Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#12

[SMK]

She was given an out, but borrowing underwear? That strikes me as bizarre, especially given Knox's "free-sex" (or whatever it's called) attitude.

I don't believe Knox ever borrowed Meredith's bra. I don't think Meredith would lend it, and there would be no reason for Knox to need it. Laundering them together is a possibility, although how that would effect dna is beyond my scope....

 

[SMK]

Except that the report did not come from the "victim" herself, but someone else.

What WAS the source of the original story? And what made Amanda feel the need to explain it now, on her blog?

 

[aa9511]

I just want to finish the thought I had upthread ... if we assume that Guede alone was responsible for the murder, that he was in the cottage after entering through the window and that he then found himself locked in the cottage, it makes sense that he had to find the keys to leave the cottage. He, as with anyone responsible for the murder, had good reason to delay the discovery of the body by locking Meredith's door. He also had good reason to take the cell phones in order to prevent her from reporting what had happened (even though she was too far gone to report anything). He also would unlock the front door with the key and have no reason to lock it, as he would assume that the door would remain closed after he left (didn't know that the wind blew it open) and would have good reason to avoid handling the exterior of the door. The unflushed toilet, for Guede, was probably normal, so it wouldn't have occurred to him to flush several times to clean up his mess.

Essentially, the missing keys and unlocked front door do more to support Guede as the culprit than Knox ... in my opinion. That does not, however, explain the other evidence that points to Knox and Sollecito in the crime scene.

I don't think it supports Guede more than Amanda and RS. For several reasons:

1. Why would he need delay of discovery? The delay of discovery seems more to me that someone who was close to the suspect would do that, as they would be "on the radar" as soon as the body is discovered. Rudy was random and not connected to Meredith.
2. Taking the keys is indicative of some planning and thought after the murder occured. It does not seem to me like Rudy thought about anything or planned any delay of cover-up....as he didn't take any other steps that we know of to cover his tracks.
3. We have no footprints indicating going back and forth to the door....as in the first time, maybe he didn't think about it, then he decided to get the keys and lock it, that means there would have been some footrprints going back and forth from door to purse and back to door. Otherwise, he would have had to immediately think of the door. I just don't see any kind of other forethought or planning with respect to him in the murder.
4. I do not see how Meredith could have missed seeing him before she got to her room. I have laid out several scenarios before of Rudy in different places when she first walks in the house, and of the lighting in the house, and I don't think she would have not noticed him and been able to make it all the way to her room. And let's say she did notice him, he gets him knife out and holds it at her throat and threatens her.....why would he threaten her to "go to her room"? What is the point of going all the way to Meredith's room? The assault would have began outside of her bedroom.

Those are just some reasons I have thought of, there are probably more but this is what I think of right now.

 

[quesarita]

I don't think it supports Guede more than Amanda and RS. For several reasons:

1. Why would he need delay of discovery? The delay of discovery seems more to me that someone who was close to the suspect would do that, as they would be "on the radar" as soon as the body is discovered. Rudy was random and not connected to Meredith.
2. Taking the keys is indicative of some planning and thought after the murder occured. It does not seem to me like Rudy thought about anything or planned any delay of cover-up....as he didn't take any other steps that we know of to cover his tracks.
3. We have no footprints indicating going back and forth to the door....as in the first time, maybe he didn't think about it, then he decided to get the keys and lock it, that means there would have been some footrprints going back and forth from door to purse and back to door. Otherwise, he would have had to immediately think of the door. I just don't see any kind of other forethought or planning with respect to him in the murder.
4. I do not see how Meredith could have missed seeing him before she got to her room. I have laid out several scenarios before of Rudy in different places when she first walks in the house, and of the lighting in the house, and I don't think she would have not noticed him and been able to make it all the way to her room. And let's say she did notice him, he gets him knife out and holds it at her throat and threatens her.....why would he threaten her to "go to her room"? What is the point of going all the way to Meredith's room? The assault would have began outside of her bedroom.

Those are just some reasons I have thought of, there are probably more but this is what I think of right now.

I thought Ottos's point that Rudy needed the keys to get out the front door was an excellent one, and points to the fact that after the murder, the only front door key in the house was Meredith's.

