Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[SMK]

Just a quick question, and as I said I am coming late to this case and am trying to work through many threads , so apologies if this has already been addressed:

Is the general consensus about that last picture of TA is that he knew he was about to be attacked? It certainly is a compelling pic and looks that way to me.

Just to respond to my own question:

Do not know what to make of this, but on the findadeath forum, there is a thread talking about that final photo and suggesting that you can see JA with her arms raised and behind her, poised to strike reflected in TAs right eye. Interesting, but cannot be sure it is valid:

 

[MidwestWoman]

Yours is a really excellent, excellent analysis and I agree with it all, for the most part. The only thing I would add is that while of course JA had NO cause to brutally murder TA, and that TA is of course the VICTIM of a brutal crime, I do feel that there is an aspect wherein JA was a troubled, desperate child in a woman's body, and TA used her as if she were a lowclass paid prostitute---which he had brains enough to know she wasn't.

Not trying to place blame on TA, but isn't there something ugly about using a sick person? Using their desperation? Why couldn't he have just watched , paid a prostitute, gotten it out of his system with no emotional strings attached, and then moved on and settled down. Am I the only one who finds HIS behavior deeply, deeply disturbing? Would appreciate any and all feedback.....:waitasec:

I do totally agree with you. If TA had been honest with his older male friends about exploring his sexuality, would those older friends have tried to counsel him on accepting any responsibility for his and JA's doomed sexual hookups? or for how to humanely put a stop to those hookups? or did TA really not have anyone with whom he could confide his deep dark secrets?
TA is definitely the victim of a gruesome murder, but someone has to start counseling our young men and our young women on how not to get sexually involved with someone with a fragile mind because emotions are a dangerous thing. :twocents:

 

[SMK]

I do totally agree with you. If TA had been honest with his older male friends about exploring his sexuality, would those older friends have tried to counsel him on accepting any responsibility for his and JA's doomed sexual hookups? or for how to humanely put a stop to those hookups? or did TA really not have anyone with whom he could confide his deep dark secrets?
TA is definitely the victim of a gruesome murder, but someone has to start counseling our young men and our young women on how not to get sexually involved with someone with a fragile mind because emotions are a dangerous thing. :twocents:

Absolutely. And one wonders why TA could not have sought counsel within his own Mormon church on how to deal with this sexual conflict/divide within himself. I am sure they would have been compassionate enough to treat it as a real psychological crisis and dilemma. Of course TA did NOT deserve to be brutally murdered - but he was playing fast and loose with life and seemed to have "wanted his cake and eat it , too".

 

[SMK]

Travis's friends have said that when he first met Jodi he was very keen on her & they even mentioned they thought they would marry, so I don't believe his intention was to use Jodi. I think Jodi is the sort of person who comes across at 1st as a wonderful person, but the more you get to know them the facade slips & you realise there's something not right about them. I think he just went off her.
I believe Travis did try to end things with her, but she would not take no for an answer. Was he weak & maybe unkind at still taking what she was offering? Yes, but I believe he was honest & she knew he was not serious about her. A disturbed mind like Jodi's is a bomb waiting to explode & we can't blame Travis for doing what a high percentage of men would do. Remember too that we only have her word that they had sex on the day of the baptism & I don't believe her. He might not be the perfect Morman, but I believe he was a good man.

Yes, that is another aspect to the story. I am not well versed on all the facts, so I may have seen one aspect more than the whole picture. Like all human tragedies, it is complex.

 

[thelmadawg]

Yours is a really excellent, excellent analysis and I agree with it all, for the most part. The only thing I would add is that while of course JA had NO cause to brutally murder TA, and that TA is of course the VICTIM of a brutal crime, I do feel that there is an aspect wherein JA was a troubled, desperate child in a woman's body, and TA used her as if she were a lowclass paid prostitute---which he had brains enough to know she wasn't.

