Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[UKGuy]

My skin is as thick as it gets. I am shocked at outright lies on this board. I don't understand why people continue to point fingers at the Ramseys when it's obvious that it was an intruder. The DA admits it, a judged who looked at every single piece of evidence (true evidence) said it points to an intruder. Lou Smit a well respected and successful crime solver said an intruder did it, the only people who stated other wise was the Barney Fife like BPD, and the majority on this board.

Junebug99,
What lies do you refer to? Also there is no forensic evidence linking to any known intruder. All the crime-scene evidence is linked to the Ramsey's then currently resident in the house.


If you have any evidence of an intruder please post it for all the RDI people to read?

 

[UKGuy]

Also there was unidentified animal hair on JBR that didn't match anything in the house. Oh and please stop telling me I should read up on the case. I have and I still find sources that say the palm print was never matched. Lots of hearsay and speculation in this case.

Junebug99,
John Ramsey's fibers were found on JonBenet's crotch area. Patsy's fibers were found embedded into the ligature, on the underside of the duct-tape, and in the paint-tote, despite Patsy claiming to never have visited the basement the preceding night or the following morning.


These are not lies. This is forensic evidence for which no explanation has been offered.

This means the Ramsey's are linked to the crime-scene even though they stated they simply went to bed the night before and discovered JonBenet missing the next morning.

Then there are the size-12 Bloomingdales JonBenet was wearing. Patently placed on her after the intruder had molested then cleaned her up. Why so?


Because there is no intruder. The intruder is just your usual suspect.



.

 

[Mikebr]

My skin is as thick as it gets. I am shocked at outright lies on this board. I don't understand why people continue to point fingers at the Ramseys when it's obvious that it was an intruder. The DA admits it, a judged who looked at every single piece of evidence (true evidence) said it points to an intruder. Lou Smit a well respected and successful crime solver said an intruder did it, the only people who stated other wise was the Barney Fife like BPD, and the majority on this board.

what seems so obvious to you seems ridiculous to me...i am not so sure about mr. smit as you. i always come back to that fake note patsy clearly wrote. Why did she write it? to hide an intruder? no intruder would need to stage a kidnapping and no kidnapper would write that note.

 

[DeeDee249]

Please link where it stated that it was Patsy arm hair, everything I have read says there was a unknown pubic/auxiliary hair on the blanket found with JBR. Regardless of the parents touching the waistband it wasn't their DNA. Unsterile clippers still doesn't explain why DNA under fingernail matched DNA on long johns, and mixed with blood on JBR's underwear.

It was an ancillary hair- ancillary meaning forearm. It was not an axcillary hair- axcillary meaning underarm. This hair was tested and matched quite early on in the investigation. I provide no links. I found the info the same place anyone else can. On the internet in the case materials.

 

[DeeDee249]

Also there was unidentified animal hair on JBR that didn't match anything in the house. Oh and please stop telling me I should read up on the case. I have and I still find sources that say the palm print was never matched. Lots of hearsay and speculation in this case.

Because what you are reading is old info. The palm print was matched very early on. Of course, the Rs and their team have no interest in seeing these errors corrected. Why would they? Every time something is found to point to the family it lessens the chance that anyone else committed the crime. I resent your insinuation that we are liars. ALL the info put out here has been verified. The palm print, hair and fibers are FACT. The contaminated fingernail DNA is FACT.
No one here has stated as a FACT that the Rs committed this crime. Under every one of my posts is a disclaimer stating that my comments are my OPINION only. This is a forum. These threads are ALL opinions. Most opinions are based on facts. Some are simply opinions. But we each have a right to have them, you included. But you are most offensive when you accuse me (or anyone else here who happens to believe the family is responsible) of being a liar.
The family were present at the time of death. Legally, they are ALL suspects are remain so until the killer is identified BY NAME. I don't care who "cleared" who. Means nothing until a killer is identified. It is one thing to clear people who can be proven to have NOT been there in the house at the time. But anyone present in the house at the time of the crime is not "cleared" until a killer is identified.

 

[DeeDee249]

My skin is as thick as it gets. I am shocked at outright lies on this board. I don't understand why people continue to point fingers at the Ramseys when it's obvious that it was an intruder. The DA admits it, a judged who looked at every single piece of evidence (true evidence) said it points to an intruder. Lou Smit a well respected and successful crime solver said an intruder did it, the only people who stated other wise was the Barney Fife like BPD, and the majority on this board.

