Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#13

[Snoods]

Thank you, aa9511, for replying to my posts from the last thread. Y'all's collective knowledge of this case is a bit intimidating. Sometimes I feel like the little sister that tags along, occasionally tugging on everyone's collective sweater to ask an annoying question lol.

I have heard of the prank theory, but to me it is improbable. Instead of the contortions to fit AK and RS into the murder somehow, why not believe that the criminal with a history of breaking and entering into a building with a rock through a window, and who also is known to carry a knife, was guilty of the murder? I know at this point nobody is really going to change their mind, these are just my own musings.

Otto, I must have been mistaken about Italy offering a plea deal to RS. I do remember reading this a while ago, but I defer to everyone else in regards to this.

 

[otto]

Thank you, aa9511, for replying to my posts from the last thread. Y'all's collective knowledge of this case is a bit intimidating. Sometimes I feel like the little sister that tags along, occasionally tugging on everyone's collective sweater to ask an annoying question lol.

I have heard of the prank theory, but to me it is improbable. Instead of the contortions to fit AK and RS into the murder somehow, why not believe that the criminal with a history of breaking and entering into a building with a rock through a window, and who also is known to carry a knife, was guilty of the murder?

Otto, I must have been mistaken about Italy offering a plea deal to RS. I do remember reading this a while ago, but I defer to everyone else in regards to this.

There are no plea deals in Italy, but there is the fast track, or abbreviated, option. Guede was going to be convicted, and he knew it. His best option was to opt for the abbreviated trial, which guarantees that his sentence will be cut by one third. He was given a 25 year sentence, the same as Knox and Sollecito. His sentence was then reduced by one third to 16 2/3 years. That has translated to being eligible for parole after serving half that sentence, and that has again been reduced for good behavior. He's eligible for parole this year.

If Sollecito implied that he was offered a deal in his book, I suspect that it was more along the lines of being in a position to give evidence against Knox and possibly having a lesser sentence for having reduced responsibility for the murder. The prosecutor has maintained that Knox is the ring leader in the murder, which makes sense as she had a relationship with the victim. Guede and Sollecito were portrayed as being manipulated into participating in the murder.

 

[Snoods]

The rock through the window is a rather obvious example of tampering with the scene, as are missing phones, locked bedroom door, "showering" in a bathroom where blood is on the sink, the floor, the light switch, the door and on the plumbing.

BBM This is another coincidence that is difficult for me to believe. AK and RS somehow staged a crime scene that was identical to the way that RG broke into the last place he robbed?

 

[Snoods]

There are no plea deals in Italy, but there is the fast track, or abbreviated, option. Guede was going to be convicted, and he knew it. His best option was to opt for the abbreviated trial, which guarantees that his sentence will be cut by one third. He was given a 25 year sentence, the same as Knox and Sollecito. His sentence was then reduced by one third to 16 2/3 years. That has translated to being eligible for parole after serving half that sentence, and that has again been reduced for good behavior. He's eligible for parole this year.

If Sollecito implied that he was offered a deal in his book, I suspect that it was more along the lines of being in a position to give evidence against Knox and possibly having a lesser sentence for having reduced responsibility for the murder. The prosecutor has maintained that Knox is the ring leader in the murder, which makes sense as she had a relationship with the victim. Guede and Sollecito were portrayed as being manipulated into participating in the murder.

I remember reading an article stating RS was offered a reduced sentence, I guess "plea deal" was my own creative wording. It was long before RS wrote his book, though. ETA: I haven't read his book, nor Amanda's.

Otto, was RG given a reduced sentence because he offered up AK and RS? I can't believe that RG is eligible for parole this year! They can still deny his parole, correct?

 

[Snoods]

And? Radar is not the Enquirer. Is it known that The Enquirer has had Elvis alive and well for many many years now? Sometimes they get things right, most often they don't. How many stories have there been about aliens having sex with humans producing alien/human babies? And how often do those rag magazines publish proof for their stories?

I love all of youz, but I can't help but giggle at this particular argument! I remember posts a while back (don't make me search for them) from a few of the guilty side aghast that us innocents were quoting from a Daily Mail article, and now us innocents are clutching our pearls that Radar online is being quoted!

TorisMom, I apologize for piggybacking off of your post, but I just started cracking up at your "The Enquirer has had Elvis alive and well for many years" statement :floorlaugh:!

