Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#12

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  • #761
I think what irks me about the articles I have been reading saying that Secretary of State John Kerry might deny extradition due to his being a former prosecutor (on the "double jeopardy" issue) is that this is not rooted in fact or reality.

The US knew the Italian system before it signed on to an International Extradition Treaty.

I mean, if Knox is innocent and had been railroaded, of course she should not be extradited. And if she is being prosecuted under false information, then yes, she should get the State Department's help.

But has this really been proven? And if she is culpable, it would seem unfair for her to remain a free citizen in the US, if she took part in a killing in Perugia.

Although the internet and forums are full of complaints against every level of the Italian justice system, that does not mean they are valid complaints. My understanding is that an extradition would require that trial summaries are translated to English and submitted as part of the extradition request. Knox might be busy doing her own versions of the translations so that she can confront those summaries, but her translations cannot be objective. The trial summaries will be reviewed and a decision would be made. If the Italian court reasoning is logical and comprehensive, I see no reason why an extradition request would be denied. Alternatively, Knox might prefer a US prison and there may be an option for her to serve her sentence in the US.

If Knox is found guilty and the US takes the position that she should not be extradited, it would also send a message to the international community that when one of their own is convicted of murder on foreign soil, the US will do nothing to ensure that justice is done. It will also send a message to people from the US that if they want to get away with murder, do it on foreign soil and get home fast before being arrested.

The bottom line is that although the article you linked states that the decision has already been made, that cannot be true because the request has not yet been made.
 
  • #762
Although the internet and forums are full of complaints against every level of the Italian justice system, that does not mean they are valid complaints. My understanding is that an extradition would require that trial summaries are translated to English and submitted as part of the extradition request. Knox might be busy doing her own versions of the translations so that she can confront those summaries, but her translations cannot be objective. The trial summaries will be reviewed and a decision would be made. If the Italian court reasoning is logical and comprehensive, I see no reason why an extradition request would be denied. Alternatively, Knox might prefer a US prison and there may be an option for her to serve her sentence in the US.

If Knox is found guilty and the US takes the position that she should not be extradited, it would also send a message to the international community that when one of their own is convicted of murder on foreign soil, the US will do nothing to ensure that justice is done. It will also send a message to people from the US that if they want to get away with murder, do it on foreign soil and get home fast before being arrested.

The bottom line is that although the article you linked states that the decision has already been made, that cannot be true because the request has not yet been made.
Thanks - yes, agreed. And you're right: How can the State Department have voiced their position prior to any request being made on the part of Italy? Bad journalism. No fact checking in that piece. :mad:
 
  • #763
Thanks - yes, agreed. And you're right: How can the State Department have voiced their position prior to any request being made on the part of Italy? Bad journalism. No fact checking in that piece. :mad:

Reminds me of the bad journalism that has taken place by a certain someone that is often quoted here. When a journalist makes a claim that can be found no where else, it is clearly questionable. For instance, the claim that Amanda's lawyers wanted her to be in Italy and in court for this latest trial and that she ignored her lawyers request/advice.

moo
 
  • #764
Reminds me of the bad journalism that has taken place by a certain someone that is often quoted here. When a journalist makes a claim that can be found no where else, it is clearly questionable. For instance, the claim that Amanda's lawyers wanted her to be in Italy and in court for this latest trial and that she ignored her lawyers request/advice.

moo
You mean Nadeau? Well, if not true, she shouldn't have said that. One used to be able to trust journalists :(
 
  • #765
Thanks.

You're right: Why would her case be an exception? It is not a political case, but a criminal one.

And I really cannot imagine that the State Department would make a decision and not publish it. And the Hellmann appeal was an overturning of Massei, yet no one in the US considered this to violate "double jeopardy".

BBM

Why would anyone in the US consider the Hellman appeal to violate double jeaopardy? We are allowed in the US to appeal cases. This is what was done with AK and RS. Their original conviction was appealed and was overturned. In the US that would be the end of it. However, they are now going after AK and RS yet again. This is where the double jeopardy comes into play here in the US. If the court had upheld the original conviction instead of overturning it during the appeal, then no other action would be taken. Same goes for here in the US.
 
