Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#12

[otto]

"And so, during this chat with the friend, when he was still abroad, where he had fled after the crime [fatto], Rudy Guede does not implicate in any way Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito as perpetrators of the crime. And in that moment, because he was abroad, and therefore in a certain way safe, or because he was convinced he was conversing just with a friend, perhaps his only real friend, he would not have had any reason to keep quiet on such a matter. Which leads us to believe, being himself, on the contrary, certainly a perpetrator, alone or with others (here it does not matter), of the crimes committed on Via Della Pergola, that if Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito had also participated, he would have in that moment revealed it to his friend.

Nor can one assume that to keep quiet a fact of that kind, even hypothetically, could have been due to a need to distance himself from the suspects to try to avoid finding himself also involved, since, being already aware that in that moment they had already been arrested, he would not have had reason to nurture the hope that, remaining silent during the conversation with the friend, he could in some way affect the legal situation [situazione processuale] of the other two and, so, improve his own personal situation, having reason, on the contrary, to fear that they, if really present with him in Via della Pergola, would have been able, being by now arrested, accuse him and only him of committing the crime in an attempt to exonerate themselves, perhaps recognizing their own presence in that house but nevertheless [asserting] their non-involvement [estraneità] in committing the crime. With the result that he would have had interest in attributing to them, in that chat with the friend, the responsibility for what happened on Via Della Pergola: this is why the Rudy Guede of the chat seems more credible and this is why Rudy not having attributed to them, in the chat, the responsibility for the homicide represents an element of a certain reliability in favor of the current defendants."
From the Hellman report, concerning the letter.

The problem with that reasoning that it came from Hellman, and his ruling was annulled of the basis of being illogical, and of failing to consider the totality of evidence.

 

[SMK]

Something else that has always bothered me is that if he broke into the cottage when no one was home and was in the bathroom when Meredith came home, then his first thought was most likely to get out of there. IIRC, the front door was a double key lock, meaning that Meredith would have locked the entrance with a key. Guede's only exit would have been out the window again, which may not appear as easy as climbing in the window. Additionally, he may have been afraid of drawing her attention (and she would recognize him) as he tried to leave via the window.

If he was stuck in the cottage with Meredith, it probably wouldn't take too long for her to discover him. Meanwhile, he would have taken out his knife in anticipation of defending himself. We know that Meredith's mouth/nose was bruised from a hand suffocating her, or more likely trying to prevent her from screaming. If Meredith was in her room, preparing to study, and Guede sneaked down the hall with his knife, then the minute they saw each other, she would have screamed, and he would have tried to silence her.

He needed her keys to leave the cottage, and indeed the keys were missing. Her bedroom door was locked, and even Guede would have had a reason to delay the discovery of her body.

... finish the thought later ... doorbell

Will you finish this, otto? am curious to know where you are taking this... thanks :waitasec:

 

[otto]

I just want to finish the thought I had upthread ... if we assume that Guede alone was responsible for the murder, that he was in the cottage after entering through the window and that he then found himself locked in the cottage, it makes sense that he had to find the keys to leave the cottage. He, as with anyone responsible for the murder, had good reason to delay the discovery of the body by locking Meredith's door. He also had good reason to take the cell phones in order to prevent her from reporting what had happened (even though she was too far gone to report anything). He also would unlock the front door with the key and have no reason to lock it, as he would assume that the door would remain closed after he left (didn't know that the wind blew it open) and would have good reason to avoid handling the exterior of the door. The unflushed toilet, for Guede, was probably normal, so it wouldn't have occurred to him to flush several times to clean up his mess.

Essentially, the missing keys and unlocked front door do more to support Guede as the culprit than Knox ... in my opinion. That does not, however, explain the other evidence that points to Knox and Sollecito in the crime scene.

 

[SMK]

I just want to finish the thought I had upthread ... if we assume that Guede alone was responsible for the murder, that he was in the cottage after entering through the window and that he then found himself locked in the cottage, it makes sense that he had to find the keys to leave the cottage. He, as with anyone responsible for the murder, had good reason to delay the discovery of the body by locking Meredith's door. He also had good reason to take the cell phones in order to prevent her from reporting what had happened (even though she was too far gone to report anything). He also would unlock the front door with the key and have no reason to lock it, as he would assume that the door would remain closed after he left (didn't know that the wind blew it open) and would have good reason to avoid handling the exterior of the door. The unflushed toilet, for Guede, was probably normal, so it wouldn't have occurred to him to flush several times to clean up his mess.

Essentially, the missing keys and unlocked front door do more to support Guede as the culprit than Knox ... in my opinion. That does not, however, explain the other evidence that points to Knox and Sollecito in the crime scene.