Not trying to place blame on TA, but isn't there something ugly about using a sick person? Using their desperation? Why couldn't he have just watched , paid a prostitute, gotten it out of his system with no emotional strings attached, and then moved on and settled down. Am I the only one who finds HIS behavior deeply, deeply disturbing? Would appreciate any and all feedback.....:waitasec:

I am going to respectfully disagree with some of your conclusions about TA. I believe he was fairly innocent until meeting up with JA. She appears to the initiator. I think she used sex as a control (exploitive) factor on a young man, who like most young men of his age, are sexually charged.

And, To the contrary, I think she used him by employing sex, role playing, and fantasy texting as a "love" tool. At first it was new and exciting to him, and I believe he genuinely cared for her. His later comment to her shows his hurt as the relationship disintegrates: I was nothing to you but a dildo with a beating heart." And he confesses to one of his friends that he would like to end the relationship, (paraphrased) --but it's hard to do when someone just crawls into your bed.

JA is a sociopath. There is no cure for her illness, and TA was doomed when she finally met someone who had everything she wanted.

JHMO.

 

[SMK]

I am going to respectfully disagree with some of your conclusions about TA. I believe he was fairly innocent until meeting up with JA. She appears to the initiator. I think she used sex as a control (exploitive) factor on a young man, who like most young men of his age, are sexually charged.

And, To the contrary, I think she used him by employing sex, role playing, and fantasy texting as a "love" tool. At first it was new and exciting to him, and I believe he genuinely cared for her. His later comment to her shows his hurt as the relationship disintegrates: I was nothing to you but a dildo with a beating heart." And he confesses to one of his friends that he would like to end the relationship, (paraphrased) --but it's hard to do when someone just crawls into your bed.

JA is a sociopath. There is no cure for her illness, and TA was doomed when she finally met someone who had everything she wanted.

JHMO.

Your points are extremely well taken - being new to the case and not well-versed, I may be emphasizing parts of the picture without seeing the whole. All grist for the mill.....addendum:As I am still making my way through the posts, what prompted such a comment from him? If she allowed the relationship to deteriorate, why go ballistic when he has moved on? Now I am a bit confused, likely because I am not caught up with all the facts yet....

 

[Sherazhad]

This is such an interesting thread. Reading through all the posts has given me different insights into the characters of Jodi & Travis. I don't always agree, but I can see many good arguments for why Jodi should have pled a crime of passion defense. I believe she intented to kill him & deserves a 1st degree murder conviction, but as many of this thread have pointed out she has a fragile ego & many women can identify with being used by a man they were in love with. I think if she had done that she would have avoided the death penalty I think she will receive. It's an insult to the jury to say she doesn't remember, she would have been better saying: I was out of my mind with rage & jealousy & all the hurt that had built up came out in a terrible rage. Also that she deepy regrets it- but this remorse is totally missing from Jodi, which is why I think she's dangerous. Also I believe with everything I have that Travis was not a paedophile, there was no evidence of this found on his computer & he seemed to like sex with the grown up Jodi just fine! I think she was the one dreaming up most of the sexual scenarios & like a kid in a sweet shop he loved it all & joined in himself. I don't believe she only recorded 1 conversation, I believe there were many more she deleted that show she was the one initiating him into all these fantasies. Even the one she kept was worse for her than him, he was desparately wanting to go to sleep, but she kept doing all she could to keep him on the line. He was actually sweet too, complimenting her on her looks. The most telling part of it though was when she said did he think they would find kinky Mormans like each other to marry, she was desparate for him to see they were meant for each other, but he didn't lead her on. Yes, it's tragic, but their time as a couple was relatively short lived, it's amazing to me she became d]so obsessed

 

[SMK]