  • #766
You mean Nadeau? Well, if not true, she shouldn't have said that. One used to be able to trust journalists :(

Actually I wasn't refering to her. I was refering to an article that was linked to here from Vought or however her name is spelled. I checked numerous sources on line even using Amanda's lawyers name and could find nothing, other than her article, where it was said by the lawyer that Amanda defied their request.
 
  • #767
Actually I wasn't refering to her. I was refering to an article that was linked to here from Vought or however her name is spelled. I checked numerous sources on line even using Amanda's lawyers name and could find nothing, other than her article, where it was said by the lawyer that Amanda defied their request.
Oh, OK - I confused Nadeau with Andrea Vogt. My bad.
 
  • #768
BBM

Why would anyone in the US consider the Hellman appeal to violate double jeaopardy? We are allowed in the US to appeal cases. This is what was done with AK and RS. Their original conviction was appealed and was overturned. In the US that would be the end of it. However, they are now going after AK and RS yet again. This is where the double jeopardy comes into play here in the US. If the court had upheld the original conviction instead of overturning it during the appeal, then no other action would be taken. Same goes for here in the US.
Yes, in the US that would be the end of it. But Italy has its own judicial system - such as they do not give the death penalty and we do here, etc.

As far as the provisional rulings and 3 phase system they have in Italy:

I thought the Hellmann appeal was a part of this 3 phase system, and automatic - not like here where an appeal must prove the prior trial had serious errors, and may or may not be granted. Well, why are they calling this one a retrial and not just another phase of the appeals process?
 
  • #769
Yes, in the US that would be the end of it. But Italy has its own judicial system - such as they do not give the death penalty and we do here, etc.

As far as the provisional rulings and 3 phase system they have in Italy:

I thought the Hellmann appeal was a part of this 3 phase system, and automatic - not like here where an appeal must prove the prior trial had serious errors, and may or may not be granted. Well, why are they calling this one a retrial and not just another phase of the appeals process?

No idea why Italy is doing what it is doing. It is my understanding that this process could go on indefinately. If Ak and RS are not found guilty this time, then the lawyers (what we call prosecutors here) could appeal yet again. So how long will this continue until it said that enough is enough? Will Italy be happy only when AK and RS are found guilty without it being appealed in their favor? There has to be a line drawn somewhere.

MOO
 
  • #770
No idea why Italy is doing what it is doing. It is my understanding that this process could go on indefinately. If Ak and RS are not found guilty this time, then the lawyers (what we call prosecutors here) could appeal yet again. So how long will this continue until it said that enough is enough? Will Italy be happy only when AK and RS are found guilty without it being appealed in their favor? There has to be a line drawn somewhere.

MOO
I think their system does draw a line, with the Supreme Court of Cassation. They have to approve a ruling finally within the process, and then it is over.

Recall that the Hellmann verdict could have simply been rubber-stamped and approved in March 2013. Had it been upheld , it would have been over. Knox and Sollecito would have been finally and fully acquitted, had their books and their freedom, and moved on.

But for some reason, the Supreme Court of Cassation decided not only to overturn Hellmann, but to annul him altogether. This is why we are where we are today.

 
  • #771
No idea why Italy is doing what it is doing. It is my understanding that this process could go on indefinately. If Ak and RS are not found guilty this time, then the lawyers (what we call prosecutors here) could appeal yet again. So how long will this continue until it said that enough is enough? Will Italy be happy only when AK and RS are found guilty without it being appealed in their favor? There has to be a line drawn somewhere.

MOO
Just to clarify: Italy is NOT calling it a retrial; the American media are.
 
  • #772
Oh, OK - I confused Nadeau with Andrea Vogt. My bad.

Vogt was also the ONLY non-blog comment source for the prank story I could find, and I searched several times and several ways.
 
  • #773
Vogt was also the ONLY non-blog comment source for the prank story I could find, and I searched several times and several ways.
Fair enough - but she did get the confirmation from Amanda Knox herself (on her blog). So it is factual.
 