Interesting, and I would agree......Even the covering of Meredith with the duvet may have been at Guede's hands, as the literature will show that it is not an act limited to female offenders, but is known to occur with first time killers, be they male or female. To my thinking, if one wants to entertain the idea of guilt, no good comes from sweeping any information under the rug....

This is why I am careful to make sure of those things which fall under the "lone wolf " column, and those which fall under the "rudy with Knox and Sollectio/prank gone wrong" column:

• Guede did do break-ins,
• he did enter windows via a rock (as many robbers do),
• he did take and use knives (again, common);
• he was acquainted with Giacomo (who I would agree with others was unworthy of MK, used her, and spoke to others about intimate things she would never have wanted discussed, possibly planting ideas in Rudy's mind).
• He may have known the place would be empty due to the holiday weekend. He may have been looking for cash or pot.
• Add to this, the locked door and duvet may be his work alone.

For some of us, who have decided to leave open the possibility of involvement by Knox and Sollecito, the question remains, then:

Do Knox, Sollecito, prank-gone-wrong fit in in a realistic and plausible way?

• Knox and the prank admission
• overcalling on the morning of Nov 2
• Giving postal police MK's number when they had asked for Filomena's
• the email home - very suspect language
• Sollecito 112 calls, alibis?
• the pre-dawn call to mother
• the witness Quintavalle
• accusation of PL
• the staged burglary? clean up? forensics?

will finish later...........ETA: My strongest intuition still falls on the side of some involvement of Knox and Sollecito, while admitting the lone wolf theory is compelling in its features......

 

[otto]

Interesting, and I would agree......Even the covering of Meredith with the duvet may have been at Guede's hands, as the literature will show that it is not an act limited to female offenders, but is known to occur with first time killers, be they male or female. To my thinking, if one wants to entertain the idea of guilt, no good comes from sweeping any information under the rug....

This is why I am careful to make sure of those things which fall under the "lone wolf " column, and those which fall under the "rudy with Knox and Sollectio/prank gone wrong" column:

• Guede did do break-ins,
• he did enter windows via a rock (as many robbers do),
• he did take and use knives (again, common);
• he was acquainted with Giacomo (who I would agree with others was unworthy of MK, used her, and spoke to others about intimate things she would never have wanted discussed, possibly planting ideas in Rudy's mind).
• He may have known the place would be empty due to the holiday weekend. He may have been looking for cash or pot.
• Add to this, the locked door and duvet may be his work alone.

For some of us, who have decided to leave open the possibility of involvement by Knox and Sollecito, the question remains, then:

Do Knox, Sollecito, prank-gone-wrong fit in in a realistic and plausible way?

• Knox and the prank admission
• overcalling on the morning of Nov 2
• Giving postal police MK's number when they had asked for Filomena's
• the email home - very suspect language
• Sollecito 112 calls, alibis?
• the pre-dawn call to mother
• the witness Quintavalle
• accusation of PL
• the staged burglary? clean up? forensics?

will finish later...........ETA: My strongest intuition still falls on the side of some involvement of Knox and Sollecito, while admitting the lone wolf theory is compelling in its features......

I get stuck on Sollecito's print on the bathmat and his DNA on the bra clasp. I can set aside the bathmat, but the DNA on the clasp is very difficult to explain. Balding analyzed the bra clasp evidence and, although he stated that the initial findings indicated there could be four male contributors, he also concluded 100% that Sollecito's DNA was on the clasp. This conclusion is consistent with the findings of other experts.

If Sollecito did not touch the bra at the time of the murder, how did it get there? Was he handling Meredith's underwear when he was at the cottage with Knox (he was only there 2-3 times in total)? That would be abnormal, but Sollecito does have abnormal sexual interests. Contamination in the lab has been ruled out. Contamination at the cottage is possible only if there is an explanation for where his DNA came from before it was put on the bra clasp. That is where the contamination theory breaks down, because there is no where in Meredith's bedroom that his DNA could have orginated, as he never had a good reason to be there. Balding states that it is highly unlikely, and could be excluded, that the DNA was picked up in some other part of the cottage and put on the clasp in Meredith's bedroom. Crini cited Balding during his arguments, so the court will look at Balding's conclusions. They might even look at the interview that Balding gave to one of Knox's supporters and which is posted on a blog ... where he comments on the unlikelihood of DNA being transferred from some other unknown part of the cottage to the bedroom and onto the clasp.

 

[quesarita]

Interesting, and I would agree......Even the covering of Meredith with the duvet may have been at Guede's hands, as the literature will show that it is not an act limited to female offenders, but is known to occur with first time killers, be they male or female. To my thinking, if one wants to entertain the idea of guilt, no good comes from sweeping any information under the rug....