 

[Katody]

Defense witness or not she was still under oath when she stated this:



http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

Thanks for the quote.

Stefanoni lying about the TMB, Stefanoni lying about the quantification of the knife sample, Stefanoni destroying the bra sample so it can't be retested by independent experts. It all doesn't put her in good light.
Is she just incompetent or...?

 

[Bill C]

Bill_C, I do not mean any disrespect at all, but I do find it odd that you seem to, for lack of a better word, despise Stefanoni so much. Just speaking for myself as a "neutral" observer, by neutral meaning I have never met or talked with any of the parties involved in this case, I do not hold such strong feelings for any in the case. For example, I am pretty convinced that Amanda and RS were involved in the murder in some way or another (I am still working it out, but have stated my theory in recent posts), however, if the verdict comes in Not-guilty, I am fine with that. Even "knowing" they were there and, whether accidental or not, they killed Meredith along with Rudy. But I will be ok that they got a trial (loooonnggg trial), and the jury spoke, and I will accept their decision no matter what it is. Because I know that, as an outsider, no matter how much interest I have in the case, I am still an outsider and I am on the outside looking in - a much different position than those who are actively involved or were actively involved with the case.

I know you are a scientist and have stated that your feelings about Stefanoni are because of this. However, there is not pnly one piece of DNA or one piece of forensic evidence on Amanda - there are many in the cottage. If one is dismissed because of contamination, there are still more there. The situation is different for RS, I admit that, DNA-wise.

Also, even taking out all of the DNA, there is still, IMO, much circumstantial evidence against Amanda and RS having nothing to do with DNA.

So I don't understand why the intense dislike for Stefanoni?

IMO it's not like the case would have just crumbled down if it weren't for her. There would still be a case, there would still be DNA, there would still be their stories, the alibi problems, etc..

Aa9511- As I stated in one of my first posts, I am not convinced that AK and RS are definitely innocent but I do think the evidence against them does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they are guilty even if the evidence is taken osmotically. I really view the Italian justice system, at least in this case, as carrying out a kind of vendetta against the 2 defendants. I came to this conclusion after reading the ISC's arguments for throwing out the first acquittal. What infuriated me most was in essence their asking AK and RS to PROVE their innocence by proving contamination after the fact (which is next to impossible) when the prosecution and their experts could have proven there was no contamination if the initial studies were done correctly and thoroughly to begin with. I might add here that I too have no direct or indirect involvement with anyone involvement with anyone involved in the case.

You ask about my intense dislike of Steffanoni. I tend to hold those who hold the lives of others in their hands to a higher standard than the average person. That includes doctors, nurses, lawyers, policemen and forensic scientists. Everyone is entitled to make a mistake or two, even the people I would hold to a higher standard. Heck, I know I've misread the occasional x-ray or MRI. However, these are what I like to call honest mistakes. They don't happen often and there is no malicious pattern to these mistakes.

Steffanoni's work in this case shows just not one mistake but several as I've alluded to before. All of these mistakes seem to be in the prosecution's favor. Not one mistake wound up favoring the defense. Additionally, I look at her testimony in court. I would say she bent over backwards (and that, in my opinion, is being charitable) to portray the evidence in the best prosecutorial light possible. Now I understand why both defense and prosecution lawyers portray their evidence to support their case. That's their job. But, a scientist has the responsibility to intellectual honesty and MUST let the data, ALL the data, speak for itself. Taken osmotically, like the ISC likes to do, I view Steffanoni's work as being intellectually dishonest and that is one of the worst things one can say about a scientist. In some ways, it's the equivalent of the scientist who forges data. When caught, that scientist is ostracized and shunned by the rest of the scientific community. I hope that explains why I feel so strongly about Steffanoni.

Steffanoni's work, taken together with that of the police, prosecutors and their computer experts, IMO, demonstrates, at best supreme incompetence and at worst a disregard for the law and a willingness to do whatever it takes to achieve a guilty verdict using the motto, the ends justify the means as their banner. I point to the lack of videotaping of AK's interrogation and the frying of personal computers as just 2 examples. I view the case, rightly or wrongly, as an attempt by the Italian justice system to railroad 2 young people who up until the night of the murder and thereafter never exhibited violent tendencies. Like I said above, I don't know for sure whether they are innocent or guilty of complicity in the murder but I do know that the evidence does NOT prove their guilt and the Italian justice system should be ashamed of themselves for how they have treated this case.

