Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[DeeDee249]

That is exactly what I thought about Casey's mother. That she was lying to protect her daughter- and it was SO OBVIOUS I can't believe the stupidity of the jurors who actually bought it. And you know what? One day she'll die and have to face her little granddaughter that she supposedly loved. Loved? Maybe- but not enough. Not enough to tell the truth.

 

[SweetT]

So whats the new info? I didnt listen to the radio show any recaps etc?

 

[SapphireSteel]

That is exactly what I thought about Casey's mother. That she was lying to protect her daughter- and it was SO OBVIOUS I can't believe the stupidity of the jurors who actually bought it. And you know what? One day she'll die and have to face her little granddaughter that she supposedly loved. Loved? Maybe- but not enough. Not enough to tell the truth.

I don't know hardly anything about that case, but isn't that kind of like Sophie's Choice? I mean, Casey was still her daughter. Her instinct would still be to protect her, right? So it would be a choice between a live daughter and a deceased granddaughter...I can't blame her.

 

[Chrishope]

I don't know hardly anything about that case, but isn't that kind of like Sophie's Choice? I mean, Casey was still her daughter. Her instinct would still be to protect her, right? So it would be a choice between a live daughter and a deceased granddaughter...I can't blame her.

A live daughter old enough to be charged with a crime.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't know hardly anything about that case, but isn't that kind of like Sophie's Choice? I mean, Casey was still her daughter. Her instinct would still be to protect her, right? So it would be a choice between a live daughter and a deceased granddaughter...I can't blame her.

I CAN blame her. And the courts should have blamed her too. She LIED under oath. Her daughter KILLED her granddaughter for God's sake. Its not like she just wrote a bad check or stole a car.
So because Caley is dead she's worthless?
Sophie's Choice was one she was FORCED to make- forced to choose which of her children should be murdered in a death camp. Though it was a fictional movie, i am sure horrors like that happened often there. As a mother, I cannot imagine having to choose which of my children should be killed. It is insulting to women who experienced the horrors of the Holocaust to be compared to this woman (Cindy Anthony) who LIED to protect a murderer who happened to be her daughter. There was no CHOICE to be made by Cindy Anthony of who should be killed- Casey or Caley. Casey made that decision.

 

[neesaki]

A live daughter old enough to be charged with a crime.

Yeah, a live narcissistic, sociopath too, imo. Remember what the mother did to her daughter in the old movie, "The Bad Seed"? And she loved her daughter very much, but she came to realize what she was.

 

[neesaki]

He did hit JB in the head (face, actually) with a golf club. Patsy took her to a hospital and she saw a plastic surgeon for that.

BR & JB had been caught on more than one occasion "playing doctor". On one occasion, the housekeeper found them under a blanket in his room (with a flashlight?) and both kids were irate upon being "discovered". The shouted at the housekeeper to "get OUT".
When I first started here, there was a poster called "Blue Crab" who was a firm BDI. I wasn't, as a matter of fact, BR was the last person I had on my short list, Patsy, JR, JAR and DP being also on it. But as the years have gone and different theories and come and go, I definitely moved BR up a few notches on that list. It fits some pieces of the puzzle together for me- the biggest piece is WHY Patsy would write that note (because she surely did) and why parents would cover up this crime. I can think of NO one else, not even DP, who would have gotten such a pass. But I can see them covering up for their son(s).
I think BR could have bashed her on the head when she screamed because he panicked and wanted to shut her up fast. If they were "playing doctor" in a dark room, the flashlight may have been right there. Having silenced her, she would have crumpled to the floor, possibly having a seizure, and never regained consciousness again. Hearing the scream (which tests showed COULD be heard from the parents' third-floor bedroom, even from the basement but especially if it happened on the first or second floor) and when they came running they found an unconscious dying JB. They sent BR to his room and told him to stay there until they came for him, and he complied, not realizing how seriously he had hurt his sister. When he heard them than morning yelling "help me Jesus" etc and running around the house, he came down to the kitchen and was heard on the 911 tape in the background.
I do not think BR played any part at all in the staging. That was ALL the parents and I believe both took part.
I have an alternate theory which involves BR and JAR and possibly DS.