This is why I am careful to make sure of those things which fall under the "lone wolf " column, and those which fall under the "rudy with Knox and Sollectio/prank gone wrong" column:

• Guede did do break-ins,
• he did enter windows via a rock (as many robbers do),
• he did take and use knives (again, common);
• he was acquainted with Giacomo (who I would agree with others was unworthy of MK, used her, and spoke to others about intimate things she would never have wanted discussed, possibly planting ideas in Rudy's mind).
• He may have known the place would be empty due to the holiday weekend. He may have been looking for cash or pot.
• Add to this, the locked door and duvet may be his work alone.

For some of us, who have decided to leave open the possibility of involvement by Knox and Sollecito, the question remains, then:

Do Knox, Sollecito, prank-gone-wrong fit in in a realistic and plausible way?

• Knox and the prank admission
• overcalling on the morning of Nov 2
• Giving postal police MK's number when they had asked for Filomena's
• the email home - very suspect language
• Sollecito 112 calls, alibis?
• the pre-dawn call to mother
• the witness Quintavalle
• accusation of PL
• the staged burglary? clean up? forensics?

will finish later...........ETA: My strongest intuition still falls on the side of some involvement of Knox and Sollecito, while admitting the lone wolf theory is compelling in its features......

Question: if the break-in was NOT staged and was in fact how Rudy got in, what is the relevance of Amanda admitting to staging a burglary several years before?

 

[quesarita]

I get stuck on Sollecito's print on the bathmat and his DNA on the bra clasp. I can set aside the bathmat, but the DNA on the clasp is very difficult to explain. Balding analyzed the bra clasp evidence and, although he stated that the initial findings indicated there could be four male contributors, he also concluded 100% that Sollecito's DNA was on the clasp. This conclusion is consistent with the findings of other experts.

If Sollecito did not touch the bra at the time of the murder, how did it get there? Was he handling Meredith's underwear when he was at the cottage with Knox (he was only there 2-3 times in total)? That would be abnormal, but Sollecito does have abnormal sexual interests. Contamination in the lab has been ruled out. Contamination at the cottage is possible only if there is an explanation for where his DNA came from before it was put on the bra clasp. That is where the contamination theory breaks down, because there is no where in Meredith's bedroom that his DNA could have orginated, as he never had a good reason to be there. Balding states that it is highly unlikely, and could be excluded, that the DNA was picked up in some other part of the cottage and put on the clasp in Meredith's bedroom. Crini cited Balding during his arguments, so the court will look at Balding's conclusions. They might even look at the interview that Balding gave to one of Knox's supporters and which is posted on a blog ... where he comments on the unlikelihood of DNA being transferred from some other unknown part of the cottage to the bedroom and onto the clasp.

If they found dna from 4 male contributors, they should have tested that against the dna of all the male investigators and friends in the cottage from the morning after the murder until they collected the clasp. If anyone else from that list tested positive on the clasp, contamination would be confirmed. To not try and identify the other contributors is not right.

 

[otto]

Question: if the break-in was NOT staged and was in fact how Rudy got in, what is the relevance of Amanda admitting to staging a burglary several years before?

It's seems to me that Knox's history of a staged burglary supports her guilt, not Guede's guilt. If Knox is not guilty, tt becomes an unfortunate coincidence that Knox liked to torment people with pranks, such as a staged burglary and home invasion, and that is exactly what happened to her roommate. It is also an unfortunate coincidence that Meredith's DNA is on the knife in Sollecito's apartment, that Sollecito has produced two absurd explanations for that DNA, that Sollecito's foot is the correct length and width for the bathmat print, that Knox lied about her activities on the night of the murder, that Knox implicated an innocent man in the murder, and so much more ... an awful lot of unfortunate circumstances for Knox and Sollecito.

 

[otto]

If they found dna from 4 male contributors, they should have tested that against the dna of all the male investigators and friends in the cottage from the morning after the murder until they collected the clasp. If anyone else from that list tested positive on the clasp, contamination would be confirmed. To not try and identify the other contributors is not right.

Investigators were looking for DNA that matched known suspects. That is how it always works. Without a suspect, there's no one to compare the DNA to. Furthermore, Balding states that at the outset of examining the DNA, there appeared to be four male contributors. After completing the analysis, it could be concluded 100% that Sollecito is a contributor. If there are other suspects, then whatever else was found could be compared to them. Are there any other suspects? Should every male in Perugia be rounded up for comparison?

 

[quesarita]

It's seems to me that Knox's history of a staged burglary supports her guilt, not Guede's guilt. If Knox is not guilty, tt becomes an unfortunate coincidence that Knox liked to torment people with pranks, such as a staged burglary and home invasion, and that is exactly what happened to her roommate. It is also an unfortunate coincidence that Meredith's DNA is on the knife in Sollecito's apartment, that Sollecito has produced two absurd explanations for that DNA, that Sollecito's foot is the correct length and width for the bathmat print, that Knox lied about her activities on the night of the murder, that Knox implicated an innocent man in the murder, and so much more ... an awful lot of unfortunate circumstances for Knox and Sollecito.

