Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[carolbell]

I think the flashlight might be a policemans . They would be wearing gloves and might have left it there. Burke's knife, in the basement, I believe, that after housekeeper hid knife, Burke whined to his Mother about it and she told him to just whittle in basement.

Let's presume the Ramseys are innocent. BUT...how do you explain

THE PINEAPPLE?

THE RAMSEY FLASHLIGHT WITH THE PRINTS ON THE BATTERIES WIPED CLEAN?

BURKE's KNIFE THAT WAS HIDDEN IN THE 2nd FLOOR CUPBOARD APPEARING IN THE BASEMENT?

I know there are more but this is just a wee sample of the unexplainable.

 

[UKGuy]

I think Burke has had a terrible life. People didn't want their kids going to school with him in Atlanta. Even in Boulder, I bet he had it rough, we all know how cruel kids are. He saw a blonde little girl at an amusement park and got all shook up about riding with her. In all of the pictures, after the murder, he was alone, no one comforting him. The morning of the murder, he was probably terrified, with police down stairs, no one was with him again. I kind of feel sorry for the guy.

carolbell,
Being alone sems to be the experience of many children who experience some form of autism. They seem to prefer this so they can cope with life around them.

I always wonder if we will ever hear the real story about Burke?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

Actually the morning of the murder he was really only concerned that they probably weren't going to go on vacation now. HIS words, not mine. He was also mainly interested in being sure he could take his Nintendo with him to the White's. Terrified is NOT what he was that morning, according to witnesses and also according to his own comments.

 

[BoldBear]

Deedee249,

I don't like Burke's comment about missing Disney but I can read it more than one way like being buried deep in denial. I really don't know how to read it. I will, however, say that Nintendo is a place to escape. Playing a game, you don't have to talk to anyone. You might even keep your mind distracted so you don't have to face the really bad stuff.

I'm on the fence about his comment. As an adult, I'd probably get drunk and play video games--anything not to face what happened.

In DOI, John said that Burke cried when he told him that his sister was missing. That detail didn't 'ring true' for me because I haven't seen any other comments about Burke being emotional.

 

[otg]

Deedee249,

I don't like Burke's comment about missing Disney but I can read it more than one way like being buried deep in denial. I really don't know how to read it. I will, however, say that Nintendo is a place to escape. Playing a game, you don't have to talk to anyone. You might even keep your mind distracted so you don't have to face the really bad stuff.

I'm on the fence about his comment. As an adult, I'd probably get drunk and play video games--anything not to face what happened.

In DOI, John said that Burke cried when he told him that his sister was missing. That detail didn't 'ring true' for me because I haven't seen any other comments about Burke being emotional.

I've never read DOI, so I really don't know, but that just might be a provable falsehood. At exactly what point (according to DOI) do they claim that Burke was told that "his sister was missing"?

 

[OliviaG1996]

I've never read DOI, so I really don't know, but that just might be a provable falsehood. At exactly what point (according to DOI) do they claim that Burke was told that "his sister was missing"?

Here's a rough timeline of when BR was told of his sister's disappearance, according to JR. He wrote this was after Officer French and Officer Veitch had already arrived at the house.

From "The Death of Innocence" by John and Patsy Ramsey:

Soon friends arrive. The Whites and the Fernies. Father Rol Hoverstock, our priest from St. John's Episcopal Church and a close friend and confidant. The cold, empty vacancy in our house fills with these friends.

Father Rol immediately leads us in a prayer, asking God to bless and protect JonBenet as well as keep his hand on us. "Change the heart of the kidnapper," he prays, "so JonBenet will be returned to us." After he finishes, he stays with Patsy, trying to comfort her.

I remember Burke, asleep in his bedroom. I don't want him to get up in the midst of this madness and wonder what is going on. I ask Fleet White if Burke can go to his house and be with Fleet Jr. He agrees.

I wake Burke up and as gently as possible tell him that JonBenet is missing and that he is going to his friend Fleet's house for a while.

Burke looks distressed and begins to cry, so I know he understands the gravity of our predicament.

I help him get dressed, and momentarily he and Fleet are leaving the house, Burke carrying his new Nintendo 64 game under his arm.

