" person while Meredith is a "good" one: But because Amanda had a certain aura about her (part Seattle "free spirit" aura/part pretty but "male" aura/part quirky intellectual with the kind of "candor" often associated with Asperger syndrome (my own son has this diagnosis and is often misunderstood).

I am making NO moral judgments here: I am simply saying that for good or for ill, right or wrong, Amanda was "suspect" in a way that Laura, Filomena, etc. were not - NOT because they are "superior", but more as I said as my own son is often "suspect" (and in fact has been questioned twice by police when he was doing nothing wrong).

Also, Kercher was British, not American. Some of Amanda's American ways may have been offensive or inexplicable to the Italians. Just trying to clarify .....