Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[Cate49]

We are all flawed and if someone tells you their not...run.
"there's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in" Leonard Cohen

 

[Woe.be.gone]

The label 'psychopath' sounds so harsh that I have trouble labelling all or every person who has done a bad act or is insensitive, selfish, or self serving a psychopath. Their behavior could be the result of many other conditions. Is the CEO who is ruthless and cares mainly about himself and his own achievements a psychopath or just an uncaring, insensitive individual and/or basically a narcissist, albeit a smart one?

It's just that the word 'psychopath' sounds like the terriblist of terriblist people who have ever lived. Like Dahmer, Gacy, Bundy and every serial killer who has walked this earth - Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, and Stalin to name several more.

Sociopath sounds more like someone who doesn't care about other people and, without blinking, will/can hurt people in many different ways like in a business environment for instance. The mental health system has lumped the two terms together but I can't get used to reading psychopath in regard to anyone who commits a crime or carries through with a heartless act. The word psychopath conjures up images of the craziest of crazies to me.

The fact that JA stabbed TA relentlessly is an action of someone who is psycho but I'm not sure if she's a psychopath. Certainly her feelings don't appear to be in line with her actions as I've not sensed she feels any remorse pver what she did to him. She seems sort of dead inside and very flatlined. In old pictures of her with TA, I see some light there in her eyes and sense joy or happiness in her expressions. The woman, Julie C., said that JA acted like a zombie, so JC didn't try to converse with JA. :waitasec: I point this out because, usually, psychopaths are very charming. The woman who worked in an office with Bundy only had good things to say about him due to his charm that he didn't turn on and off - in public he was charming. She had a hard time wrapping her head around the fact that he was linked to the murders he committed. In contrast, it sounds as if people thought JA was weird all along and didn't put much effort into getting to know her.

When is it appropriate for one Mormon to inquire to another Mormon as to their state of mind, how they feel, if they are learning anything, etc.? It may be because it's after the fact but, a few of TA's friends have said that they just ignored her or she was a non entity other than she was with TA. That's not very nice/spiritual. I wonder if any of their girlfriends or wives tried to get to know her and include her in their group? I'd like to hear if they did but that she was the one who didn't welcome their invites versus never being asked to join them.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I'm borderline, but I can relate to this somewhat although I'm slightly different. I relate to the it being polite, but at the same time I also feel like I'm lying, because if I don't know the person who died or was injured I have no emotional attachment to them so, not intended to be harsh, but I don't care and I'm not sure why someone would expect me to care. I'd never be blunt and say that to someone, but that is what's taking place in my head. I suppose I feel this way to a lesser degree in other instances as well. I am wondering now exactly how does it help? Why would you even care?

My emotions are weird in that I understand happiness, sadness, anger and I know when I'm experiencing them, but the more subtle ones give me difficult because I don't know what they are or maybe what to call them is a better way of putting it. For ie. I'll hear someone on TV talk about an experience and how it made them feel and by their description I can relate that to how I felt in a past situation, and that's how I know what to call it. I know what I'm trying to say, but it's not coming out the right way I don't think.

Most people relate how someone else must be feeling because they themselves have felt like that at one time too. But, for instance, I'm pretty old yet both my parents are still living. Many of my friends have lost one or both parents already. Whenever I've heard the news from one of them I can only imagine how they are feeling, right? It's a big change and they'll never see their mom or dad again. Holidays will change. Maybe mom is the only one who truly cares that it's their birthday and now she's gone. Or, maybe the person has unfinished business with their parent and it throws them into a tailspin. But, until I go through it and I'm not looking forward to it, I can't really know know how it feels when a parent dies. Add to that that everyone is different, has different levels of closeness and if we can imagine, may even be somewhat relieved (due to bad treatment or the suffering of the parent, etc.) So, on some level, unless we've experienced something ourself, we can only imagine what a person is going through. Offering condolences, a shoulder to cry on or even physical acts of kindness (cook a meal, keep in touch via phone calls or take the person out to dinner, etc.) are spurred by heartfelt concern about a person you know is going through something. You can't feel the same as they do at the time because it's not you who is going through the loss. So, thoughtfulness is learned behavior even when one's feelings can't match the circumstances.

On the other spectrum, is someone who feels too much and believes it's his or her responsibility to fix things to make it all better for someone else which, I know, can't be done.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

We are all flawed and if someone tells you their not...run.
"there's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in" Leonard Cohen

Another way to think about this is that we all have different strengths and weaknessess. Assuming we all have free will (not true of all people in all circumstances imo) and, if mentally sound, the ability to make our own decisions. When young peeps make mistakes, many will learn from them and do better next time. If peeps are surrounded by ugliness and bad behavior, that can impede their growth and make it difficult to become their best self.