 

[UKGuy]

Here's a rough timeline of when BR was told of his sister's disappearance, according to JR. He wrote this was after Officer French and Officer Veitch had already arrived at the house.

OliviaG1996,
Did the parents not say that Burke was awake during the 911 call?

 

[OliviaG1996]

OliviaG1996,
Did the parents not say that Burke was awake during the 911 call?

Yes. Here's part of the National Enquirer article:

April 3, 2001
The National Enquirer - Ramseys change their story about murder night
By David Wright & Don Gentile

"John and Patsy Ramsey have changed the story they told cops about their daughter JonBenet's murder -- they now admit their son Burke was awake during that Christmas 1996 nightmare!

In an exclusive ENQUIRER interview, the nation's most infamous murder suspects say Burke was jolted awake by screams in their Boulder, Colo. home.

'Burke knew something horrible had happened. He heard us screaming. He heard Patsy ...a woman in terror,' John confessed. 'We thought he was asleep but he wasn't. Burke was awake.

'Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on.'

Until being questioned by The ENQUIRER, the Ramseys had always insisted that Burke was still sleeping when police arrived at their home after Patsy's 911 call.

But now John has admitted to The ENQUIRER that Burke woke up before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 a.m. to summon police."

<SNIPPED>

Their story has so many holes, it's hard to keep track of.

Source:
http://www.acandyrose.com/04032001enquirer.htm

 

[otg]

Here's a rough timeline of when BR was told of his sister's disappearance, according to JR. He wrote this was after Officer French and Officer Veitch had already arrived at the house.

From "The Death of Innocence" by John and Patsy Ramsey:

Soon friends arrive. The Whites and the Fernies. Father Rol Hoverstock, our priest from St. John's Episcopal Church and a close friend and confidant. The cold, empty vacancy in our house fills with these friends.

Father Rol immediately leads us in a prayer, asking God to bless and protect JonBenet as well as keep his hand on us. "Change the heart of the kidnapper," he prays, "so JonBenet will be returned to us." After he finishes, he stays with Patsy, trying to comfort her.

I remember Burke, asleep in his bedroom. I don't want him to get up in the midst of this madness and wonder what is going on. I ask Fleet White if Burke can go to his house and be with Fleet Jr. He agrees.

I wake Burke up and as gently as possible tell him that JonBenet is missing and that he is going to his friend Fleet's house for a while.

Burke looks distressed and begins to cry, so I know he understands the gravity of our predicament.

I help him get dressed, and momentarily he and Fleet are leaving the house, Burke carrying his new Nintendo 64 game under his arm.

Thank you, OliviaG. When you first mentioned the DOI statement, I thought he might have been claiming this about the other time he said Burke was crying that morning. So let’s run through what happened...

John woke Burke (if he was actually asleep) and told him he would be going to the Whites’ house sometime shortly after 7:00 am. This was after one of the Ramsey friends commented on it being strange that an early-riser like Burke hadn’t been seen yet. By that time, the following people were in the house:

1. Offc. French
2. Offc. Veitch
3. Fleet White
4. Priscilla White
5. John Fernie
6. Barbara Fernie
7. Sgt. Reichenbach
8. Det. Everett
9. Det. Sgt. Wickman
10. Offc. Weiss
11. Offc. Barcklow
12. Rev. Hoverstock.
13. 2 Victim Advocates

There were at least 14 people in the house. The first person to leave was Reichenbach, and that was to meet Dets. Arndt and Patterson who were on their way to the house at 8:00 am -- after Burke had been removed. Fleet White went with John to wake Burke. While Burke was getting dressed, White made the slept-in bed. When the three got to the first floor, Officer French saw that the one person who slept on the same floor as the victim, and might have witnessed something during the night was leaving, so he attempted to question to him about what he might have heard or seen. John told him that Burke slept completely through the night and saw nothing, heard nothing, and knew nothing. (No one seems to know how John could have known this since he also claimed to have not questioned Burke himself.) Burke was herded through this gauntlet of strangers in his house and asked no questions about what was going on. No one ever described seeing a look of puzzlement on his face about what the commotion was all about. No one ever mentioned his being visibly upset or frightened. In the car with Fleet White, he was said to have asked no questions or expressed any concern or fear for his own or anyone else’s safety. He simply kept his head down making beeping sounds while he played with a handheld device during the drive. (Of course I wasn’t there; this is all as I recall the accounts.)