You exaggerate needlessly when you say home invasion, which is very different from a staged burglary.

 

[otto]

You exaggerate needlessly when you say home invasion, which is very different from a staged burglary.

That wasn't my intention. I understood the prank included a staged burglary and that Knox and a couple of friends wore disguises as they confronted the female roommate in her bedroom. My understanding was that the roommate was tremendously upset and did not see any humor in the staged burglary and, what I would call a staged "home invasion".

 

[SMK]

I get stuck on Sollecito's print on the bathmat and his DNA on the bra clasp. I can set aside the bathmat, but the DNA on the clasp is very difficult to explain. Balding analyzed the bra clasp evidence and, although he stated that the initial findings indicated there could be four male contributors, he also concluded 100% that Sollecito's DNA was on the clasp. This conclusion is consistent with the findings of other experts.

If Sollecito did not touch the bra at the time of the murder, how did it get there? Was he handling Meredith's underwear when he was at the cottage with Knox (he was only there 2-3 times in total)? That would be abnormal, but Sollecito does have abnormal sexual interests. Contamination in the lab has been ruled out. Contamination at the cottage is possible only if there is an explanation for where his DNA came from before it was put on the bra clasp. That is where the contamination theory breaks down, because there is no where in Meredith's bedroom that his DNA could have orginated, as he never had a good reason to be there. Balding states that it is highly unlikely, and could be excluded, that the DNA was picked up in some other part of the cottage and put on the clasp in Meredith's bedroom. Crini cited Balding during his arguments, so the court will look at Balding's conclusions. They might even look at the interview that Balding gave to one of Knox's supporters and which is posted on a blog ... where he comments on the unlikelihood of DNA being transferred from some other unknown part of the cottage to the bedroom and onto the clasp.

Yes, I agree absolutely, it is extremely difficult/actually nearly impossible to get around the bra clasp. The bathmat remains a question mark....

 

[quesarita]

That wasn't my intention. I understood the prank included a staged burglary and that Knox and a couple of friends wore disguises as they confronted the female roommate in her bedroom. My understanding was that the roommate was tremendously upset and did not see any humor in the staged burglary and, what I would call a staged "home invasion".

And my reading was that items were hidden, moved around to be discovered when the roommate(s) and Amanda came home, and that specifically, "Costumes of any kind were not a part of the prank."

 

[SMK]

@Otto: I believe Knox's attorneys asked her if she had ever borrowed Meredith's bra, or washed her own with it to try and explain the clasp dna.

 

[otto]

And my reading was that items were hidden, moved around to be discovered when the roommate(s) and Amanda came home, and that specifically, "Costumes of any kind were not a part of the prank."

Today, Knox claims that disguises were not used. At the time that this information first surfaced (information that was repeatedly denied by the PR Firm and supporters of Knox for six years) disguises were used. I'm inclined to believe that victim's report in this case.

 

[quesarita]

@Otto: I believe Knox's attorneys asked her if she had ever borrowed Meredith's bra, or washed her own with it to try and explain the clasp dna.

If dna from four different men was found on my bra clasp, I would want to know who ALL of them were.

 

[otto]

@Otto: I believe Knox's attorneys asked her if she had ever borrowed Meredith's bra, or washed her own with it to try and explain the clasp dna.

She was given an out, but borrowing underwear? That strikes me as bizarre, especially given Knox's "free-sex" (or whatever it's called) attitude.

 

[quesarita]

Today, Knox claims that disguises were not used. At the time that this information first surfaced (information that was repeatedly denied by the PR Firm and supporters of Knox for six years) disguises were used. I'm inclined to believe that victim's report in this case.

Except that the report did not come from the "victim" herself, but someone else.

 

[SMK]

Question: if the break-in was NOT staged and was in fact how Rudy got in, what is the relevance of Amanda admitting to staging a burglary several years before?

The only way there could still be a connection, is if she had alerted Guede - as some believe she did - to the fact the MK would be alone, and it would be an ideal time to have a half-real/half-pseudo break-in. Please remember that I am trying to piece this together in earnest as per certain suspicions about Knox and Sollecito on Nov 2 - I could be wrong and if proven wrong will admit it and accept it. Until then, just brainstorming.....

 

[otto]

If dna from four different men was found on my bra clasp, I would want to know who ALL of them were.

I suggest that you read the Balding report to better understand the reference to four male contributors in context. That is only a part of the analysis, not the conclusion. Halkides would have the report, and I linked it several times around the end of November after Crini referenced Peter Balding's report. He's a scientist from the UK that was asked to evaluate the clasp analysis.

If you are unable to find it, I can look for it later, but if I don't get some work done now, I'll be living in a cardboard box next month.