  • #774
Fair enough - but she did get the confirmation from Amanda Knox herself (on her blog). So it is factual.

A different version though.
 
  • #775
  • #776
  • #777
Thanks for the footprint pics. It makes it clear that the print continues to the edge of the math, which makes it rather unlikely that the heel did not leave any mark on the floor.

or maybe guede stepped partially on a towel?


I mean, if Knox is innocent and had been railroaded, of course she should not be extradited. And if she is being prosecuted under false information, then yes, she should get the State Department's help.

But has this really been proven? And if she is culpable, it would seem unfair for her to remain a free citizen in the US, if she took part in a killing in Perugia.

did you see the list of evidence suggesting this i posted last week? surely the collection videos are enough on their own??


The bottom line is that although the article you linked states that the decision has already been made, that cannot be true because the request has not yet been made.

Thanks - yes, agreed. And you're right: How can the State Department have voiced their position prior to any request being made on the part of Italy? Bad journalism. No fact checking in that piece. :mad:

but it's completely acceptable that the SCC --a court that ought to be neutral-- stated in it's decision that the two should be found guilty?

The outcome of this assessment will be crucial not only to osmotically demonstrate the presence of the two defendants in the locus delicti commissi, but possibly to delineate the subjective position of the co-conspirators of Guede...
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/PDF-Files.html
 
  • #778
BBM

Why would anyone in the US consider the Hellman appeal to violate double jeaopardy? We are allowed in the US to appeal cases. This is what was done with AK and RS. Their original conviction was appealed and was overturned. In the US that would be the end of it. However, they are now going after AK and RS yet again. This is where the double jeopardy comes into play here in the US. If the court had upheld the original conviction instead of overturning it during the appeal, then no other action would be taken. Same goes for here in the US.

I think there is a mistake in the reasoning. No one is going after Knox and Sollecito again. There was a trial and that verdict was guilty. The verdict was appealed and that decision was not guilty. That is not the end of the process because it was not upheld by the Supreme Court. That is still the middle of the process. The prosecution appeal the not guilty verdict. Knox wants to call this double jeopardy, but it is simply that the law allows the prosecution to appeal (something that is foreign to Knox and which she does not like). We are now hearing that appeal. There will be a verdict on Jan 30, but that is not the end of the process. It is only when a verdict is confirmed by the Supreme Court that the verdict is final.

There is no double jeopardy, but that is the best Knox can do in terms of today's complaint about the Italian justice system. She should stay home if she does not want to respect the laws of foreign countries.
 
  • #779
Oh, OK - I confused Nadeau with Andrea Vogt. My bad.

International journalist Andrea Vogt has released more information about the monkey business with Hampikian. It's an interesting read!
 
  • #780
Hi everyone, I'm a new poster here but have been following this case closely ever since the first trial in 2009. As a means of introduction, I hold a dual MD/PhD degree with my PhD in genetics (although I have no significant expertise in forensic DNA analysis). I have spent the last 30 years as an academic radiologist. That means I do day-to-day radiology, teach medical students and radiology residents and do research. For 5 years I served as the forensic radiology consultant for the state of Virginia mostly helping identify victim's remains. Thus, I have some experience in how murder investigations are conducted. As I said above, I am a new POSTER to this sight but have been following the discussions here, at pro-inocense and pro-guilt as well as other neutral sights for some time now: therefore, I am familiar with the evidence and the arguments both for and against guilt. I must admit that my knowledge of this case's details is not as encyclopedic as some of yours on this site.

With that preamble, and recognizing that this site is dedicated to finding THE TRUTH of various criminal cases, I would like to ask everyone on this site the following simple question (and I do so with no axe to grind). If you were a member of the current jury, could you honestly find AK and RS quilty, BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT?

Trying to keep an open mind, I have looked at the evidence and could NOT in clear conscience vote guilty. I am torn between innocent and not guilty.