So Fleet White was present during the entire time of Burke’s having been awakened and whisked off to stay with FWIII. Did he ever mention how upset Burke was? Did he ever say anything about Burke crying when he was told that his sister was “missing”? Did any one of the 14 or so people in the house ever say anything about noticing how upset Burke was when he was led through the house to leave? Did French mention that Burke was visibly upset when he attempted to question him?

What’s funny about Ramsey’s account of Burke crying when he was told that his sister was “missing” is that this is the second time he claimed Burke cried. The other time was when they were caught in the lie about Burke sleeping through the 911 call (as pointed out in OliviaG’s other post). He claimed they thought he was asleep (why would they think that unless his eyes were closed), but yet also claimed he was visibly upset and frightened because “he had tears in his eyes”. This supposedly during the 911 call -- while John and Patsy were on the first floor and Burke was sound asleep in his bed on the second floor. Sheesh!

Like you said, OliviaG, “Their story has so many holes, it's hard to keep track of.” Or as my dad might have said, “Their story has more holes in it than a donut shop.”

 

[OliviaG1996]

Thank you, OliviaG. When you first mentioned the DOI statement, I thought he might have been claiming this about the other time he said Burke was crying that morning. So let’s run through what happened...

John woke Burke (if he was actually asleep) and told him he would be going to the Whites’ house sometime shortly after 7:00 am. This was after one of the Ramsey friends commented on it being strange that an early-riser like Burke hadn’t been seen yet. By that time, the following people were in the house:

1. Offc. French
2. Offc. Veitch
3. Fleet White
4. Priscilla White
5. John Fernie
6. Barbara Fernie
7. Sgt. Reichenbach
8. Det. Everett
9. Det. Sgt. Wickman
10. Offc. Weiss
11. Offc. Barcklow
12. Rev. Hoverstock.
13. 2 Victim Advocates

There were at least 14 people in the house. The first person to leave was Reichenbach, and that was to meet Dets. Arndt and Patterson who were on their way to the house at 8:00 am -- after Burke had been removed. Fleet White went with John to wake Burke. While Burke was getting dressed, White made the slept-in bed. When the three got to the first floor, Officer French saw that the one person who slept on the same floor as the victim, and might have witnessed something during the night was leaving, so he attempted to question to him about what he might have heard or seen. John told him that Burke slept completely through the night and saw nothing, heard nothing, and knew nothing. (No one seems to know how John could have known this since he also claimed to have not questioned Burke himself.) Burke was herded through this gauntlet of strangers in his house and asked no questions about what was going on. No one ever described seeing a look of puzzlement on his face about what the commotion was all about. No one ever mentioned his being visibly upset or frightened. In the car with Fleet White, he was said to have asked no questions or expressed any concern or fear for his own or anyone else’s safety. He simply kept his head down making beeping sounds while he played with a handheld device during the drive. (Of course I wasn’t there; this is all as I recall the accounts.)

So Fleet White was present during the entire time of Burke’s having been awakened and whisked off to stay with FWIII. Did he ever mention how upset Burke was? Did he ever say anything about Burke crying when he was told that his sister was “missing”? Did any one of the 14 or so people in the house ever say anything about noticing how upset Burke was when he was led through the house to leave? Did French mention that Burke was visibly upset when he attempted to question him?

What’s funny about Ramsey’s account of Burke crying when he was told that his sister was “missing” is that this is the second time he claimed Burke cried. The other time was when they were caught in the lie about Burke sleeping through the 911 call (as pointed out in OliviaG’s other post). He claimed they thought he was asleep (why would they think that unless his eyes were closed), but yet also claimed he was visibly upset and frightened because “he had tears in his eyes”. This supposedly during the 911 call -- while John and Patsy were on the first floor and Burke was sound asleep in his bed on the second floor. Sheesh!

Like you said, OliviaG, “Their story has so many holes, it's hard to keep track of.” Or as my dad might have said, “Their story has more holes in it than a donut shop.”

Great post, otg!