We usually look to people for their strengths (not to automatically point out their flaws). So a person, unless you know them well, doesn't usually announce their flaws right away, even if aware of them, but wishes to put their best foot forward. That's why getting to know someone takes time so that you can try to gage if they're authentic, are true to themself and over time to you, can engage in a fair discussion and you can begin to sense if they're a decent person despite their quirks. We all have personality traits, habits and behaviors that could be considered flaws but are what they are only different from someone elses but not sinister in any way.

Sinister is what to look out for and can be disguised for sure.

By the way, it seems better now, but did anybody else have trouble getting on WS and posting today?

 

[Curious Me]

I think she has a gooey, chewy, psychopath center wrapped up in a layer of antisocial personality, covered in a candy shell of borderline personality features.

She's a psychopath who has no empathy for others, she can't connect to anyone in her family, she is narcissistic and believes she can charm her way through life, uses sex to get what she wants. She wants what (and who) she wants and you better not go against her will, you might just die for it.

:laughcry: You cracked me up.

She could honestly tell people she's a Pop Rocks Star.

BBM

 

[ilovewings]

There's a difference in owning your sexuality and using it as a weapon. JA, IMO, uses it as a weapon. She doesn't have to be all " yeah I'm a freak whatever". But don't cry rape when there are nude photos of you, sex tapes, and you drove states away to hook up with the dude. Don't act like Miss Frazzle from the Magic School Bus when I've seen you trying to rock the cheerleader look. I won't say TA was just a "dude", but he was not thinking with his brain. Sex releases endorphins and JA had him hooked. If she can call him abusive, I'm calling her a drug dealer. Sounds stupid, right? JA is manipulative and is still manipulating from behind bars. Her murder of TA reminds me of Ted Bundy almost. It's creepy and sick. Just like Bundy, she can't take responsibility.

I also believe that Jodi's rage continues to know no bounds; Under her placid soft spoken school marm demeanor she remains beyond angry at Travis which is why she is killing him a 2nd time, this time in the courtroom. She gets to demean, slander, "de-edify", his reputation, his essence, making him a pervert, a deviant, a batterer; she is laughing inside as she sits onthe stand and captivates the world with tales of what a horrible person Travis supposedly was. And she can twist the knife again and again by hurting the people he loved the most, his family and good friends to boot. Even if people don't believe her, she is getting her message out that she wants out there, that Travis was a monster.

She is the most vile defendant i have ever witnessed in a trial on the stand. She is cunning, calculating and souless. I hope and pray she gets the needle.

 

[lil_buddy]

I also believe that Jodi's rage continues to know no bounds; Under her placid soft spoken school marm demeanor she remains beyond angry at Travis which is why she is killing him a 2nd time, this time in the courtroom. She gets to demean, slander, "de-edify", his reputation, his essence, making him a pervert, a deviant, a batterer; she is laughing inside as she sits onthe stand and captivates the world with tales of what a horrible person Travis supposedly was. And she can twist the knife again and again by hurting the people he loved the most, his family and good friends to boot. Even if people don't believe her, she is getting her message out that she wants out there, that Travis was a monster.

She is the most vile defendant i have ever witnessed in a trial on the stand. She is cunning, calculating and souless. I hope and pray she gets the needle.

I'm curious since I'm an atheist... Are you a Christian? Do you really pray to God asking for JA to get the DP?

 

[Curious Me]

somebody contact the aliens to come take her back


:ufo:

 

[Tiger09]

W

I'm curious since I'm an atheist... Are you a Christian? Do you really pray to God asking for JA to get the DP?

I was raised Catholic, but I don't do organized religion- personal choice, no disrespect to anyone who does. I do believe in God, and if I'm correct, all Christ based religions are of the belief that your body is a temple and taking your own life and/or someone else's is wrong. Assisted suicide falls under that which begging for the death penalty sounds like to me, and you can add her other suicide ideation and attempts. It's not like excommunication you're going to hell if you're suicidal, but if you do commit suicide and slaughter a man three different ways- well there may not be pearly gates in your future. That's according to Christian belief, but Catholic belief, she can repent I think but must truly be sorry and do a penance. Do I pray for her to get the death penalty? No. I pray for peace for Travis Akexander's family, friends, loved ones, and for Travis Alexander himself. That he may rest in peace. I don't pray for Jodi Arias at all. I pray that Travis's legacy lives on and that he's remembered as more than a victim, but as a person.

