Another Person of interest - HOW?

[UKGuy]

I think you could argue that the restraint portion of the garotte was staging...but the cord itself was embedded in her neck while she was alive...Wecht makes the case that she did suffer tremendously during this attack.

twinkiesmom,

I think you could argue that the restraint portion of the garotte was staging

I reckon so. The whole wine-cellar crime-scene was deliberately staged, everything down to JonBenet's size-12's, was intended by the stager to fool people into thinking that JonBenet had been the victim of a non-domestic homicide. This was the basis for Lou Smit's misguided intruder theory.

but the cord itself was embedded in her neck while she was alive.

Yes, but did the stager know this or even care? The presumed object of the exercise was to present JonBenet as the victim of some psychopathic intruder. Yet missing from her neck is a non-circumferential abraded and contused ligature furrow. That is in most homicides when someone is garroting a victim, the upward pull of pressure creates an asymmetric ligature furrow. This is more noticable in hanging suicides where it comes to resemble a V on the neck. Yet JonBenet's ligature furrow is circumferential and practically symmetric with little deviation from the normal, except possibly at the point of contact with the knotting?

Wecht makes the case that she did suffer tremendously during this attack.

Yes she had numerous injuries to her head, which were invisible at first sight, but her killer must have been aware of them. Those head injuries are on par with a vehicle collision. That is you do not fall over, slip up and fracture your skull as outlined in the autopsy report.

Without the acute sexual assault and prior molestation a PDI theory might explain everything nicely. So why would you stage an intruder homicide yet hide the sexual assault?


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[Chrishope]

I reckon so. The whole wine-cellar crime-scene was deliberately staged, everything down to JonBenet's size-12's, was intended by the stager to fool people into thinking that JonBenet had been the victim of a non-domestic homicide. This was the basis for Lou Smit's misguided intruder theory.

I've always suspected money was the reason for his theory.

 

[Stacy O]

Sorry, new around here but, I have read some of these posts and just wanted to let you know that I have 2 daughters who did get yeast infections when they were 3, 4 and 5ish. Apparently, it's fairly common. The pediatrician did prescribe an adults dose of the rx....the only difference was I was not to use the vaginal applicator only apply to the outside of the vagina. Just thought I'd let you know.

I might be wrong,but I thought Thomas said it was the school nurse? And I thought he was implying something he couldn't reveal (or suspected) when he said it was 'always on a Monday' that those visits occurred.

yea,I agree,Dr. B. could have rewritten the records,who knows.he might have been stalling for time to do that when he hid them.
But I think the 33 visits were from birth and up,so that would have inc. some well baby checkups and shots as well.
The whole yeast infection thing is suspect ..she may very well have had some,but it could also be a cover for something else...vaginal injuries perhaps? If there were scripts written for a yeast infection,that could be verified at a pharmacy,then it would be more believable.
All I recall Dr. B. saying was that he recommended plain water baths for JB's 'irritaton' from not wiping well.(which is odd,I would think a baby bath product would be gentle and get her cleaner,thus preventing more irritation).
I do recall reading Patsy had frantically called Dr. B. 3x within 10 mins,in mid-Dec.,for which she couldn't recall 'why'.Surely she did know why.

 

[UKGuy]

I assume this refers to the insinuation that the sexual abuse of JBR was something known and accepted


If this is the meaning behind "a new low for JBR forums", I agree that there is not a shred of evidence that JBR's abuse was known and accepted or kept silent (other than by the abuser) In fact, imo, the fact that PR took JBR to the doctor repeatedly indicates to me that she had no idea of the abuse. I do not believe that, had she been aware of the abuse and was simply keeping silent about it, she would not then risk having Dr. B discover the abuse, which was a very real risk given the nature of the complaints of repeated infections in JBR.

To go one step further, if you believe the murder is connected to the abuse (which I do) then it is difficult to see PR as the abuser, given that she is the one who took JBR to the doctor. Therefore, imo, PR neither perpetrated the abuse, nor did she know about the abuse.

imo

sandraladeda,

I agree that there is not a shred of evidence that JBR's abuse was known and accepted or kept silent (other than by the abuser) In fact, imo, the fact that PR took JBR to the doctor repeatedly indicates to me that she had no idea of the abuse. I do not believe that, had she been aware of the abuse and was simply keeping silent about it, she would not then risk having Dr. B discover the abuse, which was a very real risk given the nature of the complaints of repeated infections in JBR.

