Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#12

[Katody]

For her to speak vaguely of Guede as some "South African guy" obviously either speaks of innocence, or is deliberately attempting to deceive, in an intelligent way (telling a partial truth but not the whole truth).

The problem in my view is that this is an oft repeated slogan that explains nothing and doesn't seem to have any underlying meaning.

The whole situation of carefully preserving Guede's traces during cleanup (as the accusers seem to think) , pointing them to the cops, giving them clues about Guede doesn't add up with the idea that she was so very very :noooo: afraid they will find Guede because he would talk.

I just don't see the deliberate in it.

 

[SMK]

The problem in my view is that this is an oft repeated slogan that explains nothing and doesn't seem to have any underlying meaning.

The whole situation of carefully preserving Guede's traces during cleanup (as the accusers seem to think) , pointing them to the cops, giving them clues about Guede doesn't add up with the idea that she was so very very :noooo: afraid they will find Guede because he would talk.

I just don't see the deliberate in it.

I always had questions about any clean up in the murder room. I can see Guede alone in there , whether the defendants are innocent or involved. As I said, if one tries to understand her vague comments about the South African guy from the perspective of guilt (we need no reflections on it if she is innocent) then it may have been just off-the-cuff, for good measure vagueness. Best I can do from that perspective.

 

[MichaelSmith]

How is it possible to say that police missed an important lead given that Guede was arrested based on evidence found at the crime scene? There were many people that were interviewed after the murder, not just Knox and Sollecito. Investigators were able to exclude the man that was implicated by Knox, and to arrest the correct culprits that left evidence throughout the crime scene.

Is the idea that police should have chased down Guede based on Knox describing him, but not naming him? Believing Knox when she implicated Patrick certainly wasn't helpful, so isn't it a good thing that police did not rely on Knox for leads in the murder?

Stefano told them on the 4th about a poo man who'd been in their apartment and they had poo in the upstairs apartment. You'd think even for Perugia's keystone cops that someone would have made a connection and investigated.

 

[MichaelSmith]

How do the calls at 9:56PM and 10PM fit into that scenario? I seem to remember that the call to her mother went unanswered, not that it was interrupted. Are we to believe that Guede spent an hour in Meredith's bedroom, and removed her books from her backpack, after murdering her and before generating the call to the bank number?

I did find this (see quote below) about Meredith's plans that evening. That her textbook and notebook had been removed from her backpack suggests to me that she made a call to her mom as she walked home, but it was not interrupted by an attack. She arrived at home, prepared to write an essay, may have been researching that paper in the textbook, and later she was attacked.

"During one of the last phone calls Meredith made on the day she died, she told her mother that despite feeling tired from a party the previous night she planned to go home and write an essay."

http://www.stylist.co.uk/people/meredith-kercher-the-woman-the-world-forgot#image-rotator-1

I still think it's possible that the missing money may have triggered the call to the bank, although she forgot to dial the prefix. She may have reconsidered, and decided to call the following day during banking hours.

We also have the report of a scream by several witnesses, which places the murder closer to 10:30 ... I don't remember the exact time that the scream was reported by a neighbor.

The attempted calls around 10pm never connected to a tower so it's unknown where the phones are but the tower the 10.13pm mms pinged off shows they had left the cottage imo.

 

[MichaelSmith]

I'm interested in peoples thoughts on this.

Rita Ficarra said she arrived at 11pm on the 5th and asked Amanda to tell her about people who had been to the cottage. Amanda told her about several people and one was a South African coloured guy who played basketball at Piazza Grimana. The guy had been to the downstairs apartment but she didn't know his name or number.

In a guilt scenario why is she saying this? Is she being diabolical Amanda taunting the cops? Why not give his name? She's suppose to have cleaned and staged it looking like his MO. Why didn't she know his name? She's suppose to have committed a murder sex orgy with him just days earlier.