 

[SMK]

I don't think it supports Guede more than Amanda and RS. For several reasons:

1. Why would he need delay of discovery? The delay of discovery seems more to me that someone who was close to the suspect would do that, as they would be "on the radar" as soon as the body is discovered. Rudy was random and not connected to Meredith.
2. Taking the keys is indicative of some planning and thought after the murder occured. It does not seem to me like Rudy thought about anything or planned any delay of cover-up....as he didn't take any other steps that we know of to cover his tracks.
3. We have no footprints indicating going back and forth to the door....as in the first time, maybe he didn't think about it, then he decided to get the keys and lock it, that means there would have been some footrprints going back and forth from door to purse and back to door. Otherwise, he would have had to immediately think of the door. I just don't see any kind of other forethought or planning with respect to him in the murder.
4. I do not see how Meredith could have missed seeing him before she got to her room. I have laid out several scenarios before of Rudy in different places when she first walks in the house, and of the lighting in the house, and I don't think she would have not noticed him and been able to make it all the way to her room. And let's say she did notice him, he gets him knife out and holds it at her throat and threatens her.....why would he threaten her to "go to her room"? What is the point of going all the way to Meredith's room? The assault would have began outside of her bedroom.

Those are just some reasons I have thought of, there are probably more but this is what I think of right now.

Some very good points.

I do think, though, that Rudy - because he knew Giacamo, supplied the guys with drugs, often partied with them, and had flirted with both AK and MK - did feel less than random. He had a close connection with the cottage, and may have been paranoid about being suspected right away (as it is, he left plenty of evidence).

I think if he was planning to rape Meredith, it would make sense to go to her bedroom. If she hadn't fought and tried to escape (and there are indications that she did) he may have been planning to conduct a full rape on the bed.

Just some observations, but you make some excellent points.

 

[Harmony 2]

Guys I am sorry but posting comments from another site or from an article is not allowed. Would you like your posts and comments from here taken somewhere else without your permission? Besides there is no way to verify who that poster is, I can say I am Dustin Hoffman the actor and post all over, doesn't make it true.

 

[otto]

Here is the link to David Balding's report:

http://www.pnas.org/content/110/30/12241.full?sid=a253ef82-c033-47a6-8d9b-c5abfbd8c926

 

[quesarita]

Here is the link to David Balding's report:

http://www.pnas.org/content/110/30/12241.full?sid=a253ef82-c033-47a6-8d9b-c5abfbd8c926

So, in summary, he is sure Knox did not contribute DNA to the clasp, and pretty sure there are 2 other contributors beside Sollecito. I still maintain they should have cleared those 2 profiles against all the other males known to be in the cottage from the morning after the murder until the clasp was collected. I'm aware that's a significant number of people who may not have wanted to contribute DNA for testing, but that's what it would take to convince me sollecitos DNA could only have gotten on the clasp by him putting his hands on it.

 

[otto]

I don't think it supports Guede more than Amanda and RS. For several reasons:

1. Why would he need delay of discovery? The delay of discovery seems more to me that someone who was close to the suspect would do that, as they would be "on the radar" as soon as the body is discovered. Rudy was random and not connected to Meredith.
2. Taking the keys is indicative of some planning and thought after the murder occured. It does not seem to me like Rudy thought about anything or planned any delay of cover-up....as he didn't take any other steps that we know of to cover his tracks.
3. We have no footprints indicating going back and forth to the door....as in the first time, maybe he didn't think about it, then he decided to get the keys and lock it, that means there would have been some footrprints going back and forth from door to purse and back to door. Otherwise, he would have had to immediately think of the door. I just don't see any kind of other forethought or planning with respect to him in the murder.
4. I do not see how Meredith could have missed seeing him before she got to her room. I have laid out several scenarios before of Rudy in different places when she first walks in the house, and of the lighting in the house, and I don't think she would have not noticed him and been able to make it all the way to her room. And let's say she did notice him, he gets him knife out and holds it at her throat and threatens her.....why would he threaten her to "go to her room"? What is the point of going all the way to Meredith's room? The assault would have began outside of her bedroom.

Those are just some reasons I have thought of, there are probably more but this is what I think of right now.

I have long believed that Knox, Guede and Sollecito were involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher. I didn't start with that assumption and then attempt to wrap the evidence into that belief, but rather started with the assumption that anything was possible. It was after several months of watching the evidence as it was revealed that I came to that conclusion. Nothing has convinced me to change my mind, however, I am interested in sometimes seeing how the evidence fits if Knox and Sollecito are excluded.

If Guede did throw a rock through the window, scale the wall and enter through the window, and problems with that scenario are set aside, then it is also possible that Guede would cover Meredith's body, lock her bedroom door and leave the front door unlocked. It is equally possible that Knox would throw a duvet over Meredith, lock her door and leave the front door unlocked.