You may not believe it, but this is not the same as it being false. Dr Beuf is on record stating he never investigated JonBenet internally. He probably simply responded to Patsy's list of symptoms and prescribed as requested, he was being paid for his services, not for his opinion!

To go one step further, if you believe the murder is connected to the abuse (which I do) then it is difficult to see PR as the abuser, given that she is the one who took JBR to the doctor. Therefore, imo, PR neither perpetrated the abuse, nor did she know about the abuse.

Patsy may or may not have abused JonBenet, but that she was ignorant to JonBenet's molestation is in retrospect difficult to substantiate. JonBenet's lifestyle was, from an early early age, dysfunctional, her pageant training superceded her schooling, prior to her death someone with access was molesting her.

Patsy knew, this is why she lied about JonBenet's photograph collection, the pineapple bowl, and the placing of size-12 underwear into JonBenet's panty drawer, never mind defending John against claims of incest.

If Patsy is so ignorant how come all these strategic lies?


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[UKGuy]

Sorry, new around here but, I have read some of these posts and just wanted to let you know that I have 2 daughters who did get yeast infections when they were 3, 4 and 5ish. Apparently, it's fairly common. The pediatrician did prescribe an adults dose of the rx....the only difference was I was not to use the vaginal applicator only apply to the outside of the vagina. Just thought I'd let you know.

Stacy ,
Thanks for the info. I reckon Patsy was probably told something similar, also Dr. Beuf never investigated he just listened to Patsy's symptoms, possibly looked externally at JonBenet, then prescribed. Dr. Beuf was on a monthly retainer, the Ramsey's paid his wages, he was not employed to ask questions.


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[BBB167893]

Welcome aboard, Stacy O.

I see what you mean. But what you have to understand is it's a lot worse than just some infections.

UKGuy, thanks for clearing that up. What I was saying about Patsy's background is that it's been wondered if she was abused herself, and if so, how would she have reacted if she knew about it? Would she have figured it was no big deal, or would it have made her "snap?" Like I said over on the "book title" thread, (And keep in mind I'm purely spitballing here) when she struck out, who was she swinging at? Her daughter? Her husband? Her mom? Her dad?

 

[Toltec]

As a former pediatric nurse....Doctor's rarely performed internal vaginal exams. Checkups involved examining only the exterior vaginal area. Pediatricians usually do this very fast as not to traumatize the patient. When a child suffers chronic UTI's, an internal exam is performed.

My daughter is 3 1/2 years old and she is constantly touching herself causing redness and sometimes swelling. She also masturbates. I discussed this with her Pediatrician and he said that is normal behavior in some toddlers but masturbation is seen more in boys than girls.

When children reach the ages of 5 and 6 years, they are really curious about the opposite sex....that is when they "play doctor".

9-10 year-olds usually are usually not interested in the opposite sex and that is why I believe it was not Burke who molested JonBenet that night or three nights before.

 

[DeeDee249]

Toltec, I understand what you mean, but although children of that age (9-10ish) prefer to spend their time with their own sex, (that phase lasts just a few years), kids of that age, especially boys, are very interested in sex. There has always been a sexual curiosity between siblings of the opposite sex, and sexual exploration is not unusual. I can well imagine parents of an older boy (say, 9-10) who was found to be "exploring" his little sister (say, 6) might very well tell him about "incest" or even point out the definition in a dictionary.
HEY! Didn't that very thing happen? Yes, I think it did.

 

[UKGuy]

Welcome aboard, Stacy O.

I see what you mean. But what you have to understand is it's a lot worse than just some infections.

UKGuy, thanks for clearing that up. What I was saying about Patsy's background is that it's been wondered if she was abused herself, and if so, how would she have reacted if she knew about it? Would she have figured it was no big deal, or would it have made her "snap?" Like I said over on the "book title" thread, (And keep in mind I'm purely spitballing here) when she struck out, who was she swinging at? Her daughter? Her husband? Her mom? Her dad?

SuperDave,
I reckon her attitude towards introducing JonBenet to pageants and the associated training regime, at such an early age, might alert you to any reaction.

Normally people in the Ramsey's wealth category have their children educated privately at institutions that offer social distinctions not available to those less well enumerated.

Patsy would have considered it, no big deal, to elevate pageant training above that of any formal education, note JonBenet's public performances to her classmates. A sure sign the message was hitting its mark. After all Patsy herself with her climb up the social ladder would have had any doubts or negative thoughts dispelled with her marriage to John Ramsey, and her subsequent nouveau riche lifestyle complete with public house displays, which must have had the curtain twitchers higher up the income bracket, looking on with disaproval?

