sandraladeda
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I totally agree!
Another Person of interest - HOW?
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If we contemplate any BDI theory - even one where JDI but tells PR BDI, and PR helps with the staging to protect BR- we have to look at what the consequenses would be to BR, and the risks the Rs would take to prevent those consequences.
The consequences are basically very small. He was 9 at the time. I believe 12 is the cut-off in CO for being tried as an adult. The likely result of calling an ambulance and telling the police that BR hit JBR on the head would be BR spending some time with a child psychiatrist. Possibly he'd be taken from the Rs for a spell, but not permanently.
And if BR did it, then his parents would naturally want him to get the mental help he obviously needs - even if that meant a stint as a ward of the state, or being sent to a foster home for a while.
The Rs have lots and lots of money. They could afford whatever BR needed. Shrinks, 24 hour nannys, whatever it takes.
The risks are very high. The Rs would be taking a huge risk in being found out, and then charged with obstruction of justice - with possible jail time, all to avoid what? BR getting some mental help?
Even in a JDI, lies to PR that BDI scenario, PR would have to be smelling something fishy.
No. It simply doesn't make sense. IMO covering up for BR is highly improbable.
The consequences are basically very small. He was 9 at the time. I believe 12 is the cut-off in CO for being tried as an adult. The likely result of calling an ambulance and telling the police that BR hit JBR on the head would be BR spending some time with a child psychiatrist. Possibly he'd be taken from the Rs for a spell, but not permanently.
And if BR did it, then his parents would naturally want him to get the mental help he obviously needs - even if that meant a stint as a ward of the state, or being sent to a foster home for a while.
The Rs have lots and lots of money. They could afford whatever BR needed. Shrinks, 24 hour nannys, whatever it takes.
The risks are very high. The Rs would be taking a huge risk in being found out, and then charged with obstruction of justice - with possible jail time, all to avoid what? BR getting some mental help?
Even in a JDI, lies to PR that BDI scenario, PR would have to be smelling something fishy.
No. It simply doesn't make sense. IMO covering up for BR is highly improbable.
The cut-off age in Colorado for being responsible for a crime is 10. BR was just a few weeks shy of his 10th birthday. Even if he admitted it, or was known to be responsible, charges would still not be brought, nor would charges be brought against any accomplice, even if the accomplice was over 10, because it would implicate the child under 10.
I disagree about the Rs wanting to place BR in foster care, or any residential treatment facility to "get help". Doing so would have told the world that he killed his sister, whether Colorado brought charges or not.
The Rs wanted what was best for their son, yes, but what THEY feel was best for him- mainly for them all to "get on with their lives" (BR's own words). To do that required a coverup- and throwing everyone they ever knew under the "suspect" bus.
I don't understand JR and PR going to such great lengths to cover up what happened if Burke was indeed responsible. The risk they would take covering up the crime doesn't seem to mesh with what consequences Burke would face. They wouldn't lock up a 9 year old and throw away the key.
How did they plan on keeping Burke's mouth shut? What if he told some of his friends or relatives what happened? If his conscience finally wore him down years later? They would have to be supremely confident that the truth would never surface, and I don't think they could be covering for a little kid.
I can see either PR or JR killing JBR and then the other aiding the cover up, but that's it. I don't buy them covering up for a relative or friend, no matter how close. Perhaps they both had a hand in her death, but what scenarios outside of premeditation explain that? The most logical explanation in my mind is one of the two temporarily flying off the handle for some unknown reason and causing far more damage than they intended. After which they solicited the help of their spouse to find a way out.
How did they plan on keeping Burke's mouth shut? What if he told some of his friends or relatives what happened? If his conscience finally wore him down years later? They would have to be supremely confident that the truth would never surface, and I don't think they could be covering for a little kid.
I can see either PR or JR killing JBR and then the other aiding the cover up, but that's it. I don't buy them covering up for a relative or friend, no matter how close. Perhaps they both had a hand in her death, but what scenarios outside of premeditation explain that? The most logical explanation in my mind is one of the two temporarily flying off the handle for some unknown reason and causing far more damage than they intended. After which they solicited the help of their spouse to find a way out.
devwat12,
A BDI theory is possible, but as you suggest has so many hidden provisos and qualifications, that it seems doomed to failure.
I reckon back then Burke knew the main outline of what had occurred, but probably not the details. He was certainly aware that JonBenet was awake snacking pineapple, remember his version of events changes to suit the parents version, he will have been told to go to bed and fake being asleep when the police arrive etc. Now as an adult he must know his parents were involved in a homicide and coverup.