 

[lil_buddy]

somebody contact the aliens to come take her back


:ufo:

lemme go get my aluminum foil hat...

 

[ilovewings]

I'm curious since I'm an atheist... Are you a Christian? Do you really pray to God asking for JA to get the DP?

i am not an athiest nor a christian. perhaps i should have phrased it differently. I strongly believe this woman deserves death for the brutal slaughter of Travis Alexander.

 

[Curious Me]

lemme go get my aluminum foil hat...

Better warn the aliens' leader that she'll probably try to seduce said leader saying she's dabbling in the culture. She brings a new philosophy to introduce them to called the Law of ...

 

[zaza]

The label 'psychopath' sounds so harsh that I have trouble labelling all or every person who has done a bad act or is insensitive, selfish, or self serving a psychopath. Their behavior could be the result of many other conditions. Is the CEO who is ruthless and cares mainly about himself and his own achievements a psychopath or just an uncaring, insensitive individual and/or basically a narcissist, albeit a smart one?

It's just that the word 'psychopath' sounds like the terriblist of terriblist people who have ever lived. Like Dahmer, Gacy, Bundy and every serial killer who has walked this earth - Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, and Stalin to name several more.

Sociopath sounds more like someone who doesn't care about other people and, without blinking, will/can hurt people in many different ways like in a business environment for instance. The mental health system has lumped the two terms together but I can't get used to reading psychopath in regard to anyone who commits a crime or carries through with a heartless act. The word psychopath conjures up images of the craziest of crazies to me.

The fact that JA stabbed TA relentlessly is an action of someone who is psycho but I'm not sure if she's a psychopath. Certainly her feelings don't appear to be in line with her actions as I've not sensed she feels any remorse pver what she did to him. She seems sort of dead inside and very flatlined. In old pictures of her with TA, I see some light there in her eyes and sense joy or happiness in her expressions. The woman, Julie C., said that JA acted like a zombie, so JC didn't try to converse with JA. :waitasec: I point this out because, usually, psychopaths are very charming. The woman who worked in an office with Bundy only had good things to say about him due to his charm that he didn't turn on and off - in public he was charming. She had a hard time wrapping her head around the fact that he was linked to the murders he committed. In contrast, it sounds as if people thought JA was weird all along and didn't put much effort into getting to know her.

When is it appropriate for one Mormon to inquire to another Mormon as to their state of mind, how they feel, if they are learning anything, etc.? It may be because it's after the fact but, a few of TA's friends have said that they just ignored her or she was a non entity other than she was with TA. That's not very nice/spiritual. I wonder if any of their girlfriends or wives tried to get to know her and include her in their group? I'd like to hear if they did but that she was the one who didn't welcome their invites versus never being asked to join them.

I think JA is very charming! Her whole affect is meant to charm and show off how smart and articulate, oh, and how compassionate she is but it's all a performance. There are lots of sociopaths running around believe it or not. They have difficulty making close connections and are incapable of intimacy or showing real emotional bonds. They learn to cope by avoiding situations where they will have to engage on any kind of emotional level. In short, they lack the ability to empathize - very important if you want to make close social connections! She can't do that.

I don't think TA's Mormon friends shunned JA, I think JA was so incapable of engaging with others in group situations that she avoided them either by ignoring them or by focusing exclusively on TA so she didn't have to engage with anyone else. She can only handle one person at a time, and if you notice, she doesn't seem to have any girlfriends - it's always about a man. Sociopaths learn how to mimic emotions and appropriate social behaviors because they know it's expected of them. They guide their lives through manipulating others - it is a defense mechanism that is necessary for their survival because ultimately they can't trust or get close to anyone.

 

[Tsunvirtual]

On JUNE 4th, TRAVIS IS KILLED! It's not rocket science. She leaves him a $200 check in his desk that is dated May 26. She left it there for the cops to think it was mailed to him days before.

It would be very interesting to see her check register. There could be checks written that have a later date on them but an earlier check number than this one.

I think that check was her ticket in. She probably apologized and gave him the check to make it appear she was going to change her ways.

 

[Tsunvirtual]

I'm borderline, but I can relate to this somewhat although I'm slightly different. I relate to the it being polite, but at the same time I also feel like I'm lying, because if I don't know the person who died or was injured I have no emotional attachment to them so, not intended to be harsh, but I don't care and I'm not sure why someone would expect me to care. I'd never be blunt and say that to someone, but that is what's taking place in my head. I suppose I feel this way to a lesser degree in other instances as well. I am wondering now exactly how does it help? Why would you even care?