I don't believe anyone in the house other than John and Fleet has said anything with regards to how Burke took the news of JonBenet's kidnapping. Do we know who was at the White's residence other than Fleet White Jr. and perhaps Daphne? It'd be illogical for JR to send his son off to a house with no adult supervision right after his daughter's abduction (assuming the kidnapping was real, of course).

There are a couple of things I find strange about the two excerpts I posted (from DOI and the National Enquirer article):

First, from DOI: "I help him get dressed, and momentarily he and Fleet are leaving the house, Burke carrying his new Nintendo 64 game under his arm."

1. "I help him get dressed," This is the second time JR has mentioned helping BR get dressed. The first is here (BBM):

John Ramsey BPD Interview - April 30, 1997

<SNIPPED>

TT: Did you help Burke get into his pajamas that night?
JR: Yeah, like I do every night.
TT: Once he gets into his pajamas, he brushes his teeth, and climbs into bed. Which bed did Burke sleep in that night?
JR: He slept in the one he normally does, which is the one closest to the door.
TT: Okay. That where he, that’s like his bed and (inaudible) the room.
JR: Yeah. That’s like his bed were you’ll, that’s like his bed in the TV room.
TT: All right. Did Burke go right to bed, or did he watch, I know he. . .
JR: No he went right to bed . . .

<SNIPPED>

I am not a parent. I don't know at which age a child is old enough to dress themselves without a parent's help, but when a boy or a girl reaches age nine, it starts to seem like either the parent is coddling the child too much or the child is incapable of dressing themselves for whatever reason. Or, perhaps both. Do others here have children? How do you feel about this?

2. "... Burke carrying his new Nintendo 64 game under his arm." I don't believe this is a lie by any means, but it's a little confusing, and I like to know details. I used to play Nintendo 64 video games when I was little, too, but it's not a handheld device. Perhaps he brought a Nintendo 64 game along with, maybe, a GameBoy, playing with it while in the car headed to the White's? GameBoys are handheld, whereas the Nintendo 64 is a console that you hook up to your TV. Perhaps Fleet White Jr. had also had a Nintendo 64 gaming system so Burke had brought a Nintendo 64 game cartridge with him to play at the White's? I know I'm looking too far into this, bear with me! :giggle:

Examples of types of GameBoys available in 1996 (ignore the last two).


According to Google, Super Mario 64 (Left) and Pilotwings 64 (Right) were the only two games available for the Nintendo 64 in 1996. These are called "cartridges" which is most likely what JR meant by, "his new Nintendo 64 game,".


Nintendo 64 gaming system, controller, and Mario Kart 64 cartridge.​

Now, onto the National Enquirer article. I would like to know when exactly, "Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes," and exactly when, "He knew something very, very wrong was going on." Was this before or after the 9-1-1 call?

Also, didn't Patsy say she had talked to Burke about the murder in her interview with, I believe, Tom Haney? Why did it take until Burke testified in front of the grand jury in 1999, three years after the murder, for the Rs to find out he was awake? Not buying it.

 

[BOESP]

Most nine-year-old children, boys or girls, should be getting ready by themselves (not to mention an almost ten-year-old) unless there is a health reason not to.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Yeah, 9-year-old is way too old to need help putting your pajamas on. IDK...Maybe Burke was wearing like longjohns with a lot of buttons and he was just too lazy to do them all so John helped?

 

[DeeDee249]

Great post, otg!

I don't believe anyone in the house other than John and Fleet has said anything with regards to how Burke took the news of JonBenet's kidnapping. Do we know who was at the White's residence other than Fleet White Jr. and perhaps Daphne? It'd be illogical for JR to send his son off to a house with no adult supervision right after his daughter's abduction (assuming the kidnapping was real, of course).

There are a couple of things I find strange about the two excerpts I posted (from DOI and the National Enquirer article):

First, from DOI: "I help him get dressed, and momentarily he and Fleet are leaving the house, Burke carrying his new Nintendo 64 game under his arm."

1. "I help him get dressed," This is the second time JR has mentioned helping BR get dressed. The first is here (BBM):



I am not a parent. I don't know at which age a child is old enough to dress themselves without a parent's help, but when a boy or a girl reaches age nine, it starts to seem like either the parent is coddling the child too much or the child is incapable of dressing themselves for whatever reason. Or, perhaps both. Do others here have children? How do you feel about this?