Another aspect is that I know of no forensic evidence linking the crime-scene to Burke, yet there is evidence linking the parents e.g. they saved Burke but framed themselves.
I take everyone's point about the law in Colorado for under 10s, but would the Ramseys have known that? Even if there were no charges brought, the hunmiliation of having your son kill your daughter would be great.
Having said that, I'm inclined to agree that Burke probably wasn't involved.
Having said that, I'm inclined to agree that Burke probably wasn't involved.
If JDI then told Patsy that Burke had done it, to enlist her aid, Burke's story later wouldn't matter.
DeeDee249,
Sure but Burke hardly needed to kill JonBenet. Patsy knew Burke and JonBenet shared beds, her housekeeper has made remarks about walking in on Burke and JonBenet, assuming they are valid and not sensasionalist gossip?
It would be an adult that sought JonBenet's silence not another child. That Patsy or John became involved suggests prior knowledge. If it had been Patsy then I reckon as per standard procedure she would have attempted to fake some kind of domestic accident and offered this as the reason for JonBenet's death. If it had been John then I can see his mind moving towards an intruder.
I find it incoherent that Patsy whacks JonBenet then proceeds to create a fake crime scene complete with a ransom note. An accident does not require that kind of response, with medical assistance denied never mind applying the garrote, the staging tells you JonBenet was to be killed!
If its a PDI when and why is JonBenet sexually assaulted, who decides to hide it all. Which contradicts the intention of the staging e.g. to suggest its the work of an intruder?
.
I disagree about the Rs wanting to place BR in foster care, or any residential treatment facility to "get help". Doing so would have told the world that he killed his sister, whether Colorado brought charges or not.
I'm sorry I wasn't clearer on that point. I wasn't saying the Rs would want him in foster care, just that foster care was about the biggest problem they were facing. I don't think they'd have run the risk they did just to keep BR out of foster care - or a mental facility- for a relatively short period of time.
They'd probably prefer he went to their own shrink - quietly - but again, the worst they were facing was having him see a state appointed shrink, more or less publicly. That could be embarrasing, but it's hardly worth obstructing justice to avoid.
On age limitations, I believe it's 12 for this type of felony in CO -
www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_dir/olls/PDF/ WHEN%20A%20CHILD%20CAN%20BE%20TRIED%20AS%20AN%20ADULT.pdf -
Not that it matters much, as BR was 9. So whether 10 or 12, Burke was too young to be tried. Which means covering up for Burke wasn't very likely.
I take everyone's point about the law in Colorado for under 10s, but would the Ramseys have known that? Even if there were no charges brought, the hunmiliation of having your son kill your daughter would be great.
Most people know there is an age below which children can't be tried as an adult -an age at which consequences are minimal. They may not have known the exact age under CO law, but it's likely they'd have realized that 9 is too young. At least they'd have had a pretty good hunch 9 was too young.
Yes it would be humiliating to have a son who killed your daughter, but a BDI scenario supposes the Rs to be normal loving parents, so their top priority would be getting help for BR - help he'd obviously need, after what he'd done. They'd perhaps prefer that the matter be handled quietly, but nothing about staging an intruder molestation/murder, then calling friends over just after calling 911 helps the situation stay quiet. The Rs put on a very big production. They didn't want things handled quietly.
I'm sorry I wasn't clearer on that point. I wasn't saying the Rs would want him in foster care, just that foster care was about the biggest problem they were facing. I don't think they'd have run the risk they did just to keep BR out of foster care - or a mental facility- for a relatively short period of time.
They'd probably prefer he went to their own shrink - quietly - but again, the worst they were facing was having him see a state appointed shrink, more or less publicly. That could be embarrasing, but it's hardly worth obstructing justice to avoid.
On age limitations, I believe it's 12 for this type of felony in CO -
www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_dir/olls/PDF/ WHEN%20A%20CHILD%20CAN%20BE%20TRIED%20AS%20AN%20ADULT.pdf -
Not that it matters much, as BR was 9. So whether 10 or 12, Burke was too young to be tried. Which means covering up for Burke wasn't very likely.
I take everyone's point about the law in Colorado for under 10s, but would the Ramseys have known that? Even if there were no charges brought, the hunmiliation of having your son kill your daughter would be great.
Most people know there is an age below which children can't be tried as an adult -an age at which consequences are minimal. They may not have known the exact age under CO law, but it's likely they'd have realized that 9 is too young. At least they'd have had a pretty good hunch 9 was too young.