My emotions are weird in that I understand happiness, sadness, anger and I know when I'm experiencing them, but the more subtle ones give me difficult because I don't know what they are or maybe what to call them is a better way of putting it. For ie. I'll hear someone on TV talk about an experience and how it made them feel and by their description I can relate that to how I felt in a past situation, and that's how I know what to call it. I know what I'm trying to say, but it's not coming out the right way I don't think.

I think you explained yourself quite well. It's like trying to explain the color Yellow to a blind person. Are you able to identify the subtle emotions the next time you experience them?

 

[Ricochet]

I'll try and give an example of how I think about things and then answer your question.

I had someone that I would consider a friend, he was a professional musician, had a few hits in the 70's, and he understood me, didn't put pressure on me and we kept in contact. He passed away last year. My Psychiatrist asked me how that made me feel, and my response was "I don't know, he's dead, what do you want me to feel?" Yet, if I was there in the moment where emotions would be more intense it would affect me more. Then there are others that I could careless either way.

Those types of things do not really bother me to the best of my knowledge. I don't care, but at the same time it doesn't make me happy. I know what a socially acceptable response would be, I may or may not feel comfortable in saying it, but at the same time I'm not hurting them emotionally and I'm being socially respectable. Regardless in most instances I don't care. There is probably something that occurred in childhood that relates specifically to me and how I think now. I'm not sure I'd have to think about it.

I think you explained yourself quite well. It's like trying to explain the color Yellow to a blind person. Are you able to identify the subtle emotions the next time you experience them?

There was a situation that happened not long ago, but I don't remember so I'll try to explain. It will at least give you an idea. There can be something that's going on inside of me and I assume it's just normal, and then when I hear someone talking about similar feelings and label it whatever that emotion is it will click inside of me what I felt wasn't normal it was whatever the more subtle emotion is. So, I have them but I don't know how to label them and so I assume it's normal when it's not. This does bother me, and I'm somewhat envious of those who can label and know what those emotions are. This is part of what dbt gets into in the emotion regulation section, learning how to label emotions. If I was exposed to it enough I'd be able to do this, but I'm not so I forget.

There are different modes that someone with bpd can enter and possibly other personality disorders. This would best describe me http://www.dbyounger.com/blog/?p=86. I don't allow people to get to close to me and at least for the time being that's how I prefer it because they can't hurt me emotionally and I can't hurt them emotionally, because I don't want the emotional craziness that others with bpd have.

Anyways, people who assume we feel nothing, when we rage and create emotional stress on someone are wrong. We are also in distress and hurting emotionally but it's coming from a different perspective. If someone with bpd takes dbt and learns how to really analyze their anger they'll learn it's not just randomly getting angry. They will learn almost always the underlying emotion which triggers the anger/rage is fear of losing something/someone. It's instantaneous fear is sensed and rage kicks in, and then once that intensity dies down we become apologetic and needy and the friendship/relationship either ends which makes us more needy/apologetic until we move on or the cycle repeats. When you read the criteria for bpd and it says emotionally unstable or unstable relationships this is what that is referring to. This is probably the hardest thing to overcome, and I've not been able to overcome but because I've entered a mode which is called the detached protector (see above link) I don't experience this instability. I'm not better it's just a different state of dysfunction which is caused by not knowing how to deal with emotions in a more normal functional way. I've destroyed many friendships/relationships through the years which doesn't make me happy quite the opposite.

I have no idea how the hell I got into the subject of those last 2 paragraphs. I'm sorry for rambling..

 

[zaza]

I'll try and give an example of how I think about things and then answer your question.

I had someone that I would consider a friend, he was a professional musician, had a few hits in the 70's, and he understood me, didn't put pressure on me and we kept in contact. He passed away last year. My Psychiatrist asked me how that made me feel, and my response was "I don't know, he's dead, what do you want me to feel?" Yet, if I was there in the moment where emotions would be more intense it would affect me more. Then there are others that I could careless either way.

Those types of things do not really bother me to the best of my knowledge. I don't care, but at the same time it doesn't make me happy. I know what a socially acceptable response would be, I may or may not feel comfortable in saying it, but at the same time I'm not hurting them emotionally and I'm being socially respectable. Regardless in most instances I don't care. There is probably something that occurred in childhood that relates specifically to me and how I think now. I'm not sure I'd have to think about it.