http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-conten...i-Ficarra-Bigini-Zugarini-Finzi-Gubbiotti.pdf

pages 67-68

DOMANDA – Riferisca tutto quello che ha riportato nell’annotazione.
RISPOSTA – Sì, questo l’ho già detto, praticamente… L’annotazione è del 6 novembre alle ore 20.00, l’ho fatta alla sera perché poi non avendo dormito due giorni, la mattina quando ho finito sono andata a letto. Mattina e pomeriggio. La prima parte l’ho già riferita e mi dà indicazione di questi ragazzi, di non italiani, di un certo PJ Peter Svizzero, che sarebbe stato più volte nella loro abitazione e che abitava vicino alla zona di Via della Pergola 7. Patrick del proprietario del locale
Le Chique dove la stessa lavorava, l’ho già detto, mi fornisce le utenze cellulari. Poi mi parla di un certo Ardak cittadino nord africano e mi dà l’utenza cellulare. Un certo Juve cittadino algerino, che lavorasaltuariamente presso il locale Le Chique e che abiterebbe nei pressi dell’abitazione di un’altra amica della vittima, di Sofie, anche di questo mi fornisce l’utenza cellulare. Poi di Spiros, un ragazzo di nazionalità greca di cui mi fornisce solo l’utenza cellulare. Di Shaki, un cittadino marocchino che lavora in una pizzeria, frequenta i pub frequentati da tutte le ragazze del gruppo della vittima e sempre amico anche di Sofie, ed inoltre riferisce di un ragazzo sud africano di colore, basso, che gioca a basket nel campo di Piazza Grimana, il quale in un’occasione avrebbe frequentato la casa dei ragazzi che abitavano sotto l’appartamento.
DOMANDA – Sud africano era un termine esatto?
RISPOSTA – No no, infatti volevo precisare che lei il particolare di questo ragazzo non lo rammentava, perlomeno non me ne aveva parlato, dunque io le ho detto se le veniva mente anche di un ragazzo che era stato nell’abitazione dei vicini di casa, degli studenti che abitavano sotto perché avevamo saputo da quegli altri ragazzi che avevano avuto un incontro, una sera avevano fatto una festicciola a casa e che avevano, in cui si trovava anche, in quella circostanza si trovava anche Amanda e Meredith, e lì lei mi disse: “Sì, è vero mi ricordo di questo ragazzo ma non so dire né il nome né non so fornire numero di telefono perché non l’ho più rivisto, non so dire altro”. Questo è quello che mi ha detto quindi è stata…

Proper translation:

QUESTION - Refer to everything that has been reported in the record.
ANSWER - Yes, I've already told you, literally. The record is dated 6 November at 20.00 , I made it in the evening because then not having slept in two days, in the morning when I finished I went to bed. Morning and afternoon. The first part I have already referred to it, and it gives me an indication of these guys, not Italian, a certain PJ Peter Svizzero, who would have been several times in their home and who lived near the area of Via della Pergola 7. P atrick, the owner of the local
Le Chique where he was working. I have said it provides cell phone utilization. Then it speaks of a certain Ardak north African citizen and gives me the mobile phone utilization. A certain Juve, Algerian national, who works occasionally at the local Le Chique and who lives in the vicinity of the house of another friend of the victim, Sophie. Also this gives me the mobile phone use. Then Spiros, a boy of Greek nationality that only gives me mobile phone use. Shaky, a Moroccan citizen who works in a pizzeria frequented the pub frequented by all the girls in the group of the victim and still also a friend Sofie. And it also refers to a South African boy of color, short (?) (“basso”), who played basketball at the court in Piazza Grimana, who on one occasion visited the house of the boys who lived in the apartment below.
QUESTION - South African was that term correct?
ANSWER - No, no, in fact I wanted to clarify that regarding the particulars of this boy, she didn’t remember him, at least had not told me about him, so I told her if it came to mind about a boy who had been in the home of neighbors, students who lived there, because we had learned from those other guys who had had a meeting one evening they had a little party at home and they had, where he was also in that circumstance was also Amanda and Meredith, and there she said, "Yes, it is true , I remember this guy but I can not say either his name nor provide his phone number because I have not seen him again. I can not say anything other." This is what I said then was...

 

[MichaelSmith]

I just want to correct something from a few pages ago. Meredith wasn't picked up for drunken disorderly but stopped for public intoxication according to Angel Face. No big deal.... just like Amanda's noise ticket.