Yes it would be humiliating to have a son who killed your daughter, but a BDI scenario supposes the Rs to be normal loving parents, so their top priority would be getting help for BR - help he'd obviously need, after what he'd done. They'd perhaps prefer that the matter be handled quietly, but nothing about staging an intruder molestation/murder, then calling friends over just after calling 911 helps the situation stay quiet. The Rs put on a very big production. They didn't want things handled quietly.
Ames
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I don't think that he knew anything about it. If he had of, then he would have known what his mom was doing when she called 911 and told them about the RN, and he wouldn't have had to say..."What did you find?" after over hearing her tell the operator that she had found the note. I do believe that there were probably alot of noise and yelling going on, that most likely woke Burke up. That's why he had no idea what was going on. IMO He came in, in the middle of Patsy's phone call to 911. The Ramsey's told him to go back to bed...so that he would be there when the police arrived. And they could say that Burke didn't hear or see a thing.
The only way some of this makes sense is if BR really had nothing to do with her death, but was known by his parents to have been sexually experimenting with his little sister (and shown the word "incest" to explain why it was wrong). Then- if it was a PDI, she may have been worried that evidence of what BR had been doing would be discovered, and maybe he'd be under suspicion for killing her. Then I can see PR staging a coverup to protect her son.
Just to play devil's advocate here, devwat12, they might not have known that. Don't forget: PR came from the South. They go a lot tougher on killers down there, even children. Just saying.
I am sure they had to know how traumatic the whole thing would be for their son even if no charges were filed. If it became public, it would have ruined his life. And as you can see, he has "gotten on with his life" which he himself told a psychologist he wanted to do shortly after the death of his sister.
Knowing what I do about the Rs, they would never have allowed it to be known that BR was involved in the death of his sister. No way. They'd get him help privately, but there'd still be no admission of guilt. IF it was the case that BDI, I feel the coverup would be the only action the Rs would take. They'd lost JBR already, and they'd never risk their only surviving child.
Knowing what I do about the Rs, they would never have allowed it to be known that BR was involved in the death of his sister. No way. They'd get him help privately, but there'd still be no admission of guilt. IF it was the case that BDI, I feel the coverup would be the only action the Rs would take. They'd lost JBR already, and they'd never risk their only surviving child.
DeeDee249,
So Burke gets a free pass on killing his sister? Still no medical assistance sought, did one of the parents apply the garrote or was this Burke e.g. who really murdered JonBenet if you think a BDI explains everything? Why bother wiping JonBenet down and redressing her in those size-12's if you intend that some intruder sexually assaulted then garroted her, or even placing her body in location no stranger would know existed. A BDI coverup does not work for me.
.
Humanimal
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I came to Websleuths the very end of 1996, totally for JonBenet case. After taking a two months sabbatical from WS June and July this year, I find myself back here again.
I have not been reading anything in here for nearly a year now. My theory had been sent to those who just may have ability to follow through with my thoughts on the case. After that I washed my hands and mind of the case.
is a sneaky business, and experiences a high dollar volume market.
With olde eyes I am taking another look at this man and how he just may play into the case. Today it seems even more likely than it did in 1997, that there was in fact some connection to the Ramsey business and his choice of travel in 1998.
I will read any responses to this thread, I have no more answers than the millions of other people who are still interested in this case. I would like to speak to his family, he was single, and inquire about where he typically went on VACATION. He was only 42 years old.
http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/senate/6502/primer2/primer9_sideshow.html
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Former Boulder City Spokesman Kelvin McNeill
Died Following Amsterdam Car Accident[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Former Boulder city spokesman Kelvin McNeill died August 18, 1998 in an Amsterdam hospital from injuries suffered in an accident with a taxi on August 7.
McNeill, 28, was a city spokesman in Boulder for seven years until he left in April 1997 to become director of communications and community outreach for the Gill Foundation, a Colorado Springs-based organization that gives grants and gifts to primarily gay and lesbian causes across the country. McNeill gained national prominence when he adroitly fielded questions about the JonBenét Ramsey case in the first few months after the murder.[/FONT]
From this link
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=149495;article=119695;
Scroll down about 1/3 of the page to this:
(42) Kevin McNeill, 28, died August 18, 1998 in an Amsterdam hospital from injuries suffered in an accident with a taxi on August 7th. He was the City spokesman in Boulder for seven years until he left in April, 1997 (just three short months after the murder of JonBenet) to become director of communications and community outreach for the Gill Foundation, a Colorado Springs-based organization that gives grants and gifts to primarily gay and lesbian causes across the country. McNeill gained national prominence when he adroitly fielded questions about the JonBenét Ramsey case in the first few months after the murder. He also openly and often expressed sever doubts about the Ramsey's innocence as well as criticizing the Boulder County DA, accusing him ostensibly of obstruction of justice. His death has been reported by many who had witnessed the accident as a 'hit' - his vehicle having been forced head-on into a taxi; a classic MI6 tactic.