2. "... Burke carrying his new Nintendo 64 game under his arm." I don't believe this is a lie by any means, but it's a little confusing, and I like to know details. I used to play Nintendo 64 video games when I was little, too, but it's not a handheld device. Perhaps he brought a Nintendo 64 game along with, maybe, a GameBoy, playing with it while in the car headed to the White's? GameBoys are handheld, whereas the Nintendo 64 is a console that you hook up to your TV. Perhaps Fleet White Jr. had also had a Nintendo 64 gaming system so Burke had brought a Nintendo 64 game cartridge with him to play at the White's? I know I'm looking too far into this, bear with me! :giggle:

View attachment 80096
Examples of types of GameBoys available in 1996 (ignore the last two).

View attachment 80097View attachment 80098
According to Google, Super Mario 64 (Left) and Pilotwings 64 (Right) were the only two games available for the Nintendo 64 in 1996. These are called "cartridges" which is most likely what JR meant by, "his new Nintendo 64 game,".

View attachment 80099
Nintendo 64 gaming system, controller, and Mario Kart 64 cartridge.​

Now, onto the National Enquirer article. I would like to know when exactly, "Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes," and exactly when, "He knew something very, very wrong was going on." Was this before or after the 9-1-1 call?

Also, didn't Patsy say she had talked to Burke about the murder in her interview with, I believe, Tom Haney? Why did it take until Burke testified in front of the grand jury in 1999, three years after the murder, for the Rs to find out he was awake? Not buying it.

The R admitted, years later, that they knew he had been awake but felt it was "easier" to simply say he was asleep to "keep him out of it". Now....if your little girl is kidnapped, assaulted and strangled in your own basement and you are trying to say she was taken from her room- and her brother's room is just down the hall- wouldn't you WANT him questioned? He may have heard or seen something. Why would you want to "keep him out of it" UNLESS you knew he knew what happened and you needed to cover that up. As far as BR's GJ testimony- those testifying before a Grand Jury are required to testify IN PERSON and WITHOUT a lawyer present. However, BR testified by videotape. We do not know if he had a lawyer present (I assume he did) and we do not know if he had been coached as what to say. (I'd bet the rent on it).

 

[questfortrue]

The R admitted, years later, that they knew he had been awake but felt it was "easier" to simply say he was asleep to "keep him out of it". Now....if your little girl is kidnapped, assaulted and strangled in your own basement and you are trying to say she was taken from her room- and her brother's room is just down the hall- wouldn't you WANT him questioned? He may have heard or seen something. Why would you want to "keep him out of it" UNLESS you knew he knew what happened and you needed to cover that up. As far as BR's GJ testimony- those testifying before a Grand Jury are required to testify IN PERSON and WITHOUT a lawyer present. However, BR testified by videotape. We do not know if he had a lawyer present (I assume he did) and we do not know if he had been coached as what to say. (I'd bet the rent on it).

~RBBM~

Someone did some coaching, imo. And that coaching took place relatively soon after the homicide.

Kolar asks the question whether BR deliberately misled Dr. Bernhard regarding the exact knowledge he had of the circumstances surrounding his sister’s death and wonders “why” BR would feel the need to do so.

From FF-
BR may have been conversing about the details of the investigation with playmates and learned of the head injury prior to the DSS interview. This was certainly within the realm of possibilities, but I was still asking myself the following questions:
• Why would Burke tell Dr. Bernhard that he knew what had happened to JonBenét and not mention her strangulation? He clearly was aware that strangulation had been involved due to the conversations he was overheard having with Doug Stine not more than two days after the murder of his sister.
• Additionally, if Burke had truly become aware of the circumstances surrounding the murder, why would he be mentioning a stabbing when there had been no such injury sustained by his sister?
• As illustrated here, the first media report issued on the murder specifically stated that JonBenét had not been stabbed.

 

[otg]

From the Colorado Court Rules regarding Grand Jury proceedings, a witness may have an attorney present for consultation during testimony. However, the rules allow the attorney only to advise his/her client and cannot &#8220;make objections, arguments, or address the grand jury&#8221;. Here is that part of the Rule:

COLORADO RULES OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
CHAPTER 29 COLORADO RULES OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE FOR ALL COURTS OF RECORD IN COLORADO
III. INDICTMENT AND INFORMATION
​

Colo. Crim. P. 6.2 (2015)​

Rule 6.2. Secrecy of Proceedings -- Witness Privacy -- Representation by Counsel.

