Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#6

[geevee]

I would very much like to read about a case in the US where the arguments used to discredit the luminol evidence in this case have been successfully presented in a criminal trial in the US. If this is the first time that these claims are being used to discredit luminol evidence, and the claims are only made by people that would never present the same claims as experts in a criminal trial, then I think it's not worth debating. It takes on the appearance of being a good enough argument for a case in Italy, but not good enough for a US trial ... giving me the impression that it is an argument without substance.

I don't know that the Luminol tests were discredited per se, just that secondary tests did not find dna, there may be other tests to determine what exactly the Luminol did react to, it may have been blood, just no dna was recoverable (or identifiable) for whatever reason - too little, degraded by other substances on the floor, etc).

 

[otto]

Not that it matters but I was under the impression he was trying to start a race war (helter skelter) but I do recall lots of mention of satanic cults during that trial (and in the 70's). But it wasn't true then, and it hasn't seemed to have been the case in any other murder I can think of where the term was thrown around, I just wondered if any LE/investigator ever seriously believed a cult could be responsible for nearly any murder, or if it's mainly tabloid barking.

Apparently, investigators in the disappearance of Laci Peterson also investigated the satanic cult theory. If they didn't take it seriously, they would not have investigated.

 

[Harmony 2]

Could a scenario like the following explain why there were no bloody footprints between the bathroom and Meredith's bedroom?

Evidently Rudy wore shoes in Meredith’s room while the attack occurred. Blood would not have gotten on the bottom of his socks while wearing shoes. After the assault, he proceeded to set the knife down on the bed to look through her purse. If he then removed his shoes and walked over to the sink to wash up there would be no prints left on the floor. He then could have removed his socks to clean the bottom of his pants as he didn’t want to be seen walking back to his apartment with blood all over his pants. He could have placed his foot in the sink or shower to wash down the lower portion of his pants and the blood would have run down to the bottom of his foot. He could have set it down on the rug, leaving the imprint, while he cleaned the other side, then dried his feet and put his socks back on to walk back with the towels to Meredith’s room. Before leaving he could have put his shoes back on and walked down the hall.

 

[SMK]

I was asking what was the specific facts of this incident you are referring to. What one considers an "abrupt about face" may not be seen the same by others. People emphasize different things in different conversations, that does not mean it is an "about face." I also think one needs to rely on actual testimony rather than just take the murder wiki at its word that it was an "about face."

But I don't really know the specific facts you are referring here to be able to make an informed judgment on what you are referring to.

The fact that she expressed concern about the locked door to Filomena, and in her email home she expresses how frenzied she and RS had been over it: But when the Postal Police arrive, she says the locked door is typical of MK and not of any concern. That is a complete turn-about. So they ignored it until F came in, said it was a huge deal, and to break it down forthwith. It's indicative of Knox trying to stall, or something. To a nature like mine, these are the riveting things, the details which make alarms go off. I find it far more intriguing than luminol and dna. But then, I am more a literary/psychological analytical type. If the murderwiki authors have fabricated any of this, a plague be on their houses, grrrrrr
ETA: In other words, when the wiki authors lay claim to being objective, to working from transcripts, and summarizing for us, we ought to be able to take them at their word. I am supposed to be saved the time of wading through hundreds of pages by their synopsis, which is to be fact-based only. If not, then the truth should come out with an acquittal.

 

[otto]

I see, thanks for the explanation Otto, I was quite confused as to where the fruit pulp came into the story/theory and who brought it in (prosecutor, defense, etc.).

I agree you can't determine blood from a photograph, but I think you can make a reasonable inference that if a neck is cut, and there is blood in the vicinity from the cut, the drops on the chest would most likely be blood (but of course must be tested). But maybe not with Luminol. lol

I don't know who introduced the fruit discussion, but it is also mentioned in the screen shot I posted.

There were no drops on Meredith's chest. She was wearing her bra when she was murdered and when it was cut off, there was a stencil of the bra on her chest. Other than a link to a discussion board, there is no reference for blood droplets on Meredith's chest.

The claim that there were blood droplets on Meredith's chest has been made here several times. By repetition, it is now being considered fact, but it is nothing more than a repeated, unreferenced claim.

It's similar to the statement that Guede's foot prints do not lead down the corridor to the exit. The claim has been repeatedly made without a reference. That does not make it true.

 

[otto]

Could a scenario like the following explain why there were no bloody footprints between the bathroom and Meredith's bedroom?

Evidently Rudy wore shoes in Meredith’s room while the attack occurred. Blood would not have gotten on the bottom of his socks while wearing shoes. After the assault, he proceeded to set the knife down on the bed to look through her purse. If he then removed his shoes and walked over to the sink to wash up there would be no prints left on the floor. He then could have removed his socks to clean the bottom of his pants as he didn’t want to be seen walking back to his apartment with blood all over his pants. He could have placed his foot in the sink or shower to wash down the lower portion of his pants and the blood would have run down to the bottom of his foot. He could have set it down on the rug, leaving the imprint, while he cleaned the other side, then dried his feet and put his socks back on to walk back with the towels to Meredith’s room. Before leaving he could have put his shoes back on and walked down the hall.