LS is not infallible- no investigator is. Neither is the DA, who as far as I know never stated as fact that there was an intruder.
And Judge Carnes did not look at "every single piece of evidence" In FACT, she looked at ONLY the evidence provided by the Ramsey lawyers! Hardly unbiased.

 

[Junebug99]

No evidence that points to an intruder? Reread my post. The duct tape was ripped off JBRs mouth, easily cross contamination. The dark fibers on JB undies, rumor link me proof, I will link where it's denied. Lou Smit solved over 200 crimes, very well respected and well liked. The biggest lie I have read on here is JR is no longer looking, he still has his own team of investigators, again I will link if you would like. Dee, unlike you I was able to provide links backing up my claims, they can't determine which type of hair it is and it matches no one in the family. All the information I am putting out there can easily be confirmed via a google search. I damn sure refuse to spread false information about an innocent family.

Announcement that Ramseys have been CLEARED in the death of JBR.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

 

[Junebug99]

It was an ancillary hair- ancillary meaning forearm. It was not an axcillary hair- axcillary meaning underarm. This hair was tested and matched quite early on in the investigation. I provide no links. I found the info the same place anyone else can. On the internet in the case materials.

The only place I found someone claiming that was a personal blog, hardly evidence. But I did link where it stated it hasn't been identified for your reading pleasure.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682468/Evidence of an Intruder

Caucasian Hair on Blanket. "Likewise, an unidentified Caucasian "pubic or auxiliary" hair, not *1357 matching any Ramsey, was found on the blanket covering JonBenet' body. (SMF P 179-180; PSMF P 179-180.)" (Carnes 2003:96).

 

[Junebug99]

LS is not infallible- no investigator is. Neither is the DA, who as far as I know never stated as fact that there was an intruder.
And Judge Carnes did not look at "every single piece of evidence" In FACT, she looked at ONLY the evidence provided by the Ramsey lawyers! Hardly unbiased.

The DA not only exonerated the Ramsey's, she apologized.



http://www.denverpost.com/ci_9833564

 

[Junebug99]

LS is not infallible- no investigator is. Neither is the DA, who as far as I know never stated as fact that there was an intruder.
And Judge Carnes did not look at "every single piece of evidence" In FACT, she looked at ONLY the evidence provided by the Ramsey lawyers! Hardly unbiased.

Lou Smit was infallible when it came to investigations, he was 200 for 200 when started investigating the JBR case. Obligatory link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/us/14smit.html

 

[Junebug99]

It was an ancillary hair- ancillary meaning forearm. It was not an axcillary hair- axcillary meaning underarm. This hair was tested and matched quite early on in the investigation. I provide no links. I found the info the same place anyone else can. On the internet in the case materials.

You tell me to read up on the case?


Link to the Pubic or auxiliary hair found on blanket. Even used a different website.


http://www.acandyrose.com/04142003judgerulling-judicialanalysis.txt

 

[Mikebr]

No evidence that points to an intruder? Reread my post. The duct tape was ripped off JBRs mouth, easily cross contamination. The dark fibers on JB undies, rumor link me proof, I will link where it's denied. Lou Smit solved over 200 crimes, very well respected and well liked. The biggest lie I have read on here is JR is no longer looking, he still has his own team of investigators, again I will link if you would like. Dee, unlike you I was able to provide links backing up my claims, they can't determine which type of hair it is and it matches no one in the family. All the information I am putting out there can easily be confirmed via a google search. I damn sure refuse to spread false information about an innocent family.

Announcement that Ramseys have been CLEARED in the death of JBR.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

Come on now..JR is looking like OJ was looking. JR knows what happened. why would he look. Explain the note.

 

[Mikebr]

It was an ancillary hair- ancillary meaning forearm. It was not an axcillary hair- axcillary meaning underarm. This hair was tested and matched quite early on in the investigation. I provide no links. I found the info the same place anyone else can. On the internet in the case materials.

what other cases you follow on here? i have only two others and no one ever posts. I guess that goes for anyone. Anyone know of other active threads?..cases in the news type.

 

[Junebug99]

Come on now..JR is looking like OJ was looking. JR knows what happened. why would he look. Explain the note.

The note has been debated by the experts.