(b)

Any witness subpoenaed to appear and testify before a grand jury or to produce books, papers, documents, or other objects before such grand jury shall be entitled to assistance of counsel during any time that such witness is being questioned in the presence of said grand jury. If the witness desires legal assistance during his testimony, counsel must be present in the grand jury room with his client during such questioning. However, counsel for the witness shall be permitted only to counsel with the witness and shall not make objections, arguments, or address the grand jury. Such counsel may be retained by the witness or may, for any person financially unable to obtain adequate assistance, be appointed in the same manner as if that person were eligible for appointed counsel. An attorney present in the grand jury room shall take an oath of secrecy. If the court, at an in camera hearing, determines that counsel was disruptive, then the court may order counsel to remain outside the courtroom when advising his client. No attorney shall be permitted to provide counsel in the grand jury room to more than one witness in the same criminal investigation, except with the permission of the grand jury.​

Colo. Crim. P. 6.2


(NOTE: Interestingly, there have been four Annotations added to this Rule referencing the case of Hoffman-Pugh v. Keenan.)



I suspect that even though I can&#8217;t find a specific reference in the GJ Rules, a minor would be treated in a GJ like a minor in a criminal proceeding. If the judge felt it necessary, he/she could allow for a minor to testify &#8220;in camera&#8221; (in private chamber) while being videotaped. We&#8217;ve probably all heard that this may have been the case with Burke -- that his testimony was videotaped and shown to the GJ. But that procedure wouldn&#8217;t allow for the Grand Jurors to ask direct questions of a witness, which is one thing that is different from a regular criminal proceeding. A GJ is an investigative body and does not rely on opposing sides to present their case, so they are allowed to ask direct questions of the witnesses (unlike what we are familiar with in a criminal court case).

It&#8217;s because of this conflicting information that James Kolar was asked about Burke&#8217;s testimony in his AMA on Reddit:

Question:
It has been widely reported that Burke Ramsey testified before the Grand Jury. But accounts disagree as to whether his testimony was an actual in-person appearance, or an &#8220;in-camera&#8221; interview that was videotaped and then played for the GJ. Which was it, and were the GJ members allowed to pose questions to him? Either way, who was allowed to ask him questions and were the questions limited by his lawyer -- as was done in his parents' interviews with investigators? (NOTE: I'm not asking you to violate GJ secrecy rules here. But it seems questions about GJ procedures shouldn't be a problem.)

Answer:
To my knowledge, every person called before the grand jury testified before them in the flesh. Jurors can ask any question they want of a witness. I am a little rusty on the rules of grand jury procedure, and I can&#8217;t recall if attorneys are allowed to accompany their clients into chambers.
​

(Kolar admitted not remembering if attorneys were allowed to accompany their clients during testimony, but the Rules DO allow it as shown above in the citation.)



Something else I ran across while reading these Rules, which has nothing to do with the subject here, but I can&#8217;t pass up mentioning:

Rule 6.6. Indictment -- Presentation -- Sealing.

(a)

Presentation of an indictment in open court by a grand jury may be accomplished by the foreman of the grand jury, the full grand jury, or by the prosecutor acting under instructions of the grand jury.
​

Colo. Crim. P. 6.6

I don&#8217;t know how strongly the RGJ felt about all their hard work and what Hunter did, but it seems that had they chosen to do so, they could have presented the Indictment themselves without Hunter. (Are any Ramsey Grand Jurors reading here?) Of course, we all know that now it is too late for that to happen because of the SoL.

 

[spooky24]

From my Grand Jury experience witnesses can have someone in the anteroom but never behind the locked door. Part of the process when serving on a grand jury is the one on one observations each panel member has of the witness. Grand Jury's can be long, tedious and drawn out affairs 4-6 months like my experience and after the first session each person learns how to interpret the prosecution and understand what the Judge has empowered the panel to do.

It takes time-about a week of cases-for all this to sink in. Since this is a secret process only the persons involved know how heated and confrontational these things can get especially when everyone has had a belly full of the process for three months-knowing they still have weeks left.