Meredith was a slender woman with pretty features that reflected her mixed heritage; her father is British, her mother an Indian born in Lahore when Pakistan was still considered part of confederated India. The young woman’s background, according to her hometown newspaper in Croydon, South London, was “solid, very proper middle-upper class.” She was a typical British girl who had her fair share of romances and who was not particularly embarrassed about being sloppy drunk in public— she had been stopped once for public intoxication with friends in Leeds. She had three boyfriends in her two years at Leeds. Her latest beau was the most serious, but the two decided amicably to calm things down before she went to study in Perugia and he in Australia.

Nadeau, Barbie Latza (2010-03-05). Angel Face: Sex, Murder and the Inside Story of Amanda Knox (pp. 6-7). Beast Books. Kindle Edition.

 

[sherlockh]

I don't agree. Lalli was the one who did the autopsy and knew perfectly well about the empty duodenum and full stomach with distinguishable pizza meal inside. Why would he theorize when he had a specific case to talk about? The literature I quoted says outright that identifiable stomach contents mean ToD no longer than 2-3 hours from the meal.

I don't think Dr Lalli was aware of the time Meredith had started to eat otherwise I think he would have questioned his 'empty duodenum' finding. I agree with the literature, but that is based on stomach emptying. That it is not very reliable. This has nothing to do with an empty duodenum.

What is fairly quick? There is variance and 2-3 hours take this variance into account. That's why it is the upper limit.

The literature says 'fairly quick' is 20 minutes with a +- 10 minute range for solid food. The variance is small because this is only the start of stomach emptying.

normal values have been reported to be 20±10 minutes (SD) (43Ziessman2007)

http://interactive.snm.org/docs/GES_Consensus_Manuscript_4-23a-2007.pdf

There's zero evidence she ate anything, not to mention a full meal at home. Talking about "very rare", the prosecution argued her stomach didn't start to empty almost until midnight.

The evidence is the impossibility of a 3 hour gastric emptying delay, and a possible empty duodenum. Why must it be a full meal? How much did she eat before? A mushroom and some alcohol were found in her system that were not consumed with her friends, so she must have eaten something at home.

There's no way around it, the later the ToD you want, the less probable it is to the point of miraculous impossibility. It makes the earliest possible time of attack ( 9 pm) the most probable. It happens that other, independent points of evidence match the 9pm stabbing best.

Other independent points of evidence such as the witnesses all point to a later TOD. At least sometime after 10pm. Guede himself declared later that he left around 22:30 shortly after Meredith was stabbed. Knox deliberately kept changing her dinner time to as late as 23:00 for a reason. JMO.

 

[sherlockh]

Excellent question and little wonder you got no answer from the pro guilt people. The guilt scenario simply doesn't add up as the above perfectly highlights.

It has already been discussed why they not directly accused each other. The question is how would Guede have known to stage a burglary fitting the MO of Knox? That is some coincidence!

 

[Katody]

It has already been discussed why they not directly accused each other. The question is how would Guede have known to stage a burglary fitting the MO of Knox? That is some coincidence!

:floorlaugh: Thanks for this Sherlock

 

[Katody]

I don't think Dr Lalli was aware of the time Meredith had started to eat otherwise I think he would have questioned his 'empty duodenum' finding. I agree with the literature, but that is based on stomach emptying. That it is not very reliable. This has nothing to do with an empty duodenum.

I disagree. Lalli saw the full stomach, the empty duodenum and said ToD was at most 3 hours after the meal. It's simple as that.

The literature says 'fairly quick' is 20 minutes with a +- 10 minute range for solid food. The variance is small because this is only the start of stomach emptying.

http://interactive.snm.org/docs/GES_Consensus_Manuscript_4-23a-2007.pdf

This is data for imaging patients with "test" portions after fasting that have little in common with real life pizza meal after a night of heavy alcohol use.

Why must it be a full meal? How much did she eat before? A mushroom and some alcohol were found in her system that were not consumed with her friends, so she must have eaten something at home.

No, there was no alcohol consumed or found. <modsnip>

Other independent points of evidence such as the witnesses all point to a later TOD. At least sometime after 10pm. Guede himself declared later that he left around 22:30 shortly after Meredith was stabbed. Knox deliberately kept changing her dinner time to as late as 23:00 for a reason. JMO.

Guede places ToD at 21:30 not at 22:30. Abnormal phone activity places it at 21.
The only witness who talks about scream, Nara, didn't place it with any precision, being unsure not only about the hour but even what day it was.
The broken car people make any later very improbable, as even Crini had to admit.