 

[Katody]

Mark Olshaker demolishes Vogt's latest nonsense:
http://mindhuntersinc.com/pandering-to-existing-beliefs/

 

[quesarita]

The court concluded that Knox stepped in blood in Meredith's bedroom and then tracked the blood, evidenced by her luminol revealed footprints, to various places in the cottage (page 382 Massei Report).

If the theory was that Amanda stepped in Meredith's blood in the bedroom, why was there no luminol testing done in the bedroom, since that would have shown signs that a clean up was done?

Did they perform the test in the hallway and Amanda's bedroom, because she'd already said that she showered and stepped on the bath mat with the bloody foot print and they had an idea that they might get a positive result from that? Otherwise, starting at the location of the blood on the floor, from where Rudy's visible shoe prints started seems like a more obvious choice.

 

[Katody]

If the theory was that Amanda stepped in Meredith's blood in the bedroom, why was there no luminol testing done in the bedroom, since that would have shown signs that a clean up was done?

Did they perform the test in the hallway and Amanda's bedroom, because she'd already said that she showered and stepped on the bath mat with the bloody foot print and they had an idea that they might get a positive result from that? Otherwise, starting at the location of the blood on the floor, from where Rudy's visible shoe prints started seems like a more obvious choice.

Bingo!

 

[Amber29]

If the theory was that Amanda stepped in Meredith's blood in the bedroom, why was there no luminol testing done in the bedroom, since that would have shown signs that a clean up was done?

Did they perform the test in the hallway and Amanda's bedroom, because she'd already said that she showered and stepped on the bath mat with the bloody foot print and they had an idea that they might get a positive result from that? Otherwise, starting at the location of the blood on the floor, from where Rudy's visible shoe prints started seems like a more obvious choice.

Does Amanda's bathmat story cover her footprint that is facing Meredith's door?
Was there enough blood on the mat to cover Amanda's foot or would she have needed to put her foot right on the bloody footprint and then step off a few times?

IMO the opposite is true, Amanda told the bathmat story to cover anything luminol would uncover. Again why would anyone use a bloody mat this way over just quickly running to your room? It would've also been very cold in the cottage, so why not get to your room as quick as possible there is nothing quick about scooting on a bathmat. To unrealistic to me but I guess I can see from an innocent pov twisting it to the police doing the luminol to frame AK.

 

[quesarita]

Does Amanda's bathmat story cover her footprint that is facing Meredith's door?
Was there enough blood on the mat to cover Amanda's foot or would she have needed to put her foot right on the bloody footprint and then step off a few times?

IMO the opposite is true, Amanda told the bathmat story to cover anything luminol would uncover. Again why would anyone use a bloody mat this way over just quickly running to your room? It would've also been very cold in the cottage, so why not get to your room as quick as possible there is nothing quick about scooting on a bathmat. To unrealistic to me but I guess I can see from an innocent pov twisting it to the police doing the luminol to frame AK.

This seems backwards to me, in that she told the bath mat story before any luminol testing was done, and she had no similar story for why her bloody footprints might have been found in Meredith's bedroom - which would have been more likely as the traces would have been deeper.

Everyone keeps talking about the extreme sensitivity of luminol, why it finds traces of blood that are not detectable by TMB (for instance). I've asked the question several times: would stepping on the bloody footprint with a wet foot pick up enough blood to leave those minimal traces on the floor?

The bathroom door and Meredith's door are right next to each other; you can't walk out of the bathroom without stepping next to Meredith's door.

 

[Harmony 2]

Stealing a woman's purse is IMO more than being a nuisance. But we can forget that one if you like. There is another example of Rudy being violent when cornered while comitting a crime. Cristian Tramontano gave a summary statement on 1/7/08. Imagine what Rudy would do to a woman that could ID him, perhaps exactly what he did.

MOO

This is an interesting article which offers some insight into Rudy's background.

It states he was diagnosed as having Psychogenic Dissociation, commonly known as “Fugue State” while in prison.