I doubt that we will ever KNOW, with certainty, what happened the night of the murder (unless one of the 3 suspects eventually confesses) but I could not vote guilty for the following reasons:
1) This investigation was flawed from the beginning. Collection of evidence was done by people who either didn't know proper technique, didn't care or worse, purposely cherry-picked what evidence to collect. I offer as evidence the commical video of Steffanoni (sp?) and her underlings handeling the bra clasp and the failure to analyze the apparent semen stain. Additionally, a couple of computer harddrives were fried. Was this incompetence or was there a more malevolent motive like destroying exculpatory evidence. I would like to believe the former but I'm not sure.

2) The interrogation of AK seems to have violated accepted standards (no lawyer provided, a biased translator, possible physical abuse (especially in light of the physical abuse described by Patrick L) and to top it off failure to record the interrogation. I honestly can't buy the argument that AK and RS were not suspects at the time of the interrogation, of course they were.

3) The scientific work by Steffanoni was incompetent at best and at worst criminally culpable.

A) The analysis of the DNA sample on the knife purportedly matching MK's DNA was not carried out to international standards and would not be admitted as evidence in most European and North American courts. I also can't buy the argument that the knife taken from RS's apartment is "compatible" with the blood stain found on the sheet in MK's room. It doesn't pass the eye test.

B) RS's DNA on the bra clasp also has problems.

1) It was found days later at a site 1 1/2 meters from it's original
site.

2) The material to which it was attached was initially white and by
the time it was collected had turned gray.

3) How does one get one's DNA ONLY on the clasp and not the
material?

4) It seems somewhat coincidental that Steffanoni decided to collect
the clasp only AFTER the only evidence linking RS to the murder
(the bloody shoeprint initially attributed to RS but later shown to
match a shoe RG disposed of while in Germay) was discredited.
Why was it not collected earlier and why was it's collection so
throughly documented. It's as if she KNEW it was going to
contain RS's DNA.

5) My understanding is that somewhere between 2 and 4 other
people's DNA was found on the clasp or the material to which the
clasp was attached. Why weren't the people who collected the
clasp sampled to see if their DNA matched one of the 4. If it did
it would prove contamination.

C) The luminal+ footprints are problematic. They tested- with TMB. In
forensic labs that I'm aware of, this combination would have
precipitated the need for further testing. Steffanoni did NOT do these
follow-up tests and in fact initially lied about the TMB tests being
done. Why?

4) The prosecution has offered no consistent motive for the murder. I know the pro-gulit people point to the prank that AK apparently played on her roommates while in college but I tend to dismiss that as significant from personal experience. While I was a student, at an Ivy League college, I belonged to a fraternity. It was the custom to allow the pledges, who were near initiation, one night where they could seek revenge on a brother, if they could get away with it, without the other brothers finding out and preventing the prank. My senior year, I did not live in the fraternity house but rather served as a counselor in a freshman dorm. I was easy pickens. The pledges, kidnapped me from my room, stripped me down to my underwear, hogtied me and drove me to my future inlaw's home, 10 miles from campus. They put me on the frontlawn, rang the doorbell and when my future mother-in-law came to door, they leaned out of the car, and said, "Do you know Bill C? He's on your front lawn after we showed him who's boss." They then drove away. Needless to say, she freaked out. She didn't think the prank was very funny and at the time neither did I. Now both she and I think back on the incident and laugh. I mention this because NONE of the people committing the prank have ever done anything criminally violent and to my knowledge have never in any way had problems with the law. My prank was somewhat violent. AK's was not, so I think it's a little far fetched to presume that a college prank is evidence of future wrongdoings.

5) The prosecution has NEVER presented a timeline that fits the 3 suspects' involvement and the evidence. In fact they have never presented a consistent timeline at all.

A) RG's testimony, MK's stomach contents not reaching the duodenum and the "stolen phones being sending signals from a place relatively far from the house at 10:13pm strongly suggest that the murder occurred sometime probably between 9-10pm. If the drug addict who purportedly saw AK and RS at the park from 9:30-12, is to be believed (which I do not), AK and RS therefore would have had to killed MK between 9 and 9:30 pm. Unfortunately, for the prosecution, there is evidence that places AK and RS at RS house until 9:21pm watching a movie. It would be quite a trick for them to leave the house, meet up with RG (who by the way they apparently "knew" only in the most superficial way, if at all (at least in RS's case), kill MK and dump the phones someways from the apartment by 10:13 at the latest much less 9:30 as implied by the drug addicted witness.