I know I have gotten a fairly stale on this case and am trying to catch up, but is it a possibility that BR is the one who was doing the 'molesting' if he was seriously into playing doctor? As in, with the use of foreign objects versus what is normally considered 'sexual molestation' ? I've always wondered too if he could have gotten some strange ideas off the internet and had made attempts at some of them.

 

[DeeDee249]

I know I have gotten a fairly stale on this case and am trying to catch up, but is it a possibility that BR is the one who was doing the 'molesting' if he was seriously into playing doctor? As in, with the use of foreign objects versus what is normally considered 'sexual molestation' ? I've always wondered too if he could have gotten some strange ideas off the internet and had made attempts at some of them.

As you catch up on the case, you'll find that many people do consider BR responsible for the molestation and head bash. Some also feel he did the staging, but I for one, do not think he had anything to do with the coverup or staging of his sister's body. That was the parents all the way. The note was written by an adult, not a grade schooler, and I believe he was ruled out as a handwriting match.
Kids play doctor, even with foreign objects. But sometimes someone gets hurt. And sometimes the kid who gets hurt bleeds- and screams. If you connect the dots all the way to the end, it is simple, really. Molestation takes place in a dark room, either JB's or BRs, with a flashlight used-Molestation goes too far- vaginal injury causes screaming and bleeding- handy flashlight used to bash screaming kid to shut her up fast. Parents find collapsed kid, bleeding from the vagina. We know the rest.
BTW, if she were strangled first, as a sex game, she WOULD have struggled. There was no evidence at all she was tied up in a way that would actually have restrained her- there were no marks at all on her wrists or legs. Her face would have been much more swollen, and tongue would be more protruding. JB'S lower face, mouth and tongue are clearly visible in one of the crime photos. Even though the photo is cropped, you can see that her face and tongue (though visible) are not swollen the way they would have been if she was strangled to death and then bashed as staging. For one, the head bash was not even visible- no scalp laceration, no bleeding (except UNDER the scalp- where it was only discovered at the autopsy). That strangulation was done on a dying/unconscious child.

 

[acmeintuitiveenergy]

The son did it, the father covered it up, the mother wrote about it. Flip the Father,

 

[Whaleshark]

Good luck flipping the father. Even if his son told everything that happened and came clean... JR would say that Burke was coerced, brainwashed, sick, and mistaken....

And if that didn't work, he'd blame Patsy for it all, claim he was protecting her because she was very sick, he had no choice, and was just doing what his lawyers advised him to do.

 

[wonderllama]

JR is in a very cosy position at the moment.
As I've said before, Patsy's death was the best thing for his own defence.

 

[UKGuy]

I know I have gotten a fairly stale on this case and am trying to catch up, but is it a possibility that BR is the one who was doing the 'molesting' if he was seriously into playing doctor? As in, with the use of foreign objects versus what is normally considered 'sexual molestation' ? I've always wondered too if he could have gotten some strange ideas off the internet and had made attempts at some of them.

neesaki,
This is a possibility. The housekeeper has reported walking in on Burke and JonBenet with them under bedcovers, and that she was shouted at to leave the room. Also JonBenet shared Burkes bed on occassions.

BDI is the most consistent RDI theory, and taken with some of Kolars revelations, it might just be something along these lines happened?


.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I don't really know where to put this, but I came across a conversation on FFJ about the Bonita papers and how many bruises and abrasions JonBenet had.

It was said that Pasty chose a sleeveless dress for Jonbenet and asked John if JonBenet had bruises on her arms with John saying No and that Pasty asked again. It was also pointed out that how John would of known if she had any because the last time he saw her was was under the Christmas tree after he brought her up from the basement. She had the white long sleeved top on over the long johns.



My question is, was Pasty worried about the bruising we saw on the photo's and videos? Of them almost in the same place in different ones. Just like the Christmas morning photo of Pasty's hand clamped on JonBenet's right arm. What else did all that make up cover? Was that what Pasty was also afraid of? I can see Pasty a southern woman" saying help me Jesus help me Jesus they going to arrest me.".