 

[redheadedgal]

I understand that Knox supporters want to pull Meredith down to Knox's level, however Knox was convicted of murder. She is appealing that conviction. She will always be a convicted criminal for falsely accusing Patrick of murder. It's absurd to say that a murder victim is just like a convicted criminal. The only thing that I see them having in common is that they're both women.

i would suggest that a witch hunt to convict said "murderer" is on par with, and just as heinous as, being a murder victim.

I have no interest in debating those allegations in the context of Knox being a verified liar, as most certainly none of the points in any way address the fact that Knox is a known liar with selective memory problems. She was convicted and sent to prison for telling whopper lies.

see katody's post #177

Thanks for finding the link to that comment.

yes, i agree. the more times it's shared, and the more people who read it, might learn the truth about this case.

someone earlier said the list was false and "made up". however, denying the facts don't make them go away.

 

[Jessica2012]

I do not consider myself boxed into a "pro-guilt" stance, and was long steeped in only pro-innocence literature, and still feel the lone wolf scenario could be a good explanation - I am simply open to guilt, open to entertaining the idea that something else could be true (for example, if Knox and Sollecito are acquitted on the 30th due to lack of evidence, I will accept this with no resentment and no ill will toward the defendants in their victory.).

For her to speak vaguely of Guede as some "South African guy" obviously either speaks of innocence, or is deliberately attempting to deceive, in an intelligent way (telling a partial truth but not the whole truth). No big mystery: She is either innocent and she spoke with complete candor, or has some culpability and spoke vaguely intentionally. I don't pretend to "know" which it was.

SMK I feel the exact same way as you do. I was completely pro-innocence, but now I am not as sure. And I too am open to guilt.
I think that Amanda not saying Rudy Guede's name could be completely innocent on her part or it could be that she was distancing herself from the crime. I agree with you also that it could have been a "partial truth". It would probably be easily verifiable that she knew of him in my opinion.

Does anyone who is pro innocence have any thoughts on why in a conversation to her mom from jail (that she did not know was being tapped) Amanda said she was worried about a knife they found in Sollecito place? (Paraphrasing). I really would like to hear pro innocence thoughts on this.

 

[sherlockh]

I disagree. Lalli saw the full stomach, the empty duodenum and said ToD was at most 3 hours after the meal. It's simple as that.

Yes, I already said I agree with that. He does not draw conclusions from the duodenum, otherwise he wouldn't say after eating. Gastric emptying delay starts from the first bite. He talks about the time it takes for the stomach to fully empty. This can vary greatly. Many experts comment on that with many different ranges.

This is data for imaging patients with "test" portions after fasting that have little in common with real life pizza meal after a night of heavy alcohol use.

It refers to what is normal. That is what matters. There is no evidence that alcohol taken the night before would suddenly cause a 3 hour delay in gastric emptying. Deviations for gastric emptying to start are very small.

http://alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/content/40/3/187.full.pdf

No, there was no alcohol consumed or found.

Massei report

According to statements by Dr. Lalli, based on the toxicological tests, the presence of ethyl alcohol in a concentration of 0.43gram/litre was found (Lalli report page 54); Professor Cingolani declared that it was a quantity equivalent to about a glass of beer or wine. During the autopsy, Dr. Lalli discovered a vegetal fragment in the oesophagus, apparently a piece of mushroom (page 46, Lalli report).

Guede places ToD at 21:30 not at 22:30. Abnormal phone activity places it at 21.

Guede SC Report

In the interrogation before the magistrate [interrogatorio di garanzia], he stated that..... He had left the house on via della Pergola at around 22:30.

The only witness who talks about scream, Nara, didn't place it with any precision, being unsure not only about the hour but even what day it was.
The broken car people make any later very improbable, as even Crini had to admit.

Yes, years later she can't remember exactly. What is so strange about that? In her earliest testimony there is no doubt about the day. It is even mentioned on the IIP site that she had a slightly different timing at first which fits exactly with Guede's testimony.

During Rudy's trial, testimony states that the scream occurs from 22:30 to 22:40.

[http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Appeal.html

This means that it probably happened just before the broken car arrived. Nara was definitely not the only witness who heard the scream.

