Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[deedee21]

I think Anne Rule will write a book. She writes true crime books.

 

[ISeeSociopaths]

Or B: Some kind of criminally minded individual who if not an actual prostitute was prostitute-like: Really just a petty criminal using sex as a way to get in on Travis' riches? And when the plan was not working, took a sort of criminal revenge the way drug dealers or pimps do?

Either way , she deserves the maximum punishment. But to me, it becomes a much less interesting story if it was B. If A, Travis fell into the hands of a psychopathic lover. If B, he simply got mixed up with some skanky criminal.[/QUOTE]

I think she is B- I don't think she knows what being human is. Her behavior is so Animal like- It's not complex-She stalked him in order to date him-She stalked him in order to control him- He couldn't be controlled so she stalked him in order to kill him.
If she had a higher cognition-she would have considered that she would get caught. Maybe there is something to her fog....anyway, JA carried out a cold blooded murder-I really don't see passion. In her mind maybe, but she is inhuman(in my opinion) she understands life from such basic of means.......food, sex, shelter(like an animal)
She says, she was frantic at various times of this testimony she feels the fight or flight instinct instead of human emotion...her adrenaline rushes, and she mistakes that for emotion.
Another example, her blatant lies- she does not have the mental capacity to know, that others see right through them(everyone here on websleuth)...it doesn't occur to her-truth or lies....have no meaning-when she speaks it is to get something out of it-her brain does not know one from the other. She doesn't care about the truth. She must have the biggest Lizard brain!

Oh, and I agree, she deserves the death penalty-and I don't even believe in the DP. I don't want to wait for her to kill again-if she ever got out. I think she would. ( I think she killed the family dog- when she was caught she had cat scratches on her, meaning she tortured her cat, although that could be a lie, and she abused a friends cat)
She was just gearing up for more terror.

 

[ISeeSociopaths]

[/QUOTE]

Regarding what I bolded---this has recently been debunked by research but I don't have the link handy. A recent study has found that Narcissists actually and truly believe they are superior. This counters the old theory that the Narcissist is suffering from low self esteem.
By the way, I believer firmly that JA is a BPD, Cluster B, Axis II with comorbidity.
Just my :twocents:

Its been said that people suffering from Narcissistic personality disorder don't get help for their problems because they don't believe they are the problem. They believe everyone else is the cause of their problems. So it wouldn't occur to them that they are the cause of everyone else's problems.
I don't know who debunked this theory...because there are not control groups to study...this is why- these behaviors were absorbed into the DVM's anti social behavior-
And every individual is different- so there is much overlap when it comes to this list of traits within Bordeline or antisocial behavior....
I don't know what cluster B-Axis II with comorbidity- (I'd have to look it up)but it sounds like groupings of traits within the Antisocial Behavior category...which she has up the wazoo...along with other stuff!
.Narcissists...they may believe they are better, smarter, richer, sexier, funnier...the list goes on....but from my research this is a defense mechanism they learned at an early age to cover up a distorted-miserable self image-deep down inside.

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

Histrionic fits too. Definitely Sociopath/Psychopath. Most of what I read all have narcissistic traits.

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

If Jodi was a high end escort, she would have more money. Jodi used sex as favors.
She got a helio from Gus and she probably received a well deserved facial.

 

[iSleuth]

Sorry if this article has been shared before, I think it is really interesting.

http://kristinarandle.com/blog/jodi-arias-essays/

<<The Diagnostic Significance of Jodi’s Unique Ability to Lie

Ms. Arias, compared to the normal individual, has a unique ability to lie. She lies, not always but always when it benefits her. It is the manner in which she lies which is the most revealing. A review of her video interviews will clearly demonstrate this. We first must recognize as we watch those videos, that she knows that she is lying. We don’t have to judge whether or not what she is saying is true because she has admitted that everything she said, in those interviews, was a lie. In the interviews she appears to be calm, serene, witty and charming. Wit and charm are characteristics of an individual with antisocial personality disorder. Both the wit and charm are used to manipulate others. Manipulating others is also characteristic of the antisocial.>>

 

[ShadyLadySleuth]

I am all for questions, as they facilitate debate. Even questions out of left field have been known to germinate answers in some direction. :rocker:

Agreed! Sometimes it's called "thinking outside the box." Think outside of your preconceived ideas. Don't automatically assume anything. Truth is stranger than fiction sometimes. IMO, it's a requirement to be a good detective.