 

[otto]

So, in summary, he is sure Knox did not contribute DNA to the clasp, and pretty sure there are 2 other contributors beside Sollecito. I still maintain they should have cleared those 2 profiles against all the other males known to be in the cottage from the morning after the murder until the clasp was collected. I'm aware that's a significant number of people who may not have wanted to contribute DNA for testing, but that's what it would take to convince me sollecitos DNA could only have gotten on the clasp by him putting his hands on it.

Sometimes, DNA is found at a crime scene. Unless a suspect has been identified, or that DNA is on file somewhere, the DNA is basically useless. I don't think it is reasonable to expect that all males in a particular location should provide DNA samples because DNA has been found and police can't identify the source.

I can't think of any case in the US where everyone that participates in a criminal investigation, or who has visited a particular location, is obligated to provide a DNA sample to help police identify DNA that is found at the crime scene. I don't think that should happen in Italy either.

Other than direct contact between Sollecito and the clasp, what other reasonable explanation is there for his DNA to be there? Contamination in the lab has been ruled out in part due to the length of time between testing related to Sollecito and testing of the clasp. There were also other reason that lab contamination was ruled out. What reasonable explanation is there for contamination at the cottage, regardless of whether the clasp was collected on Dec 18 or Nov 2? Where did it come from and how did it get onto the clasp in Meredith's bedroom?

 

[SMK]

I have long believed that Knox, Guede and Sollecito were involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher. I didn't start with that assumption and then attempt to wrap the evidence into that belief, but rather started with the assumption that anything was possible. It was after several months of watching the evidence as it was revealed that I came to that conclusion. Nothing has convinced me to change my mind, however, I am interested in sometimes seeing how the evidence fits if Knox and Sollecito are excluded.

If Guede did throw a rock through the window, scale the wall and enter through the window, and problems with that scenario are set aside, then it is also possible that Guede would cover Meredith's body, lock her bedroom door and leave the front door unlocked. It is equally possible that Knox would throw a duvet over Meredith, lock her door and leave the front door unlocked.

bbm - Yes, I agree fully. I have long felt that although it is possible that Guede did certain acts alone, or even that he did all acts alone, it is not necessarily the truth , and there is something compelling about Knox and Sollecito's involvement, for reasons I have stated many times.

 

[otto]

bbm - Yes, I agree fully. I have long felt that although it is possible that Guede did certain acts alone, or even that he did all acts alone, it is not necessarily the truth , and there is something compelling about Knox and Sollecito's involvement, for reasons I have stated many times.

I have tried to run with the Guede Did It scenario, but there are always questions that don't have answers within that scenario.

 

[Amber29]

I just want to finish the thought I had upthread ... if we assume that Guede alone was responsible for the murder, that he was in the cottage after entering through the window and that he then found himself locked in the cottage, it makes sense that he had to find the keys to leave the cottage. He, as with anyone responsible for the murder, had good reason to delay the discovery of the body by locking Meredith's door. He also had good reason to take the cell phones in order to prevent her from reporting what had happened (even though she was too far gone to report anything). He also would unlock the front door with the key and have no reason to lock it, as he would assume that the door would remain closed after he left (didn't know that the wind blew it open) and would have good reason to avoid handling the exterior of the door. The unflushed toilet, for Guede, was probably normal, so it wouldn't have occurred to him to flush several times to clean up his mess.

Essentially, the missing keys and unlocked front door do more to support Guede as the culprit than Knox ... in my opinion. That does not, however, explain the other evidence that points to Knox and Sollecito in the crime scene.

I actually disagree with this. I think dropping out of a window would be alot easier then climbing up and into it.

I see Meredith's locked door as strong support as proof of someone else besides Guede. Personally I find it odd he took the time to lock Meredith's door to delay the body being found because once the burglary is discovered every door would be opened, it wouldnt be delayed much longer then the broken window being discovered. Shutting her door I could understand but locking it makes it more suspicious with a clear breaking and entering.

Also the cell phones Meredith was covered with a duvet she was clearly not alive when a "lone wolf" left her, so why would he take her phones only to throw them away? Also there are no bloody prints of RG locking Meredith's door and no evidence he walked back to lock it from the front door as has been suggested.

 

[quesarita]

Sometimes, DNA is found at a crime scene. Unless a suspect has been identified, or that DNA is on file somewhere, the DNA is basically useless. I don't think it is reasonable to expect that all males in a particular location should provide DNA samples because DNA has been found and police can't identify the source.

I can't think of any case in the US where everyone that participates in a criminal investigation, or who has visited a particular location, is obligated to provide a DNA sample to help police identify DNA that is found at the crime scene. I don't think that should happen in Italy either.