That Patsy whacked JonBenet by mistake with her intended target being John, is a variation on her reaction to JonBenet wetting the bed, both are possibilities. But the former would hardly have Patsy in the dock on first degree homicide charges. All Patsy need do is tell the truth, it would be John that was vilified and asked to face the consequences, Patsy would be seen as a victim. In those circumstances the last thing Patsy might do is publicly defend John against allegations of incest, by citing Nedra's presence.

If Patsy had not schooled JonBenet in the pageant circuit, and given her a normal upbringing, all intended to avoid any negative consequences that she attached to her own upbringing. Then I could see Patsy in anger, morally outraged on discovering JonBenet's abuse hitting out. Yet Patsy seemed comfortable in her lifestyle, her journeys to New York, visits to the theatre, shopping sessions, charged to the cards and delivered by special mail couriers. Naturally JonBenet was brought along to sample some cultural delights not afforded in Boulder.

Your theses on Patsy's anger may be mistaken, she may have been content with the cards life had dealt her, she may have even considered her own daughter could fare no worse than endure an upbringing similar to her own. Any anger directed at JonBenet may indeed have been as a consequence of JonBenet not doing as she was told either in the role of a pageant princess of surrogate wife. Not wearing matching clothes comes to mind here?


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[rashomon]

Patsy knew, this is why she lied about JonBenet's photograph collection, the pineapple bowl, and the placing of size-12 underwear into JonBenet's panty drawer, never mind defending John against claims of incest.

If Patsy is so ignorant how come all these strategic lies?

Patsy also very likely wrote the ransom note and tied the cord around JonBenet's neck (the fiber evidence indicates this).

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy also very likely wrote the ransom note and tied the cord around JonBenet's neck (the fiber evidence indicates this).

rashomon,
Quite possibly, but her lies regarding the size-12's are culpable. Also we all tend to forget her fibers under the duct tape, she is strongly implicated in the staging, but JonBenet's death, that is another question?

Just why would a mother who had just killed her daughter accidentally, stage a homicide and mask acute molestation?


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[Solace]

rashomon,
Quite possibly, but her lies regarding the size-12's are culpable. Also we all tend to forget her fibers under the duct tape, she is strongly implicated in the staging, but JonBenet's death, that is another question?

Just why would a mother who had just killed her daughter accidentally, stage a homicide and mask acute molestation?

.

I think she handled the garrotte but I think John made it. She also handled the tape and probably put it over her face.

Okay, that's it, you have to be one crazy &**cker to do this. I still cannot even imagine how they got through this night. Talk about self-preservation - It is incredible.

 

[UKGuy]

I think she handled the garrotte but I think John made it. She also handled the tape and probably put it over her face.

Okay, that's it, you have to be one crazy &**cker to do this. I still cannot even imagine how they got through this night. Talk about self-preservation - It is incredible.

Solace,
I agree Patsy handled the garrote, possibly even the duct tape, also it has to be a joint effort since some stuff is missing.

I reckon a previous staging probably by John was changed e.g. the broken window, the stuff from JAR's bedroom now down in the basement. For some reason Patsy convinced John to revise his plans, probably offering to author the ransom note and modify some staging?

Sure looks like they had a crazy night, John takes his clothes off, yet Patsy elects to keep hers on. Your leaving on vacation but decide to wear the same clothes you have already wore to a party, now why would you do that?

I wonder if we will ever see any of the evidence mountain thats alleged to be locked away?


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[rashomon]

I think she handled the garrotte but I think John made it. She also handled the tape and probably put it over her face.

Okay, that's it, you have to be one crazy &**cker to do this. I still cannot even imagine how they got through this night. Talk about self-preservation - It is incredible.

I believe that under the smooth surface, they were both callous sociopaths which also shows in that they were prepared to throw innocent people under the bus, and would not have cared if one of these people had been wrongly convicted. Which, given the investigative fiasco, could well have happened.

 

[BBB167893]

SuperDave,
I reckon her attitude towards introducing JonBenet to pageants and the associated training regime, at such an early age, might alert you to any reaction.

Normally people in the Ramsey's wealth category have their children educated privately at institutions that offer social distinctions not available to those less well enumerated.