Summary Findings Favorable to Patsy Ramsey
No BPD-Hired Experts Identified Patsy as RN Author. "During the investigation, the Boulder Police Department and Boulder County District Attorney's Office consulted at least six handwriting experts. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) All of these experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey. (SMF P 205; PSMF P 205.) Four of these experts were hired by the police and two were hired by defendants. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 195; PSMF P 195.) [Emphasis added.]
*
Odds "Very Low" Patsy Wrote Note
Carnes Decision. "Rather, the experts' consensus was that she "probably did not" write the Ransom Note. (SMF P 196; PSMF P 196.) On a scale of one to five, with five being elimination as the author of the Ransom Note, the experts placed Mrs. Ramsey at a 4.5 or a 4.0. (SMF P 203; PSMF P 203.) The experts described the chance of Mrs. Ramsey being the author of the Ransom Note as "very low." (SMF P 204; PSMF P 204.) (Carnes 2003:26).
Hunter Deposition. Alex Hunter videotaped a deposition in the Wolf v. Ramsey case on November 27, 2001; according to Internet poster Jameson, parts of this deposition are under seal. However, the deposition was referenced in the videotaped deposition of Gideon Epstein May 17, 2002 which has been made public. (In this section, which begins on p. 165, line 2, the questioner is James Rawls Q. "You've read the testimony of Alex Hunter -- A. I have. Q. --that is part of Defendant's Exhibit 9; have you not? A. Yes. Q. And you understand that from Alex Hunter's perspective, the sum total of the handwriting analysis done by the investigation on Patsy Ramsey was that she was somewhere at about a 4.5 on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being elimination. A. (Nods head). Q. Do you not, sir? A. That's what he says. Q. Thus, that from Alex Hunter's perspective, Patsy Ramsey was not eliminated by the experts chosen by the district attorney, but she was close to elimination; correct? A. That's what he says, yes."
Patsy Ramsey Statement. From Larry King Live (3/28/2000): "KING: Is your handwriting cleared, both of you? P. RAMSEY: John's definitively was cleared. And I scored a 4.5 out of 5. Five is definitely no match, and it just..." CNN*RUSH*transcript*(html). On Larry King Live (4/14/2000), Steve Thomas stated: "Well, they're saying that she scored a numerical scale of 4 1/2, but that apparently is from their own defense handwriting experts." CNN*RUSH*transcript*(html).
*
Other*Individuals*Not*Eliminated*as*RN*Writer.
*

 

[UKGuy]

No evidence that points to an intruder? Reread my post. The duct tape was ripped off JBRs mouth, easily cross contamination. The dark fibers on JB undies, rumor link me proof, I will link where it's denied. Lou Smit solved over 200 crimes, very well respected and well liked. The biggest lie I have read on here is JR is no longer looking, he still has his own team of investigators, again I will link if you would like. Dee, unlike you I was able to provide links backing up my claims, they can't determine which type of hair it is and it matches no one in the family. All the information I am putting out there can easily be confirmed via a google search. I damn sure refuse to spread false information about an innocent family.

Announcement that Ramseys have been CLEARED in the death of JBR.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

Junebug99,

Announcement that Ramseys have been CLEARED in the death of JBR.

So what! No court of law as declared them NOT GUILTY, or INNOCENT in the death of JonBenet Ramsey.

No evidence that points to an intruder?

Exactly, you obviously have NONE otherwise you would have posted it. Game over.

You cannot link to where it is denied because the Ramsey's have failed to offer any explanation for their fibers being all over the crime-scene. So do not waste everyone's time with IDI rhetoric.

For your delectation, some references to the quotes regarding the forensic evidence, e.g. not opinion from some website!


Patsy's 2000 Atlanta Interview, excerpt

Now, Mrs. Ramsey,
14 you -- are you aware, I should say, that
15 your paint kit was found very close to the
16 wine cellar door?
17 A. I have heard that.
18 Q. Did you recall at any time that
19 you were shown photographs in that regard?
20 A. No.
21 Q. We have found, and I want you to
22 help us, maybe you can offer an explanation
23 for this. We have found fibers in the paint
24 tray that appear to come off of the coat in
25 the photograph we showed you.
0184
1 A. In the paint tray?
2 Q. Yes.

...
Patsy's 2000 Atlanta Interview, excerpt

9 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mrs. Ramsey, I
10 have scientific evidence from forensic
11 scientists that say that there's fibers in
12 the paint tray that match your red jacket.
13 I have no evidence from any scientist to
14 suggest that those fibers are from any source
15 other than your red jacket.

...