 

[shelley921]

Regarding what I bolded---this has recently been debunked by research but I don't have the link handy. A recent study has found that Narcissists actually and truly believe they are superior. This counters the old theory that the Narcissist is suffering from low self esteem.
By the way, I believer firmly that JA is a BPD, Cluster B, Axis II with comorbidity.
Just my :twocents:

thanks..that is interesting...so narcissists actually believe they are superior. hmmmm..well o.k. but is that GENUINE self esteem? because to me real self esteem is "showing up" for yourself, taking responsibility, and acting in your own best interests. none of what jodi did - being promiscuous, dropping out of school, living a parasitic lifestyle, stalking, murder etc., was acting in her own best interests. the conduct she allowed herself to have was VERY counterproductive to HER. look where her behavior got her! her life is ruined.

 

[ShadyLadySleuth]

Here is something that hasn't been discussed. (or atleast as far as I have read) My theory. Who thinks, Jodi Arias was a prostitute? Who thinks Gus Searcy paid for her in the evenings at these PPL parties. I believe Juan Martinez was implying this during his testimony- asking what she wore- if they saw each other at night? He got her the phone- so he could reach her when he needed sex- or as payment? He seemed so Seedy! A Lech?
How did she get the money for those deposits in Pasadena? After she met with Gus Searcy...I think I know.

I've wondered the same thing. And where did she get the money for the road trip back to Arizona to murder Travis? She was said to be a poor money manager so I doubt she saved much money. She had to pay for the car rental, and gas, which is very $costly in California.

 

[shelley921]

Thanks for helping me understand self-esteem. She appears to be very vain in many ways. Her need to be in makeup even when being booked, she clearly was comfortable in taking very candid photos. The early morning wake ups are most likely her having to get makeup and clothing perfect. I think she also loves the spot light and she has received tons of attention. I worry about murder cases when a person is recognized so much in media. Some people will murder just to bring attention to themselves.

you're welcome. i am no expert and that's just my opinion based on what i have read. i like what iseesociopaths said:

"Narcissists...they may believe they are better, smarter, richer, sexier, funnier...the list goes on....but from my research this is a defense mechanism they learned at an early age to cover up a distorted-miserable self image-deep down inside...."

deep down inside they feel worthless....and maybe they can't even admit that to themselves......?
__________________

 

[crimesnooper]

Regarding what I bolded---this has recently been debunked by research but I don't have the link handy. A recent study has found that Narcissists actually and truly believe they are superior. This counters the old theory that the Narcissist is suffering from low self esteem.
By the way, I believer firmly that JA is a BPD, Cluster B, Axis II with comorbidity.
Just my :twocents:

Please eveyone have a cup of coffee while u read this, in case it bores you! This case has really made me question some of own values..and I hope that this will prove to be a good thing. We have talked a lot about sociopath/pschopath, ASPD and Narcissists and having grown up in a family with a few of those,I can attest that Narcissts do not suffer from low self esteem. They clearly think they are superior. JA proved that during her sparing with JM. This woman is on trial fro her life and she would rather appear to "win" and out do him rather than tone it down. Narcissts want to win at all cost and their sense of self rightenous allows them to dismiss any wrong doing, any responsibility for thier actions. You will never here the words,"I'm sorry, I was wrong." It's always what the other person did. ANd they believe it. My sister, a family therapist, to the world was brillant, and sounded so rational. To her family, she was a nightmare. The average person could not win an argument becuase she sounded so normal. Very JA like. But when you look at the behavior and not the words...the true story is there.I think too that for young people dating in the world...my old age advice would be...forget the words...always look at the behavior.