-->>IF my memory does not fail me here, Access Graphics had an office in Amsterdam. My question is what was he doing in Amsterdam such a short time after his exodus with Boulder? Was he on vacation, and why would he go to Amsterdam? Had he gone to Amsterdam in the years prior to leaving his Boulder office after seven years working as spokesman for Boulder?
What did he know and when did he know IT?
I do think McNeill is a big key to this entire murder case, he is dead now of course. Surely someone knows the answers to my questions here.
====================>>
From this link below.
http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=36&contentid=3887&page=2
(13) The William Morris Agency has close ties to NBC News. This Agency is responsible for placing the likes of stooges Tom Brokow and Brian Williams at NBC News. It was NBC which broke the current JonBenet Ramsey story.
The William Morris Agency also represents up and coming child models and had solicited a contract from the Ramsey's for the 'services' of JonBenet. It should also be noted that in early 1996 the Denver Police had been investigating a Denver Child-
John Ramsey ran a company called Access Graphics with offices in the Philippines, Amsterdam, Holland and Denver, Colorado. Access Graphics did business with the Wm. Morris Agency and had service contracts directly with what is commonly known as Iran Contra. Access Graphics major bank accounts were parked at the noted Iran Contra money-laundry Silverado Savings and Loan and administered by none other than Director of Silverado, Neil Bush, George W. Bush's brother. Ramsey was also on a list of witnesses never subpoenaed by former Iran Contra Prosecutor Lawrence Walsh. It can now be reported that Ramsey had either knowingly, or unknowingly, pimped his daughter out as a prostitute to the Wm. Morris Agency who were taking these child 'Models' and using them to provide sexual services for pedophile's in Government, Industry and so on in addition to their Modeling shows (shows often displayed in video footage in the many news specials on JonBenet's murder).
John Ramsey must stay silent given his position as a Bush-Clinton crime syndicate asset or risk having the truth come out about this entire, horrid affair. Something he has done quite well up to this juncture.
(14) Search warrants also turned up nude photos of the Ramsey children - and not baby pictures.
(15) In the three years prior to her death, Jonbenet made 33 trips to the pediatrician, diagnosis was "yeast infections". Yeast infections for a child of four to six years old? I've been told that is not possible.
10% rule in posting applies ---->>>Much more at this link, but is it too much of a stretch on my part to think that McNeill, given his new Position in Colorado Springs, and his past as Boulder spokesperson, would or could have gone to Amsterdam to find evidence to point at the Ramseys themselves?
I did a short search for what I had read early on about McNeill, and that coverage said he was standing by the taxi with the taxi door open and the driver took off knocking him to the ground. Driver said he thought the door was closed. Yet from the link I provided above, August 18, 1998 it says"his vehicle having been forced head-on into a taxi; a classic MI6 tactic." Is this just another case of bad reporting? HOW did he die ?, and the better question is HOW come he died at all and why was he in Amsterdam?
.
His Company NameI came to Websleuths the very end of 1996, totally for JonBenet case. After taking a two months sabbatical from WS June and July this year, I find myself back here again.
I have not been reading anything in here for nearly a year now. My theory had been sent to those who just may have ability to follow through with my thoughts on the case. After that I washed my hands and mind of the case.
With olde eyes I am taking another look at this man and how he just may play into the case. Today it seems even more likely than it did in 1997, that there was in fact some connection to the Ramsey business and his choice of travel in 1998.
I will read any responses to this thread, I have no more answers than the millions of other people who are still interested in this case. I would like to speak to his family, he was single, and inquire about where he typically went on VACATION. He was only 42 years old.
http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/senate/6502/primer2/primer9_sideshow.html
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Former Boulder City Spokesman Kelvin McNeill
Died Following Amsterdam Car Accident[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Former Boulder city spokesman Kelvin McNeill died August 18, 1998 in an Amsterdam hospital from injuries suffered in an accident with a taxi on August 7.