This is such an interesting thread. Reading through all the posts has given me different insights into the characters of Jodi & Travis. I don't always agree, but I can see many good arguments for why Jodi should have pled a crime of passion defense. I believe she intented to kill him & deserves a 1st degree murder conviction, but as many of this thread have pointed out she has a fragile ego & many women can identify with being used by a man they were in love with. I think if she had done that she would have avoided the death penalty I think she will receive. It's an insult to the jury to say she doesn't remember, she would have been better saying: I was out of my mind with rage & jealousy & all the hurt that had built up came out in a terrible rage. Also that she deepy regrets it- but this remorse is totally missing from Jodi, which is why I think she's dangerous. Also I believe with everything I have that Travis was not a paedophile, there was no evidence of this found on his computer & he seemed to like sex with the grown up Jodi just fine! I think she was the one dreaming up most of the sexual scenarios & like a kid in a sweet shop he loved it all & joined in himself. I don't believe she only recorded 1 conversation, I believe there were many more she deleted that show she was the one initiating him into all these fantasies. Even the one she kept was worse for her than him, he was desparately wanting to go to sleep, but she kept doing all she could to keep him on the line. He was actually sweet too, complimenting her on her looks. The most telling part of it though was when she said did he think they would find kinky Mormans like each other to marry, she was desparate for him to see they were meant for each other, but he didn't lead her on. Yes, it's tragic, but their time as a couple was relatively short lived, it's amazing to me she became d]so obsessed

I agree with you. It was a crime of passion and because so brutal and executed on one so young and full of promise, must be punished but at least her honesty would have given her back her dignity and allowed for getting around the death penalty. The way she is playing it just makes her look like a Casey Anthony. Of course, that is probably part of her problem: No ability to be honest even to herself.

As for your last sentence: The emptier a person is , the more rapidly the obsession can begin to flame out of control, like a lit match on some dry, parched grass......

 

[lil_buddy]

SMK & Sherazhad -

Crime of passion and 1st degree murder are mutually exclusive.
JA did try to make a deal where she would plead guilty to 2nd degree:
http://grahamwinch.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/jodiariasngfile.pdf

I believe she could have avoided the DP if she pleaded guilty, cooperated with the authorities, and given a full confession.

One last thing: IMHO JA is a flaming narcissist and narcissists do not have "fragile egos".
http://health.usnews.com/health-new...cissism-and-narcissistic-personality-disorder

 

[SMK]

And, To the contrary, I think she used him by employing sex, role playing, and fantasy texting as a "love" tool. At first it was new and exciting to him, and I believe he genuinely cared for her. His later comment to her shows his hurt as the relationship disintegrates: I was nothing to you but a dildo with a beating heart."

As much as I am sure he felt that way, surely he was wrong. If true, then she could easily have gotten any number of men to play this role.

I believe she was likely obsessed with him as a substitute Self: When she realized that the sexual drama - probably the only area in which she knew/felt herself to be powerful and important - could be left behind by him , and that he had a whole future world to move on to (genuine religion, marriage, children, profession) while she was only going to get older and emptier - she probably believed that to destroy him was somehow to negate this chilling reality. Of course it did not negate it, but made it permanent and irredeemable.

 

[SMK]

SMK & Sherazhad -

Crime of passion and 1st degree murder are mutually exclusive.
JA did try to make a deal where she would plead guilty to 2nd degree:
http://grahamwinch.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/jodiariasngfile.pdf

I believe she could have avoided the DP if she pleaded guilty, cooperated with the authorities, and given a full confession.

One last thing: IMHO JA is a flaming narcissist and narcissists do not have "fragile egos".
http://health.usnews.com/health-new...cissism-and-narcissistic-personality-disorder

Point taken: But I think a Narcissist actually has a False Ego in place of a solid, healthy, genuine ego. On some level, the N knows he/she is an empty fake. I understand what the article is saying: But does a person who thinks they are awesome really want to bloody another person? I guess I would despise myself in her shoes.....