 

[SMK]

Please eveyone have a cup of coffee while u read this, in case it bores you! This case has really made me question some of own values..and I hope that this will prove to be a good thing. We have talked a lot about sociopath/pschopath, ASPD and Narcissists and having grown up in a family with a few of those,I can attest that Narcissts do not suffer from low self esteem. They clearly think they are superior. JA proved that during her sparing with JM. This woman is on trial fro her life and she would rather appear to "win" and out do him rather than tone it down. Narcissts want to win at all cost and their sense of self rightenous allows them to dismiss any wrong doing, any responsibility for thier actions. You will never here the words,"I'm sorry, I was wrong." It's always what the other person did. ANd they believe it. My sister, a family therapist, to the world was brillant, and sounded so rational. To her family, she was a nightmare. The average person could not win an argument becuase she sounded so normal. Very JA like. But when you look at the behavior and not the words...the true story is there.I think too that for young people dating in the world...my old age advice would be...forget the words...always look at the behavior.

Agree fully. I have a sister identical to yours.:furious:

 

[ShadyLadySleuth]

Thanks for helping me understand self-esteem. She appears to be very vain in many ways. Her need to be in makeup even when being booked, she clearly was comfortable in taking very candid photos. The early morning wake ups are most likely her having to get makeup and clothing perfect. I think she also loves the spot light and she has received tons of attention. I worry about murder cases when a person is recognized so much in media. Some people will murder just to bring attention to themselves.

For a long time I was sure she had low self-esteem, H.S. drop out, no real job skills except waitressing, promiscuous, string of failed relationships, etc. And then one of our WS posters gave us a link to an article showing the differences between ppl with low self-esteem and narcissists. Jodi fit nearly EVERY category of a NARCISSIST! I had to do an immediate about-face in my opinion of her. She definitely has no self-esteem problems. In fact, she thinks she is the sharpest knife in the block. Watch her hold her own with JM. Nothing fazes her.

 

[shelley921]

Please eveyone have a cup of coffee while u read this, in case it bores you! This case has really made me question some of own values..and I hope that this will prove to be a good thing. We have talked a lot about sociopath/pschopath, ASPD and Narcissists and having grown up in a family with a few of those,I can attest that Narcissts do not suffer from low self esteem. They clearly think they are superior. JA proved that during her sparing with JM. This woman is on trial fro her life and she would rather appear to "win" and out do him rather than tone it down. Narcissts want to win at all cost and their sense of self rightenous allows them to dismiss any wrong doing, any responsibility for thier actions. You will never here the words,"I'm sorry, I was wrong." It's always what the other person did. ANd they believe it. My sister, a family therapist, to the world was brillant, and sounded so rational. To her family, she was a nightmare. The average person could not win an argument becuase she sounded so normal. Very JA like. But when you look at the behavior and not the words...the true story is there.I think too that for young people dating in the world...my old age advice would be...forget the words...always look at the behavior.

thanks for this...interesting. ok they THINK they are always right and they are superior. but that doesn't mean that they ARE. i can think i'm a brain surgeon or a movie star but that doesn't mean I actually am one of those does it? so narcissists are fooling themselves. that to me isn't indicative of high self esteem. it's being foolish. it's not acting in your own best interests.

a teenager can think they know it all and act like a smart and a jerk. we've all been there and we've all known teens who are like this at some point in time. acting smart and superior doesn't mean that you ARE that way.

 

[shelley921]

For a long time I was sure she had low self-esteem, H.S. drop out, no real job skills except waitressing, promiscuous, string of failed relationships, etc. And then one of our WS posters gave us a link to an article showing the differences between ppl with low self-esteem and narcissists. Jodi fit nearly EVERY category of a NARCISSIST! I had to do an immediate about-face in my opinion of her. She definitely has no self-esteem problems. In fact, she thinks she is the sharpest knife in the block. Watch her hold her own with JM. Nothing fazes her.

SHE thinks she is superior and wonderful. but she is fooling herself. so how does that make her a person who values herself ? everything she did was against her own best interests. look where she is now.

 

[SMK]

SHE thinks she is superior and wonderful. but she is fooling herself. so how does that make her a person who values herself ? everything she did was against her own best interests. look where she is now.

Yes, she may be grandiose, and think she's a queen: But TRUE self-respect would have been moving on beyond Travis, getting her act together, learning from her mistakes, bettering herself.....Who would want to be in her shoes?