Patsy's 2000 Atlanta Interview, excerpt

3 MR. LEVIN: I think that is
4 probably fair. Based on the state of the
5 art scientific testing, we believe the fibers
6 from her jacket were found in the paint
7 tray, were found tied into the ligature found
8 on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket
9 that she is wrapped in, were found on the
10 duct tape that is found on the mouth, and
11 the question is, can she explain to us how
12 those fibers appeared in those places that
13 are associated with her daughter's death.

...

Patsy's 2000 Atlanta Interview, excerpt

8 MR. LEVIN: I understand your
9 position.
10 In addition to those questions,
11 there are some others that I would like you
12 to think about whether or not we can have
13 Mrs. Ramsey perhaps in the future answer. I
14 understand you are advising her not to today,
15 and those are there are black fibers that,
16 according to our testing that was conducted,
17 that match one of the two shirts that was
18 provided to us by the Ramseys, black shirt.
19 Those are located in the
20 underpants of JonBenet Ramsey, were found in
21 her crotch area, and I believe those are two
22 other areas that we have intended to ask
23 Mrs. Ramsey about if she could help us in
24 explaining their presence in those locations.

.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

We actually have a topic on the JonBenet board to talk on other cases that interest us, and what other forums we participate in:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135063"]What others cases interest you as much as JBR's? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

You could ask your question there so we don't go OT on this thread.

 

[Roy23]

The note has been debated by the experts.

Summary Findings Favorable to Patsy Ramsey
No BPD-Hired Experts Identified Patsy as RN Author. "During the investigation, the Boulder Police Department and Boulder County District Attorney's Office consulted at least six handwriting experts. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) All of these experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey. (SMF P 205; PSMF P 205.) Four of these experts were hired by the police and two were hired by defendants. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 195; PSMF P 195.) [Emphasis added.]
*
Odds "Very Low" Patsy Wrote Note
Carnes Decision. "Rather, the experts' consensus was that she "probably did not" write the Ransom Note. (SMF P 196; PSMF P 196.) On a scale of one to five, with five being elimination as the author of the Ransom Note, the experts placed Mrs. Ramsey at a 4.5 or a 4.0. (SMF P 203; PSMF P 203.) The experts described the chance of Mrs. Ramsey being the author of the Ransom Note as "very low." (SMF P 204; PSMF P 204.) (Carnes 2003:26).
Hunter Deposition. Alex Hunter videotaped a deposition in the Wolf v. Ramsey case on November 27, 2001; according to Internet poster Jameson, parts of this deposition are under seal. However, the deposition was referenced in the videotaped deposition of Gideon Epstein May 17, 2002 which has been made public. (In this section, which begins on p. 165, line 2, the questioner is James Rawls Q. "You've read the testimony of Alex Hunter -- A. I have. Q. --that is part of Defendant's Exhibit 9; have you not? A. Yes. Q. And you understand that from Alex Hunter's perspective, the sum total of the handwriting analysis done by the investigation on Patsy Ramsey was that she was somewhere at about a 4.5 on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being elimination. A. (Nods head). Q. Do you not, sir? A. That's what he says. Q. Thus, that from Alex Hunter's perspective, Patsy Ramsey was not eliminated by the experts chosen by the district attorney, but she was close to elimination; correct? A. That's what he says, yes."
Patsy Ramsey Statement. From Larry King Live (3/28/2000): "KING: Is your handwriting cleared, both of you? P. RAMSEY: John's definitively was cleared. And I scored a 4.5 out of 5. Five is definitely no match, and it just..." CNN*RU*****ranscript*(html). On Larry King Live (4/14/2000), Steve Thomas stated: "Well, they're saying that she scored a numerical scale of 4 1/2, but that apparently is from their own defense handwriting experts." CNN*RU*****ranscript*(html).
*
Other*Individuals*Not*Eliminated*as*RN*Writer.
*

And to think I used to hate JuneBugs. hehehe. Sure hope you hang around but you are gonna run into a wall.

 

[Mikebr]

The note has been debated by the experts.