 

[Sherazhad]

My point was that she would have stood a better chance with the jury to avoid the death penalty if she had pleaded it was a crime of passion, I said also that I believed it was premeditated & deserved a murder in the 1st degree verdict.
I don't believe she is a narcissist, I believe she has extremely low self esteem & is capable of great evil when her fragile ego is wounded, i.e. Travis taking another woman to Cancoun. The cocky confident front she puts in is all a show- the long words she doesn't know the meaning of & the arrogant tone are all to hide an inferiority complex. Just my view anyway

 

[SMK]

My point was that she would have stood a better chance with the jury to avoid the death penalty if she had pleaded it was a crime of passion, I said also that I believed it was premeditated & deserved a murder in the 1st degree verdict.
I don't believe she is a narcissist, I believe she has extremely low self esteem & is capable of great evil when her fragile ego is wounded, i.e. Travis taking another woman to Cancoun. The cocky confident front she puts in is all a show- the long words she doesn't know the meaning of & the arrogant tone are all to hide an inferiority complex. Just my view anyway

I think you are right.
And I think that this is really true of narcissists deep down, so JA can be at once a narcissist and a person with a fragile ego.

The proof of this is that no normal person would ever want to be in her shoes. I would say the same holds for people such as Casey Anthony, Scott Peterson, and others deemed Narcissistic: How many of us would want to be them, to have lived like them and to have done what they did?

 

[Sherazhad]

In this thread there has been talk of Brian Blackwell, a diagnosed narcissist who murdered his parents. I know this case well, so I guess I don't believe Jodi is a narcissist as I see 2 very different personalities. Most narcissists build themselves up in the eyes of other people to be perfect. Jodi's 3 stories to police about Travis' death all present her as a pathetic victim, which I feel is more her personality- wallowing in self pity & secretly despising herself. She couldn't stand rejection by Travis as it fed into her fears that she isn't good enough.
Another reason I don't see her as a narcissist is that she is so lacking in identity that she becomes whoever her latest boyfriend is-i.e. a morman. Most narcissists like to have more influence on others, she is more of a follower.
Just my thoughts, I'm no expert on narcissists

 

[lil_buddy]

Point taken: But I think a Narcissist actually has a False Ego in place of a solid, healthy, genuine ego. On some level, the N knows he/she is an empty fake.

I'm curious to know why you believe this. Can you explain?

 

[lil_buddy]

She did a stint as her own lawyer - like Bundy.
Does this change your view at all re. narcissist?

Have you seen this video?
http://video.foxnews.com/v/2228988608001/

 

[BritsKate]

Comorbidity with personality disorders is very, very common. So Jodi *could* have NPD but also be borderline, antisocial, etc. With comorbidity - especially without an official diagnosis - it can be extremely difficult to ascertain exactly what particular makeup she is since one disorder may often be more prevalent than others.

Narcissistic rage can result from several disorders too despite its name. I think its highly likely Travis was murdered while Jodi was in such a rage.

JMO

 

[lil_buddy]

I think you are right.
And I think that this is really true of narcissists deep down, so JA can be at once a narcissist and a person with a fragile ego.

The proof of this is that no normal person would ever want to be in her shoes. I would say the same holds for people such as Casey Anthony, Scott Peterson, and others deemed Narcissistic: How many of us would want to be them, to have lived like them and to have done what they did?

I do not believe this is proof...
Narcissists are delusional. Narcissism it is a wrongful, irrational way of thinking.
They think that 'normal people' long to be like them, that normal people wish they had the guts to do the cruel evil things they do.

 

[SMK]

I'm curious to know why you believe this. Can you explain?

Several reasons:

• Having Ns in my family. Being familiar with their facades.
  
• Reading the works of psychologist Karen Horney (1885- 1952) , known best for her famous, "The Neurotic Personality of Our Time" in which she depicts the inflated, false ego of the person who has failed to become a genuine self.
  
• Lastly, having gone through a Narcissistic phase in my own youth: I acted like I thought I was a goddess, and people viewed me as a self-loving snob. Inside, at the time, I lived in constant fear of being found out to be a nobody.

 

[SMK]

I do not believe this is proof...
Narcissists are delusional. Narcissism it is a wrongful, irrational way of thinking.
They think that 'normal people' long to be like them, that normal people wish they had the guts to do the cruel evil things they do.

Maybe you are right. Maybe I am confusing a different phenomenum with Narcissism.