 

[txsvicki]

I wonder if john was questioned about or how he explained putti ng his child into a bed that reeked of urine. If jonbenet had wet that bed i don't believe it would have dried that quickly and to start stinking. I don't think she slept in there unless the housekeeper was there to change sheets and they were just that lazy. I don't think she ever made it to bed that night and the ramsey's should have had no problem saying she slept in b.'s spare bed if all was innocent. It's all becoming very clear. So much lying and cover up.

 

[DeeDee249]

I wonder if john was questioned about or how he explained putti ng his child into a bed that reeked of urine. If jonbenet had wet that bed i don't believe it would have dried that quickly and to start stinking. I don't think she slept in there unless the housekeeper was there to change sheets and they were just that lazy. I don't think she ever made it to bed that night and the ramsey's should have had no problem saying she slept in b.'s spare bed if all was innocent. It's all becoming very clear. So much lying and cover up.

We know that the sheets were dry when taken into evidence. LHP was shown a photo of the bed ad told LE they were not the sheets she put on the bed when she was there last, on Dec 23 for the R Christmas party. Creatinine was found- a component of dried urine, so unfortunately we don't know exactly when it happened, but logical theory has LHP changing the sheets on the 23rd, JB wetting again the night of the 23rd, Patsy laundering the sheets and (white blanket in the basement as usual) and remaking the bed with clean sheets but not bothering to go to the basement dryer for the white blanket. Then JB wets the bed again Christmas Eve, and the bed remains that way till LE take the crime photos on the 26th. I believe Patsy even admitted under questioning that the bed was made up without a blanket because no one could have pulled the blanket from the bed and left the bedspread at the foot of the bed intact, which the photo clearly indicated.

 

[UKGuy]

We know that the sheets were dry when taken into evidence. LHP was shown a photo of the bed ad told LE they were not the sheets she put on the bed when she was there last, on Dec 23 for the R Christmas party. Creatinine was found- a component of dried urine, so unfortunately we don't know exactly when it happened, but logical theory has LHP changing the sheets on the 23rd, JB wetting again the night of the 23rd, Patsy laundering the sheets and (white blanket in the basement as usual) and remaking the bed with clean sheets but not bothering to go to the basement dryer for the white blanket. Then JB wets the bed again Christmas Eve, and the bed remains that way till LE take the crime photos on the 26th. I believe Patsy even admitted under questioning that the bed was made up without a blanket because no one could have pulled the blanket from the bed and left the bedspread at the foot of the bed intact, which the photo clearly indicated.

DeeDee249,
Since I reckon the R's fabricated their version of events I've never dwelt on the bed issue for long.

So are you pointing out that Patsy placed JonBenet into a bed that had no blankets, and that she would have known it had been recently been wet?

Also did the R's not admit that JonBenet slept in Burke's room on the 24th, or ws it the 23rd?



.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Since I reckon the R's fabricated their version of events I've never dwelt on the bed issue for long.

So are you pointing out that Patsy placed JonBenet into a bed that had no blankets, and that she would have known it had been recently been wet?

Also did the R's not admit that JonBenet slept in Burke's room on the 24th, or ws it the 23rd?



.

I am not pointing out anything like that. I am not sure JB was placed in that bed at all, though she was probably in the bedroom. And I believe Patsy changed the sheets herself because LHP had not come Christmas Eve or Christmas Day but made the bed without the blanket because she was too busy/stressed/lazy to go to the basement dryer to get it. Patsy knew the bed had no blanket, and by the time that night rolled around, urine from the previous night would have been dry anyway.
There is no way to prove that JB slept in BRs room on the 24th either, though she was said to do that sometimes.
We can't prove the pink pajama bottoms were really in BR's room either. Nothing that I have seen states that definitively.

 

[txsvicki]

I can't see patsy washing any sheets and blanket since there were dried urine stained sheets already on the bed. Did the cops find dry reeking stains that morning or was it much later after they found the body? I don't think they would be dry in the morning and maybe not long enough to be reeking in the afternoon.