There was a situation that happened not long ago, but I don't remember so I'll try to explain. It will at least give you an idea. There can be something that's going on inside of me and I assume it's just normal, and then when I hear someone talking about similar feelings and label it whatever that emotion is it will click inside of me what I felt wasn't normal it was whatever the more subtle emotion is. So, I have them but I don't know how to label them and so I assume it's normal when it's not. This does bother me, and I'm somewhat envious of those who can label and know what those emotions are. This is part of what dbt gets into in the emotion regulation section, learning how to label emotions. If I was exposed to it enough I'd be able to do this, but I'm not so I forget.

There are different modes that someone with bpd can enter and possibly other personality disorders. This would best describe me http://www.dbyounger.com/blog/?p=86. I don't allow people to get to close to me and at least for the time being that's how I prefer it because they can't hurt me emotionally and I can't hurt them emotionally, because I don't want the emotional craziness that others with bpd have.

Anyways, people who assume we feel nothing, when we rage and create emotional stress on someone are wrong. We are also in distress and hurting emotionally but it's coming from a different perspective. If someone with bpd takes dbt and learns how to really analyze their anger they'll learn it's not just randomly getting angry. They will learn almost always the underlying emotion which triggers the anger/rage is fear of losing something/someone. It's instantaneous fear is sensed and rage kicks in, and then once that intensity dies down we become apologetic and needy and the friendship/relationship either ends which makes us more needy/apologetic until we move on or the cycle repeats. When you read the criteria for bpd and it says emotionally unstable or unstable relationships this is what that is referring to. This is probably the hardest thing to overcome, and I've not been able to overcome but because I've entered a mode which is called the detached protector (see above link) I don't experience this instability. I'm not better it's just a different state of dysfunction which is caused by not knowing how to deal with emotions in a more normal functional way. I've destroyed many friendships/relationships through the years which doesn't make me happy quite the opposite.

I have no idea how the hell I got into the subject of those last 2 paragraphs. I'm sorry for rambling..

Ricochet, thanks so much for sharing your personal experiences. I give you a lot of credit for persevering to get help. I understand your difficulties with forming lasting relationships. On the one hand there is a desire to form relationships and on the other hand there is great fear of abandonment whether through death or rejection. The bpd is between a rock and a hard spot about whether to venture out and attempt connection and when they do many times they wind up sabotaging it - and certainly not intentionally but by behaving inappropriately according to some social norm or connecting to people who will ultimately judge and reject them. It's too painful (a cycle of rage and pain) to go through it again and again over the course of life so they wind up alone. I actually had a longtime, childhood friend who was bpd (she passed away in 2004). Thank you again, for sharing.

 

[pinkie60]

I had heard about this case, but I didn't know the trial was going on until I heard about Jodi testifying. That's the only part I've seen. I've read over this site for the past few days. I've seen some of the pictures Jodi took on June 4. There is one that shows Travis's face at 5:29. I think he looks scared. Do you think Jodi was facing him with either the gun or the knife when this picture was taken and that he knew at that time that he was going to die?

i know there were no drugs in travis system, but i still wonder. he ate oatmeal, if she laced it with something, date rape drug, something she had researched. could acct for his legs getting weak in the shower and him sitting on the drain, perhaps he just caught on she had given him something when the picture was snapped. just pondering.:twocents:

 

[Cate49]

Ricochet, thanks so much for sharing your personal experiences. I give you a lot of credit for persevering to get help. I understand your difficulties with forming lasting relationships. On the one hand there is a desire to form relationships and on the other hand there is great fear of abandonment whether through death or rejection. The bpd is between a rock and a hard spot about whether to venture out and attempt connection and when they do many times they wind up sabotaging it - and certainly not intentionally but by behaving inappropriately according to some social norm or connecting to people who will ultimately judge and reject them. It's too painful (a cycle of rage and pain) to go through it again and again over the course of life so they wind up alone. I actually had a longtime, childhood friend who was bpd (she passed away in 2004). Thank you again, for sharing.

Ricochet again much thanks for your personal insight so brave. My question is how does someone know that they are unwell? Do you think Jodi knows that she is messed up in her mind?

 

[Tiger09]

What I've learned in therapy is that the unwell don't realize they need any help at all. Jodi throws a lot of shade on Travis, so I don't think she sees herself as wrong. Her lawyers are coaching her to say she is wrong and sorry. True breakthrough comes from accepting who you are and what you have done. Jodi can't do that. So in her world, she is sane and everyone is harassing her and she is this pure princess. She probably thinks Travis is alive and they are still together.