 

[shelley921]

Yes, she may be grandiose, and think she's a queen: But TRUE self-respect would have been moving on beyond Travis, getting her act together, learning from her mistakes, bettering herself.....Who would want to be in her shoes?

thanks yes that is the question...would anyone in their right mind want to be where she is now? would anyone in their right mind want to go through life fooling themself the way she did/does? i was just reading that the only way to feel adequate is to acknowledge your inadequacies.

 

[ursa32]

Its been said that people suffering from Narcissistic personality disorder don't get help for their problems because they don't believe they are the problem. They believe everyone else is the cause of their problems. So it wouldn't occur to them that they are the cause of everyone else's problems.
I don't know who debunked this theory...because there are not control groups to study...this is why- these behaviors were absorbed into the DVM's anti social behavior-
And every individual is different- so there is much overlap when it comes to this list of traits within Bordeline or antisocial behavior....
I don't know what cluster B-Axis II with comorbidity- (I'd have to look it up)but it sounds like groupings of traits within the Antisocial Behavior category...which she has up the wazoo...along with other stuff!
.Narcissists...they may believe they are better, smarter, richer, sexier, funnier...the list goes on....but from my research this is a defense mechanism they learned at an early age to cover up a distorted-miserable self image-deep down inside.[/QUOTE]


Craftily done, prosecutor Martinez wrote out an interesting list of traits while crossing Samuels, on several sheets of lined paper that was displayed on the overhead projector. I've been too busy to screen capture the pics of Martinez writing them down.

It would be interesting to reapply the list of traits with a different diagnostic goal. I think Martinez did it with intent to use the lists in the prosecution rebuttal, to highlight the traits/symptoms as leading to a different DSM diagnosis.

Then again, I don't respect Samuels work or testimony since (imo) his purpose was to obtain a PTSD diagnosis by administering and interpreting testing with a PTSD/trauma bias. I suspect he chose to overlook a more appropriate diagnosis, and if he did know what Jodi really is, or that she crafted her answers to fit the DX, he was in too far to recognize she'd manipulated him. Or maybe he just lacked experience with the BPD turned raging murderer patient, or whatever Jodi is.

 

[Melissa_75]

Ok so I am watching HLN's Friday recap of Jodi's 18 days on the stand and I cannot express how ticked I am watching Jodi cry over a pic that Martinez is showing Jodi and she is sitting there sobbing and covering her face and will not look at the monitor. UUUGGHHHHHH!!!!!!

On rebuttal I would love for Martinez to show the interrogation tape of her asking to see the crime scene photos, she wasn't crying then! And not only that clip but so many more clips of how she acted.

Also quite upset to hear that Martinez will not be calling Matt McCartney on rebuttal.

 

[IBsleuthin]

thanks for this...interesting. ok they THINK they are always right and they are superior. but that doesn't mean that they ARE. i can think i'm a brain surgeon or a movie star but that doesn't mean I actually am one of those does it? so narcissists are fooling themselves. that to me isn't indicative of high self esteem. it's being foolish. it's not acting in your own best interests.

a teenager can think they know it all and act like a smart and a jerk. we've all been there and we've all known teens who are like this at some point in time. acting smart and superior doesn't mean that you ARE that way.

<bolded by me>


I know far more about art than I do about psychology.

One of my favorite artists is Caravaggio. Fortunately in many psych 101 books a painting of his titled 'Narcissus' is often included in the section describing this particular mental disorder.

If you simply look at the painting without even reading the text you can get a firm grasp on the true understanding of a narcissist.

Look at how his arms meet the reflection of his arms in the water. This creates a complete circle. Look at his gaze, his body language and his facial expressions.

Narcissus was in love with his perceived reflection in the water. He was not covering up anything. This is not a product of poor self-esteem and a subsequent learned ability to mask that poor self-esteem. Narcissus TRULY AND DEEPLY believed that he WAS superior and above all else.


If you are not a brain surgeon but go around thinking and telling people you are this is a different type of personality disorder and operates on delusion.


As far as teenage behavior goes, the teen brain is not even completely developed yet and that alone is such a complex topic I think it's best served on a completely different thread.