I have never heard of testimony coming in the form of video tape or closed circuit television as that defeats the entire reason for having a panel in the first place.

I remember from Steve Thomas's book that the case file to be presented to the GJ was 46,000 pages long. I lost interest in the case and never knew just what was condensed into the presentation-if this can be read, even now, I doubt it would hold my interest as I know there would never be a restitution.

I would not put much emphasis on the continuing postings of the rules of the procedure-like that matters when the term starts. We bent, pushed and pulled those rules in every way we could. Every week we would be put back into the courtroom and get blasted by the judge for not staying within the boundaries of what we were charged to do. Translated--'hurry up'

It's impossible to describe this to anyone. You must go through the process to understand it.

 

[UKGuy]

spooky24,
So what would it feel like if after x months of deliberation that your decisions never appeared in public?

 

[spooky24]

Not exactly sure about the question. If the panel votes for a true bill-then the indictment would be forthcoming-if not, of course there would be no indictment.

From what I remember about this case kidnapping and murder charges in the form of an indictment were brought forward against Pasty Ramsey. The district attorneys office simply refused to prosecute-Bolder, CO is the only city in America that could get away with that. Remember, team Ramsey was spending millions each month to intimidate individuals that could stop the process.

 

[questfortrue]

~RSBM~

Something else I ran across while reading these Rules, which has nothing to do with the subject here, but I can’t pass up mentioning:

Rule 6.6. Indictment -- Presentation -- Sealing.

(a)

Presentation of an indictment in open court by a grand jury may be accomplished by the foreman of the grand jury, the full grand jury, or by the prosecutor acting under instructions of the grand jury.
​

Colo. Crim. P. 6.6

I don’t know how strongly the RGJ felt about all their hard work and what Hunter did, but it seems that had they chosen to do so, they could have presented the Indictment themselves without Hunter. (Are any Ramsey Grand Jurors reading here?) Of course, we all know that now it is too late for that to happen because of the SoL.

~RBBM~

Thanks, otg, for providing these CO GJ Rules. It’s interesting that there is no Rule which covers a situation in which a DA hides a True Bill.

Only an opinion, but I doubt the jurors were aware that they could have presented the True Bill themselves. Would it have had any validity without AH’s signature?

For those who don’t recall what some of the other jurors told Brennan (from the Daily Camera)–

“It’s still unresolved. Someone did something pretty horrible and it wasn’t punished. I’m not saying that I am at peace. But I had sympathy for his (Hunter’s) decision. I could see the problem he was in. I could see what he was doing.”

"It was pretty traumatic," a juror said. "It was a horrible event, and to really have to delve into all of the evidence and know what happened and get details was difficult. The reality is it was a horrible thing, and I didn't have the luxury of picking and choosing what I would pay attention to. I needed to know what happened in every detail, so it was difficult. So many people had been traumatized by this, and hurt, and scared."

Still, one juror who spoke with the Camera expressed a feeling of still not being completely reconciled
with Hunter's decision. But the juror added that, perceiving that it would be a difficult case to try, Hunter's declining to sign the indictment, also known as a true bill, was understandable. And, the juror said, "I think I did believe that they would get more evidence and figure out who did it."

Another grand juror who confirmed the vote said, "I think I have conquered the feeling of any acute frustration. This is what we thought, and that's what you (the prosecutors) asked us for, and that's what we gave you, our opinion," the juror added. "That was our job, and the rest of the legal procedure, they just do with it what has to be done."

Several grand jurors declined to comment on their vote. One, in doing so, said, "Our job was to try to come up with, to help solve this crime. It has not been solved yet, and we are still under oath to keep silent, and I would like to honor that. And I still have all the hope that, in the coming years, this crime will be solved properly."

 

[UKGuy]

questfortrue,
Surely the time has come for those jurors to chill out? How long do they have to wait for the magic bullet of evidence to arrive?

From a jurors perspective if the case is BDI then its sealed for ever. If its PDI then its dead and buried for ever.

So are the jurors suggesting they all secretly think along with AH that the case is JDI, and they await the forensic evidence to obtain a conviction?

Methinks its time for the jurors to go on the record.

.