Summary Findings Favorable to Patsy Ramsey
No BPD-Hired Experts Identified Patsy as RN Author. "During the investigation, the Boulder Police Department and Boulder County District Attorney's Office consulted at least six handwriting experts. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) All of these experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey. (SMF P 205; PSMF P 205.) Four of these experts were hired by the police and two were hired by defendants. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 195; PSMF P 195.) [Emphasis added.]
*
Odds "Very Low" Patsy Wrote Note
Carnes Decision. "Rather, the experts' consensus was that she "probably did not" write the Ransom Note. (SMF P 196; PSMF P 196.) On a scale of one to five, with five being elimination as the author of the Ransom Note, the experts placed Mrs. Ramsey at a 4.5 or a 4.0. (SMF P 203; PSMF P 203.) The experts described the chance of Mrs. Ramsey being the author of the Ransom Note as "very low." (SMF P 204; PSMF P 204.) (Carnes 2003:26).
Hunter Deposition. Alex Hunter videotaped a deposition in the Wolf v. Ramsey case on November 27, 2001; according to Internet poster Jameson, parts of this deposition are under seal. However, the deposition was referenced in the videotaped deposition of Gideon Epstein May 17, 2002 which has been made public. (In this section, which begins on p. 165, line 2, the questioner is James Rawls Q. "You've read the testimony of Alex Hunter -- A. I have. Q. --that is part of Defendant's Exhibit 9; have you not? A. Yes. Q. And you understand that from Alex Hunter's perspective, the sum total of the handwriting analysis done by the investigation on Patsy Ramsey was that she was somewhere at about a 4.5 on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being elimination. A. (Nods head). Q. Do you not, sir? A. That's what he says. Q. Thus, that from Alex Hunter's perspective, Patsy Ramsey was not eliminated by the experts chosen by the district attorney, but she was close to elimination; correct? A. That's what he says, yes."
Patsy Ramsey Statement. From Larry King Live (3/28/2000): "KING: Is your handwriting cleared, both of you? P. RAMSEY: John's definitively was cleared. And I scored a 4.5 out of 5. Five is definitely no match, and it just..." CNN*RU*****ranscript*(html). On Larry King Live (4/14/2000), Steve Thomas stated: "Well, they're saying that she scored a numerical scale of 4 1/2, but that apparently is from their own defense handwriting experts." CNN*RU*****ranscript*(html).
*
Other*Individuals*Not*Eliminated*as*RN*Writer.
*

I don't want to start a personal argument so if i come over too blunt it is a personal weakness. I have seen handwriting experts who point to many similarities with PR. Beyond the writing is the linguistics. That letter was written by a woman..a southern woman who had intimate knowledge of the Ramsey finances to the extent she knew the money from the bonus was still in the bank and not invested...the writer never addressed patsy but only John...why? because why would Patsy address herself? The letter is begging over the top for john to leave the house and never contact the police. Why? because patsy had murdered her child, staged her body for dumping but she could not get away with dragging the body to the car, plopping it into the trunk and driving off in the middle of the night with John in the house..see unlike the so called intruder..PR was concerned about waking up the people in the house....The note used expressions PR was known to use..The note was definitely written by a woman..lets see...a southern woman, with intimate knowledge of the family finances, used expressions PR was known to use, a long rambling message staging a fake kidnapping...who oh who could have written that note? Oh wait...Patsy...who else? nobody. Follow the note...

 

[Junebug99]

Uk guy I have posted evidence of an intruder, have you not been reading my post?

 

[Junebug99]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Ramsey, it is our belief, based on forensic testing that there are hairs that are associated -- that the source is the collared black shirt that you sent to us that are found in your daughter's underpants, and I want to refute...

J. RAMSEY: Bull (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I don't believe that. I don't buy it. If you're trying to disgrace my relationship with my daughter...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Ramsey, I'm not trying to...

J. RAMSEY: Well, I don't believe it. That's ridiculous.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think you are too, Bruce. Let's move on. Why don't you move on.

J. RAMSEY: That's disgusting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I am not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, you are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's move to something else, maybe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's move to another topic.

J. RAMSEY: The question is, how did fibers of your shirt get in your daughter's underwear? I say that is not possible. I don't believe it. That's ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: So you're saying police invent things to try to get respondents to respond?

WOOD: That was invented. We know that there were black fibers found, they claim, but there were no black fibers found in the areas of Jon Benet's underwear, as claimed in that question. The Boulder Police Department did not even ask for the Ramseys to provide the department with the clothes they were wearing the night of Jon Benet's murder for over one year. They couldn't even remember what they had worn. They had to go back and look at photographs to try and reconstruct what they wore that night.

KING: And now, one other thing in this segment, the pineapple. There was pineapple found in Jon Benet's stomach in the autopsy. Patsy Ramsey said she didn't feed Jon Benet any pineapple that night, but pineapple was found in Jon Benet's stomach. Police say that Patsy's fingerprints were found on the bowl of pineapple. Police say they can't be hers. Police say she is lying about this, then she's probably lying about other things. Here is Patsy's response to those accusations.