There is no evidence that Guede washed his clothes in the bathroom. There is no evidence that he was in the bathroom. If Guede was washing his clothes and feet in the bathroom, shouldn't there be at least some evidence that this happened?

 

[geevee]

Apparently, investigators in the disappearance of Laci Peterson also investigated the satanic cult theory. If they didn't take it seriously, they would not have investigated.

A woman disappears without a trace and one of the theories investigated is a satanic cult; when things like that occur, I would take a very hard and careful look at any and all "evidence" they have, as from that point on their thinking and reasoning is very suspect in my mind. National Enquirer suspect.

 

[otto]

The fact that she expressed concern about the locked door to Filomena, and in her email home she expresses how frenzied she and RS had been over it: But when the Postal Police arrive, she says the locked door is typical of MK and not of any concern. That is a complete turn-about. So they ignored it until F came in, said it was a huge deal, and to break it down forthwith. It's indicative of Knox trying to stall, or something. To a nature like mine, these are the riveting things, the details which make alarms go off. I find it far more intriguing than luminol and dna. But then, I am more a literary/psychological analytical type. If the murderwiki authors have fabricated any of this, a plague be on their houses, grrrrrr

Here's the discussion about Knox's panic/no-panic over locked door
Ref: pg 31 Massei

 

[geevee]

Could a scenario like the following explain why there were no bloody footprints between the bathroom and Meredith's bedroom?

Evidently Rudy wore shoes in Meredith’s room while the attack occurred. Blood would not have gotten on the bottom of his socks while wearing shoes. After the assault, he proceeded to set the knife down on the bed to look through her purse. If he then removed his shoes and walked over to the sink to wash up there would be no prints left on the floor. He then could have removed his socks to clean the bottom of his pants as he didn’t want to be seen walking back to his apartment with blood all over his pants. He could have placed his foot in the sink or shower to wash down the lower portion of his pants and the blood would have run down to the bottom of his foot. He could have set it down on the rug, leaving the imprint, while he cleaned the other side, then dried his feet and put his socks back on to walk back with the towels to Meredith’s room. Before leaving he could have put his shoes back on and walked down the hall.

I think that sounds very reasonable, Harmony. No extraordinary gyrations to make evidence fit a theory are necessary, just a simple 'what would one person have done to make the scene appear as it was found', well done.

 

[Myvice]

Could a scenario like the following explain why there were no bloody footprints between the bathroom and Meredith's bedroom?

Evidently Rudy wore shoes in Meredith’s room while the attack occurred. Blood would not have gotten on the bottom of his socks while wearing shoes. After the assault, he proceeded to set the knife down on the bed to look through her purse. If he then removed his shoes and walked over to the sink to wash up there would be no prints left on the floor. He then could have removed his socks to clean the bottom of his pants as he didn’t want to be seen walking back to his apartment with blood all over his pants. He could have placed his foot in the sink or shower to wash down the lower portion of his pants and the blood would have run down to the bottom of his foot. He could have set it down on the rug, leaving the imprint, while he cleaned the other side, then dried his feet and put his socks back on to walk back with the towels to Meredith’s room. Before leaving he could have put his shoes back on and walked down the hall.

The question I have about this is there are obvious footprints of his in the bedroom. His shoes were bloody. Why would he take his shoes off to wash his pants rather than sticking his shoed feet and pants into the bidet to wash them? He wasn't caring much about the evidence in the house, apparently, so why take the time to take his shoes and socks off and put them back on?

 

[SMK]

Here's the discussion about Knox's panic/no-panic over locked door
Ref: pg 31 Massei

Thanks so much for this, otto

 

[otto]

A woman disappears without a trace and one of the theories investigated is a satanic cult; when things like that occur, I would take a very hard and careful look at any and all "evidence" they have, as from that point on their thinking and reasoning is very suspect in my mind. National Enquirer suspect.

There must have been a tip or a lead that caused police to investigate a satanic cult theory in the Peterson case. The same could be said of the Monster of Florence case. The case is still unsolved, so every lead, no matter how unlikely, would have been explored. Preston is fixated on the damaging the reputation of the prosecutor.

 

[geevee]

The fact that she expressed concern about the locked door to Filomena, and in her email home she expresses how frenzied she and RS had been over it: But when the Postal Police arrive, she says the locked door is typical of MK and not of any concern. That is a complete turn-about. So they ignored it until F came in, said it was a huge deal, and to break it down forthwith. It's indicative of Knox trying to stall, or something. To a nature like mine, these are the riveting things, the details which make alarms go off. I find it far more intriguing than luminol and dna. But then, I am more a literary/psychological analytical type. If the murderwiki authors have fabricated any of this, a plague be on their houses, grrrrrr
ETA: In other words, when the wiki authors lay claim to being objective, to working from transcripts, and summarizing for us, we ought to be able to take them at their word. I am supposed to be saved the time of wading through hundreds of pages by their synopsis, which is to be fact-based only. If not, then the truth should come out with an acquittal.