McNeill, 28, was a city spokesman in Boulder for seven years until he left in April 1997 to become director of communications and community outreach for the Gill Foundation, a Colorado Springs-based organization that gives grants and gifts to primarily gay and lesbian causes across the country. McNeill gained national prominence when he adroitly fielded questions about the JonBenét Ramsey case in the first few months after the murder.[/FONT]
From this link
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=149495;article=119695;
Scroll down about 1/3 of the page to this:
(42) Kevin McNeill, 28, died August 18, 1998 in an Amsterdam hospital from injuries suffered in an accident with a taxi on August 7th. He was the City spokesman in Boulder for seven years until he left in April, 1997 (just three short months after the murder of JonBenet) to become director of communications and community outreach for the Gill Foundation, a Colorado Springs-based organization that gives grants and gifts to primarily gay and lesbian causes across the country. McNeill gained national prominence when he adroitly fielded questions about the JonBenét Ramsey case in the first few months after the murder. He also openly and often expressed sever doubts about the Ramsey's innocence as well as criticizing the Boulder County DA, accusing him ostensibly of obstruction of justice. His death has been reported by many who had witnessed the accident as a 'hit' - his vehicle having been forced head-on into a taxi; a classic MI6 tactic.
-->>IF my memory does not fail me here, Access Graphics had an office in Amsterdam. My question is what was he doing in Amsterdam such a short time after his exodus with Boulder? Was he on vacation, and why would he go to Amsterdam? Had he gone to Amsterdam in the years prior to leaving his Boulder office after seven years working as spokesman for Boulder?
What did he know and when did he know IT?
I do think McNeill is a big key to this entire murder case, he is dead now of course. Surely someone knows the answers to my questions here.
====================>>
From this link below.
http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=36&contentid=3887&page=2
(13) The William Morris Agency has close ties to NBC News. This Agency is responsible for placing the likes of stooges Tom Brokow and Brian Williams at NBC News. It was NBC which broke the current JonBenet Ramsey story.
The William Morris Agency also represents up and coming child models and had solicited a contract from the Ramsey's for the 'services' of JonBenet. It should also be noted that in early 1996 the Denver Police had been investigating a Denver Child-
John Ramsey ran a company called Access Graphics with offices in the Philippines, Amsterdam, Holland and Denver, Colorado. Access Graphics did business with the Wm. Morris Agency and had service contracts directly with what is commonly known as Iran Contra. Access Graphics major bank accounts were parked at the noted Iran Contra money-laundry Silverado Savings and Loan and administered by none other than Director of Silverado, Neil Bush, George W. Bush's brother. Ramsey was also on a list of witnesses never subpoenaed by former Iran Contra Prosecutor Lawrence Walsh. It can now be reported that Ramsey had either knowingly, or unknowingly, pimped his daughter out as a prostitute to the Wm. Morris Agency who were taking these child 'Models' and using them to provide sexual services for pedophile's in Government, Industry and so on in addition to their Modeling shows (shows often displayed in video footage in the many news specials on JonBenet's murder).
John Ramsey must stay silent given his position as a Bush-Clinton crime syndicate asset or risk having the truth come out about this entire, horrid affair. Something he has done quite well up to this juncture.
(14) Search warrants also turned up nude photos of the Ramsey children - and not baby pictures.
(15) In the three years prior to her death, Jonbenet made 33 trips to the pediatrician, diagnosis was "yeast infections". Yeast infections for a child of four to six years old? I've been told that is not possible.
10% rule in posting applies ---->>>Much more at this link, but is it too much of a stretch on my part to think that McNeill, given his new Position in Colorado Springs, and his past as Boulder spokesperson, would or could have gone to Amsterdam to find evidence to point at the Ramseys themselves?
I did a short search for what I had read early on about McNeill, and that coverage said he was standing by the taxi with the taxi door open and the driver took off knocking him to the ground. Driver said he thought the door was closed. Yet from the link I provided above, August 18, 1998 it says"his vehicle having been forced head-on into a taxi; a classic MI6 tactic." Is this just another case of bad reporting? HOW did he die ?, and the better question is HOW come he died at all and why was he in Amsterdam?
.
says it ALL
Access.
Graphics.
ACCESS.
It's sick, in my eyes injuatbsee how sick this man is.
Amsterdam, Philippines!
And also that hotbed of pedophilia in the 90s and Maybe to this day.
Denver Colorado.
Look who moved in on the area at that time.... all those...fat cats.
Was her murder filmed?
Was it an adventurous Christmas Special? Or one gone wrong?
RIP ?
Jonbenet will do that when her killer is dead.
Humanimal
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Even though he lives in Vegas now with his JB lookalike wife who designs costumes... showgirl, cowgirl...
icedtea4me
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