 

[midwest mama]

Let's try this. Why implicate yourself if there is not a good reason to do so? If they killed JB, then staging is their only recourse.

If BDI they have two options. One, stage, and thereby implicate themselves. Two, don't stage, don't implicate themselves, and deal with the ramifications of a juvenile killing his sibling.

IMO rational people do not run the risk of life in prison to avoid damaging their standing in the community or their "image".

Chrishope --

Just came into the Forum a few days ago, and trying hard to read all the previous info I can, so coming in to your post with a belated reply.

IMO I do not consider the Ramseys as having been "rational" people at the time of JB's murder, and this is why I feel that way:

They involved their child in what I see as a form of public entertainment that places children in the role of sometimes highly sexually appearing mature individuals - Toddler Beauty Pageants. There are just too many reasons parents put their children in these productions, which I will not bother to list, and most of them are NOT for the benefit of the child's most beneficial development into adulthood. This, to many, would be considered 'irrational' parenting.

Both of the Ramsey's, IMO, displayed several characteristics of Narcissism. Narcissism produces irrational behaviors as viewed by the 'mainstream' populace. I recognize many of the behaviors they demonstrated to the public after spending many years becoming well-versed in narcissistic behavior through personal experience within our family dynamics. Professional involvement in my experience has been a valued teaching process for several in our family.

This is the most difficult aspect in dealing with a Narcissist to understand: They, themselves, cannot accept that anything other than the way they think or feel is acceptable or to be considered. Their image of self-perfection must be maintained at ALL COSTS.

Their failure at ANYTHING, in their own eyes, is not an acceptable concept to them. I know it may seem unimaginable to some people to think a child could be sacrificed for this personna, but believe me, a true narcissist would find a justification for their behavior, strictly within their own mindset, that would enable them to satisfy their need to present an unflawed outward appearance to the world.

It is not in their capacity to accept anything less than their own perception of perfection for themselves. The atrocity of someone in their family murdering another of their own family would have to be made to make it appear they had no involvement in that action. They cannot accept they could be wrong about anything, and simply would explain any proof to the contrary as there being something 'invalid' with the proof.

And, a Narcissist would be very certain, again in their own mind, that no matter what the circumstances, it would not be them that went to prison. They would be certain they were above the law, or had every means available to them to prevent it. And if something DID backfire in this process, well then, it would be because the people involved in the process were flawed and irresponsible enough to cause them to become imprisoned. Therefore, they would have justified, to themselves, they had been victimized, and in their own minds could exonerate themselves of responsibility.

'Nuff said using my non-professional, but personally experienced, background in relationship matters with Narcissistic people. I can say with a clear mind and heart that I am of the opinion the Ramseys would have staged JB's murder if they knew someone in their own family had murdered their daughter, expecting they would have every answer necessary needed to keep them free of any suspicious involvement.

 

[UKGuy]

I am not pointing out anything like that. I am not sure JB was placed in that bed at all, though she was probably in the bedroom. And I believe Patsy changed the sheets herself because LHP had not come Christmas Eve or Christmas Day but made the bed without the blanket because she was too busy/stressed/lazy to go to the basement dryer to get it. Patsy knew the bed had no blanket, and by the time that night rolled around, urine from the previous night would have been dry anyway.
There is no way to prove that JB slept in BRs room on the 24th either, though she was said to do that sometimes.
We can't prove the pink pajama bottoms were really in BR's room either. Nothing that I have seen states that definitively.

DeeDee249,
I just thought it odd if JonBenet's bed was not made up as normal? That is in the Ramsey version of events, was JonBenet placed into her bed, made up as normal, or as Patsy described?

If the bed had a blanket deficit, where in the Ramsey version or events did the blanket originate?

We can't prove the pink pajama bottoms were really in BR's room either. Nothing that I have seen states that definitively.

I do agree. But when JonBenet was found she was wearing white longjohns, and next to her was discovered a pink, bloodstained, barbie nightgown.

So with the pink pajama bottoms and size-6 underwear unaccounted for. I reckon both were forensically contaminated so had to be removed?



.