Moreover, that in the month and a half prior to the murder of Meredith Kercher, Guede had robbed four people, set a fire, killed a cat and was caught with stolen goods from two robberies.

http://wrongfulconvictionnews.com/the-murder-of-meredith-kercher/

 

[Amber29]

This seems backwards to me, in that she told the bath mat story before any luminol testing was done, and she had no similar story for why her bloody footprints might have been found in Meredith's bedroom - which would have been more likely as the traces would have been deeper.

Everyone keeps talking about the extreme sensitivity of luminol, why it finds traces of blood that are not detectable by TMB (for instance). I've asked the question several times: would stepping on the bloody footprint with a wet foot pick up enough blood to leave those minimal traces on the floor?

The bathroom door and Meredith's door are right next to each other; you can't walk out of the bathroom without stepping next to Meredith's door.

What I said was " to cover anything luminol would uncover" meaning she was covering bases. Why do you think the bathmat scooting wasn't in her email and only told later? The email was very detailed but she failed to include this bit.

I don't know if stepping in the mat would cover her foot enough to leave those prints.

As far as the doors I still don't understand why Amanda's print would point towards MKs door instead of towards her room the direction she was going.

 

[Katody]

Does Amanda's bathmat story cover her footprint that is facing Meredith's door?

Doesn't it?

Was there enough blood on the mat to cover Amanda's foot or would she have needed to put her foot right on the bloody footprint and then step off a few times?

I thought luminol shows 1 to million dilutions or so?

IMO the opposite is true, Amanda told the bathmat story to cover anything luminol would uncover.

Then why tell a story at all? Cleaning the floor fully instead of bizarre "spot cleaning" you theorized would do.

Again why would anyone use a bloody mat this way over just quickly running to your room?

To not cover the floor with pools of water. I do it each time I happen to forget the towel.

 

[quesarita]

What I said was " to cover anything luminol would uncover" meaning she was covering bases. Why do you think the bathmat scooting wasn't in her email and only told later? The email was very detailed but she failed to include this bit.

I don't know if stepping in the mat would cover her foot enough to leave those prints.

As far as the doors I still don't understand why Amanda's print would point towards MKs door instead of towards her room the direction she was going.

She did mention drying her feet on the mat in the email.

I don't understand why there wouldn't be ANY print facing away from the door if she stepped in the blood in the bedroom. It looks more like she stopped to knock on Meredith's door as she also said she did, while walking past the door, to or from the bathroom.

 

[quesarita]

She did mention drying her feet on the mat in the email.

I don't understand why there wouldn't be ANY print facing away from the door if she stepped in the blood in the bedroom. It looks more like she stopped to knock on Meredith's door as she also said she did, while walking past the door, to or from the bathroom.

Sorry, I meant to include the floor plan of the cottage (from TMMK.)

 

[Katody]

What I said was " to cover anything luminol would uncover" meaning she was covering bases. Why do you think the bathmat scooting wasn't in her email and only told later? The email was very detailed but she failed to include this bit.

You really think this is the detail she should include in the email? Why would she?

Do you have a habit of describing your bathroom adventures in your emails? Is it something people do?

 

[otto]

This is an interesting article which offers some insight into Rudy's background.

It states he was diagnosed as having Psychogenic Dissociation, commonly known as “Fugue State” while in prison.

Moreover, that in the month and a half prior to the murder of Meredith Kercher, Guede had robbed four people, set a fire, killed a cat and was caught with stolen goods from two robberies.

http://wrongfulconvictionnews.com/the-murder-of-meredith-kercher/

That's an interesting site, but I have to question whether the content is objective. This is in the "about us" comments:

"Our first mission began in early 2010 when we created Injustice in Perugia (IIP), a grassroots organization that worked to secure freedom for Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, two innocent people wrongfully convicted for murder in Perugia, Italy. Both were declared innocent on appeal in October 2011 after 1427 days of wrongful imprisonment."

http://wrongfulconvictionnews.com/aboutus/

 

[otto]

She did mention drying her feet on the mat in the email.

I don't understand why there wouldn't be ANY print facing away from the door if she stepped in the blood in the bedroom. It looks more like she stopped to knock on Meredith's door as she also said she did, while walking past the door, to or from the bathroom.

She did mention drying her feet on the bathmat in her email.

Meredith's bedroom door was locked, which requires someone to stand, facing the door, and turn the key. Guede's prints do not illustrate this position or location of his feet.