SC Report

But Ms Monacchia was even more precise on the time, and said that she went to bed about 10.00 PM, when after being asleep she was awakened by the noise of animated discussion between a man and a woman going by, along the little street adjacent to her window, and shortly after she heard a woman&#8217;s loud, sharp scream, coming from below, that is from via della Pergola.

The scream is also mentioned by Knox and Guede.

 

[Katody]

Does anyone who is pro innocence have any thoughts on why in a conversation to her mom from jail (that she did not know was being tapped) Amanda said she was worried about a knife they found in Sollecito place? (Paraphrasing). I really would like to hear pro innocence thoughts on this.

Imagine yourself in such situation. You're innocent in jail, waiting for the things to clear up and suddenly they announce on TV a knife with victim's blood have been found connected to you. You wouldn't be worried?

 

[Katody]

Yes, I already said I agree with that. He does not draw conclusions from the duodenum, otherwise he wouldn't say after eating. Gastric emptying delay starts from the first bite. He talks about the time it takes for the stomach to fully empty.

This is simply not true. He clearly says ToD was at most 2-3 hours after the meal.

From Massei:

Dr. Lalli specified that death was considered as occurring not more than two to three hours after eating

You may argue as much as you wish that he didn't really meant to say it, but it is the fact, he did the autopsy and he estimated ToD by state of digestion. It's consistent with forensic literature and other experts in court confirmed this view.

The scream is also mentioned by Knox and Guede.

Sure, and Guede places the scream around 21-21.30.

 

[MichaelSmith]

New article from Frank.

http://wrongfulconvictionnews.com/a...-the-whole-world-is-with-them-and-the-judges/

 

[Harmony 2]

SMK I feel the exact same way as you do. I was completely pro-innocence, but now I am not as sure. And I too am open to guilt.
I think that Amanda not saying Rudy Guede's name could be completely innocent on her part or it could be that she was distancing herself from the crime. I agree with you also that it could have been a "partial truth". It would probably be easily verifiable that she knew of him in my opinion.

Does anyone who is pro innocence have any thoughts on why in a conversation to her mom from jail (that she did not know was being tapped) Amanda said she was worried about a knife they found in Sollecito place? (Paraphrasing). I really would like to hear pro innocence thoughts on this.

Welcome to the discussion!! :seeya:

 

[Jessica2012]

Thank You Harmony2

 

[sherlockh]

This is simply not true. He clearly says ToD was at most 2-3 hours after the meal.

From Massei:

Dr. Lalli specified that death was considered as occurring not more than two to three hours after eating

You may argue as much as you wish that he didn't really meant to say it, but it is the fact, he did the autopsy and he estimated ToD by state of digestion. It's consistent with forensic literature and other experts in court confirmed this view.

Sure, and Guede places the scream around 21-21.30.

You are putting things in my mouth which I have never said, and you do the same with dr Lalli. He never said he says 2-3 hours because of the empty duodenum and that is the problem. The whole theory falls apart when you check the literature on what is a normal time range for gastric emptying to start.

He is completely right to focus on stomach emptying just like all the other experts. Meredith ate till about 7pm, even at 8 pm she still eats. Dr Lalli says 2-3 hours after the meal, he also says 2-4 hours, he also says it depends on many factors such as stress (which there would have been when fighting with Knox), others give other ranges. It all fits with a TOD of around 11pm (IMO between 10:30-11pm) as indicated by several witnesses and accepted by several courts.

 

[SMK]

SMK I feel the exact same way as you do. I was completely pro-innocence, but now I am not as sure. And I too am open to guilt.
I think that Amanda not saying Rudy Guede's name could be completely innocent on her part or it could be that she was distancing herself from the crime. I agree with you also that it could have been a "partial truth". It would probably be easily verifiable that she knew of him in my opinion.

Does anyone who is pro innocence have any thoughts on why in a conversation to her mom from jail (that she did not know was being tapped) Amanda said she was worried about a knife they found in Sollecito place? (Paraphrasing). I really would like to hear pro innocence thoughts on this.

Hi, and :welcome:
I think there are also other questions, such as why Amanda when asked by the postal police for Filomena's number (which she had recently called) gave them instead Meredith's number. And various other questions as to the many calls made the morning of Nov 2 prior to phoning the police. It is all the little questions which can add up to doubt.