6) I feel that the evidence of a staged robbery and coverup is tenuous. The British channel 5 documentary convinced me that a person could climb up to the window after throwing a 9 pound rock thru the window from below. Their forensic glass expert said the individual glass shards could be examined to determine the direction of breakage. This was never done. Why not? Poor police work! There is damage to the inside shudder with glass imbedded in it to suggest that the window was broken from the outside. It is my understanding that a shard of glass from the window was found in MK's room. This would imply that whoever "staged" the break in would have had to go back into the murder room. Why would AK or RS risk leaving traces of themselves in the murder room if they didn't have to?

A) The prosecutors claim that AK and RS cleaned up evidence of their presence the next day. It seems highly unlikely they would be able to remove evidence of their presence from the murder room while leaving copious evidence of RG's involvement. Outside the room could be a different story although I honestly doubt it. How could they clean the hallway of most blood evidence, leave some bloody footprints (RG's) and other luminol+/TMB- footprints without leaving the luminol smear that one typically sees following blood cleanup attempts?

B) The footprint on the bathmat is somewhat difficult to explain. There is no DEFINITIVE evidence that it belongs to RS. In fact, to my eyes it could just as easily belong to RG. I am usually not one for proposing untested scenarios but in this case, I will. Suppose RG got one leg of his pants but not his shoes soaked in blood during the murder. He went into the bathroom wearing his shoes, took one of them off, and attempted to rinse his trouser leg off in the bidet. Some of the blood from the trousers washed down and covered his foot. Stepping out of the bidet he placed one foot on the bathmat leaving the stain (which if I'm not mistaken was felt to be diluted blood: I may be wrong on this point). He them put his shoe back on and attempted to leave the house. While walking down the hall his wet paints leg, still partly bloody dripped onto his shoe accounting for the bloody shoe prints leading to the door.

7) Why did AK NOT notice the foot print on the following morning when she took a shower? I admit this bothered me a little until I saw the video of the bathroom taken shortly after the murder was discovered. In viewing that video, the foot print appeared rather inconspicuous to my eyes and could easily be mistaken for a dirty footprint (remember the blood appears diluted) if one is not suspicious that something violent had occurred. Remember all, her roommates stated that AK was not the most tidy of housekeepers so a dirty bathmat probably would not bother her.

Things I still don't have an explanation for:
1) The woman who heard the scream. I suspect there was a scream but when? RG claims there was a scream at 9:30 pm. How would he benefit from misstating the time he heard the scream? The woman claims that it was sometime after 10 but can't pinpoint it. Her daughter never heard a scream and the people in the broken down car outside claim to have heard nothing from (if I remember correctly) 9:30-11:30.

2) I don't know the significance of the shop owner who claims that AK was waiting for him to open at 7:30 the day after the murder to buy bleach but apparently she left without buying any (there's no receipt). Why would she need to buy bleach when there was plenty in RS flat.

3) AK's "peculiar' behavior at multiple phases of the investigation. I admit that I probably would not have done some of the things she has done, such as recently admitting that she would technically be a fugitive if the current trial ends in a guilty verdict and admitting to the collegiate prank. But if anything this shows poor judgement and a sort of naiveté, NOT guilt. It's the same poor judgement she exhibited in wearing the "all you need is love" teeshirt to the first trial.


Even though I can't explain all aspects of this crime, as a scientist and someone who believes in justice, I need to have proof BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT before I would send 2 people to jail for a large portion of their lives. In this case, the evidence that I'm aware of doesn't begin to approach that standard. Am I convinced they are innocent BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT? No, but I am much closer to reaching this standard and fortunately for AK and RS this is NOT the standard they are expected to prove. if I were a jury member, I would have to vote at least NOT GUILTY but would consider INNOCENT.
 
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