Other than direct contact between Sollecito and the clasp, what other reasonable explanation is there for his DNA to be there? Contamination in the lab has been ruled out in part due to the length of time between testing related to Sollecito and testing of the clasp. There were also other reason that lab contamination was ruled out. What reasonable explanation is there for contamination at the cottage, regardless of whether the clasp was collected on Dec 18 or Nov 2? Where did it come from and how did it get onto the clasp in Meredith's bedroom?

This is surely not a typical investigation, though? The police collect their evidence, find a palm print, dna and shoe prints that match one person. They arrest him, and after several more weeks go by during which Rudy confoundingly does NOT give them the information they need to prosecute two of the people they previously arrested, THEN they go back to the crime scene and collect more evidence.

 

[SMK]

I have tried to run with the Guede Did It scenario, but there are always questions that don't have answers within that scenario.

Agreed, fully - too many questions without answers - and it leaves something hanging (especially Nov 2).

 

[SMK]

I actually disagree with this. I think dropping out of a window would be alot easier then climbing up and into it.

I see Meredith's locked door as strong support as proof of someone else besides Guede. Personally I find it odd he took the time to lock Meredith's door to delay the body being found because once the burglary is discovered every door would be opened, it wouldnt be delayed much longer then the broken window being discovered. Shutting her door I could understand but locking it makes it more suspicious with a clear breaking and entering.

Also the cell phones Meredith was covered with a duvet she was clearly not alive when a "lone wolf" left her, so why would he take her phones only to throw them away? Also there are no bloody prints of RG locking Meredith's door and no evidence he walked back to lock it from the front door as has been suggested.

Understood. But Guede may have wanted to lock the door to prevent Meredith from crawling for help - he knew she was dying but possibly alive when he left her. The cell phones he may have taken to sell, and then thought better of it: He didn't want them traced to him in any way. He may have taken them to be assured Meredith could not call for help and identify him, but then if they rang, he may have become frightened and thrown them in the ravine, near his apt. where he went to change clothes.

 

[otto]

This is surely not a typical investigation, though? The police collect their evidence, find a palm print, dna and shoe prints that match one person. They arrest him, and after several more weeks go by during which Rudy confoundingly does NOT give them the information they need to prosecute two of the people they previously arrested, THEN they go back to the crime scene and collect more evidence.

I think this is a typical murder investigation. The only thing that makes it interesting in forums is that it's a multicultural murder where a victim from England was murdered in Italy by an Italian man, an American woman, and a man born in Africa but raised in Italy. I suspect that the only reason people in the US are interested in the murder of a British student is because the accused is one of their own ... and that sure doesn't seem to sit well with people. Women that murder in the US rarely gain the type of support given to the woman that murdered in another country.

When Michelle Young was murdered, police returned to the scene of the crime two years after the murder to collect more evidence. Although she was found in the bedroom, no one ever suggested that the bedroom alone was the scene of the crime. That was in North Carolina. Forty five days is nothing compared to what police do in the US. In the trial of Jason Young, the judge put forth that there may be a second party involved in the murder, but Jason sure didn't tell anyone who that may be.

 

[Amber29]

Understood. But Guede may have wanted to lock the door to prevent Meredith from crawling for help - he knew she was dying but possibly alive when he left her. The cell phones he may have taken to sell, and then thought better of it: He didn't want them traced to him in any way. He may have taken them to be assured Meredith could not call for help and identify him, but then if they rang, he may have become frightened and thrown them in the ravine, near his apt. where he went to change clothes.

Yes i can see your point. IMO she was covered with a duvet, I think it was clear to whoever covered her that she was going no where and they didn't want to look at her.

 

[SMK]

Yes i can see your point. IMO she was covered with a duvet, I think it was clear to whoever covered her that she was going no where and they didn't want to look at her.

OK, yes, they may have wanted to just close the murder off from their view, understandably. It might well have been Amanda (and I have often thought it was ) but it might also have been Guede (Neil Entwistle killed his American wife and 9 month old baby and covered them with a quilt).

I think whoever covered Meredith with the duvet and locked the door are one and the same person. Of course, Amanda's lamp there makes me think it may have been her......

 

[otto]

OK, yes, they may have wanted to just close the murder off from their view, understandably. It might well have been Amanda (and I have often thought it was ) but it might also have been Guede (Neil Entwistle killed his American wife and 9 month old baby and covered them with a quilt).

I think whoever covered Meredith with the duvet and locked the door are one and the same person. Of course, Amanda's lamp there makes me think it may have been her......

That lamp is certainly problematic in the Guede Did It scenario.