Patsy would have considered it, no big deal, to elevate pageant training above that of any formal education, note JonBenet's public performances to her classmates. A sure sign the message was hitting its mark. After all Patsy herself with her climb up the social ladder would have had any doubts or negative thoughts dispelled with her marriage to John Ramsey, and her subsequent nouveau riche lifestyle complete with public house displays, which must have had the curtain twitchers higher up the income bracket, looking on with disapproval?

That Patsy whacked JonBenet by mistake with her intended target being John, is a variation on her reaction to JonBenet wetting the bed, both are possibilities. But the former would hardly have Patsy in the dock on first degree homicide charges. All Patsy need do is tell the truth, it would be John that was vilified and asked to face the consequences, Patsy would be seen as a victim. In those circumstances the last thing Patsy might do is publicly defend John against allegations of incest, by citing Nedra's presence.

If Patsy had not schooled JonBenet in the pageant circuit, and given her a normal upbringing, all intended to avoid any negative consequences that she attached to her own upbringing. Then I could see Patsy in anger, morally outraged on discovering JonBenet's abuse hitting out. Yet Patsy seemed comfortable in her lifestyle, her journeys to New York, visits to the theatre, shopping sessions, charged to the cards and delivered by special mail couriers. Naturally JonBenet was brought along to sample some cultural delights not afforded in Boulder.

Your theses on Patsy's anger may be mistaken, she may have been content with the cards life had dealt her, she may have even considered her own daughter could fare no worse than endure an upbringing similar to her own. Any anger directed at JonBenet may indeed have been as a consequence of JonBenet not doing as she was told either in the role of a pageant princess of surrogate wife. Not wearing matching clothes comes to mind here?


.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying she caught him in anything. I'm saying that JB may have let it slip that night and Patsy freaked.

And even if she were dealing with unresolved anger at her childhood, she may still have put JB in those pageants as a way to finally win her mother's love.

Like I said, to a dark place this line of thought will carry us.

 

[BBB167893]

rashomon,
Quite possibly, but her lies regarding the size-12's are culpable. Also we all tend to forget her fibers under the duct tape, she is strongly implicated in the staging, but JonBenet's death, that is another question?

Just why would a mother who had just killed her daughter accidentally, stage a homicide and mask acute molestation?


.

I have an idea about that: she wanted her princess to be as spectacular in death as she was in life, but just spitballing.

 

[DeeDee249]

I have an idea about that: she wanted her princess to be as spectacular in death as she was in life, but just spitballing.

Certainly the image of tiny JBR in her white coffin, pageant dress and tiara, full make-up, blonde curls shining once again (what a difference from just a week or do earlier- the autopsy photos showing the matted hair, pale skin, and awful ligature marks) combined with the world-wide coverage and TV camera rolling makes a spectacular death a reality.

As far as any evidence that was never found - panties, cord, roll of tape, etc. Let's put Aunt P under some truth serum- we'll find it all.

 

[BBB167893]

Certainly the image of tiny JBR in her white coffin, pageant dress and tiara, full make-up, blonde curls shining once again (what a difference from just a week or do earlier- the autopsy photos showing the matted hair, pale skin, and awful ligature marks) combined with the world-wide coverage and TV camera rolling makes a spectacular death a reality.

As far as any evidence that was never found - panties, cord, roll of tape, etc. Let's put Aunt P under some truth serum- we'll find it all.

What I meant was that it wouldn't do to have a pageant princess killed in an ordinary, garden-variety domestic incident. She deserved better. A child beauty queen killed in her own home by a pedophile monster? How cool is that!

Just spitballing.

 

[Ames]

Certainly the image of tiny JBR in her white coffin, pageant dress and tiara, full make-up, blonde curls shining once again (what a difference from just a week or do earlier- the autopsy photos showing the matted hair, pale skin, and awful ligature marks) combined with the world-wide coverage and TV camera rolling makes a spectacular death a reality.

As far as any evidence that was never found - panties, cord, roll of tape, etc. Let's put Aunt P under some truth serum- we'll find it all.

Not to mention that JB died on the most celebrated holiday of the year...Christmas. I wouldn't put it past Patsy, to put that date on the tombstone, no matter her true day of death. It could have been Dec. 17th, and she probably STILL would have put the 25th, because of the significance...and the attention given to it.

I agree...Aunt Spammy, knows alot more than she is letting on. SHE needs to take a lie detecter test.

 

[DeeDee249]

The trouble is that after this many years, it gets easier to lie without stress, and that defeats the whole concept of the lie-detector test. And some people are always able to bluff the test anyway, that's why they can't be used in court.