It's my understanding that the postal police did not want to break the door for liability reasons and had RS do it. Is that not correct?

Agree wholly with your ETA.

 

[otto]

I think that sounds very reasonable, Harmony. No extraordinary gyrations to make evidence fit a theory are necessary, just a simple 'what would one person have done to make the scene appear as it was found', well done.

There is no evidence that Guede was in the bathroom, so the theory stands alone, completely unsupported by evidence.

 

[Yellow]

The fact that she expressed concern about the locked door to Filomena, and in her email home she expresses how frenzied she and RS had been over it: But when the Postal Police arrive, she says the locked door is typical of MK and not of any concern. That is a complete turn-about. So they ignored it until F came in, said it was a huge deal, and to break it down forthwith. It's indicative of Knox trying to stall, or something. To a nature like mine, these are the riveting things, the details which make alarms go off. I find it far more intriguing than luminol and dna. But then, I am more a literary/psychological analytical type. If the murderwiki authors have fabricated any of this, a plague be on their houses, grrrrrr

As to your first question, Massai report concluded that phone calls to postal police happened before arrival so that addresses that concern. People on the murder wiki can split hairs about that but the evidence shows the calls we replaced before

I would suspect some things about your second concern we just are not going to ever really know. I also think this is a situation where translation issues come into play and since there was no stenographer there we don't really know what exactly was said and how it is being translated now

AK could very well have said, " Maybe it is that big of a concern bc MK sometimes Locked her door." The key word "maybe" or "sometimes" could have been said and that would change the entire tone. I think AK did not fully appreciate the gravity of the situation, bc at that point they had no clue they would find a dead body. Quite frankly, in the excitement of that situation, I don't think anyone knows word for word what anyone really says. Also, at this point, she was not fluent in Italian, it could have been something in the way she phrased it that put a different spin on it than intended.

In any events it seems completely illogical why AK would want to delay when she knew the police were there and were going to find that body within minutes. Would 5 minutes somehow make a difference to her plan? I don't see what the logic would be

I also never heard of any case anywhere where similar evidence was somehow used to impute guilt. I think even she said exactly what the wiki claims, it would be odd but given there was no logical reason for her to say it, I don't think it is nefarious. Why tell the postal police they tried to knock the door down then? That is at odds w her apparent attitude about the door there. Either she is just a naive kid saying things about of excitement, or she is a cold blooded murderer. If murderer I don't see why you would tell the police she tried to break the door down at all.

Is this even something the prosecutor has made a big deal about? If just on the murder wiki, I would suspect there may be some translation issues going on. I am not sure, maybe the prosecutor is using it.

 

[Yellow]

There is no evidence that Guede was in the bathroom, so the theory stands alone, completely unsupported by evidence.

There is at least a dispute between the two sides in whose footprint is on the bathmat, defense says RG

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Where do they go?

IIUC they fade out as they go toward the door. I am not aware that any were found outside.

 

[geevee]

I don't know who introduced the fruit discussion, but it is also mentioned in the screen shot I posted.

There were no drops on Meredith's chest. She was wearing her bra when she was murdered and when it was cut off, there was a stencil of the bra on her chest. Other than a link to a discussion board, there is no reference for blood droplets on Meredith's chest.

The claim that there were blood droplets on Meredith's chest has been made here several times. By repetition, it is now being considered fact, but it is nothing more than a repeated, unreferenced claim.

It's similar to the statement that Guede's foot prints do not lead down the corridor to the exit. The claim has been repeatedly made without a reference. That does not make it true.

Yes, I saw the fruit juice reference in your later post so I do see now where it was stated, thanks.

Wish I could read the whole autopsy report.

 

[SMK]

It's my understanding that the postal police did not want to break the door for liability reasons and had RS do it. Is that not correct?

Agree wholly with your ETA.

Yes, there were liability issues which made them hesitate---No, RS says he had tried earlier with a kick---Filomena insisted they knock down the locked door, and said she would accept liability for it. (thanks for your agreement re eta )

 

[otto]

It's my understanding that the postal police did not want to break the door for liability reasons and had RS do it. Is that not correct?

Agree wholly with your ETA.

Sollecito did not break down the door. He was in the living room/kitchen area when the door was broken. Sollecito cracked the door when he and Knox were alone at the cottage. When they were alone, they were panicked and tried to break down the door. After the arrival of Postal Police and Filomina, Knox stated that Meredith routinely locked her door.

Filomina accepted full responsibility for the cost of repairing the door prior to it being broken.