Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[SMK]

Just wondering if anyone has opinions on the following: (not related to the trial in any way, just to the psychology of Jodi's criminal intent)

As I said I only came to this case a couple of weeks ago as I had been too busy before. I knew a girl named Jodi had killed an ex and was standing trial but knew nothing more.

I read a bunch of blog posts and websites and someone had the theory that because:

1. TA's throat was slit "ear to ear" which is also stated in the Book of Mormon as being the punishment for one who broke a covenant. (this checks out)
2. Jodi carried two gas cans yet still did stop for gas as receipts show.
3. Jodi told the detective, "If Travis were here, he would tell you it wasn't me."
4. TA's last live picture in the shower is of a man in disbelief of what he is seeing.
5. JA told detective: There were 2 intruders with ski masks: an aggressive female with a knife and a man who was quiet.

Therefore:
From the above facts, this blogger developed a theory that:

• Jodi wanted TA dead so she could move on without having to see him marry, become more successful, without her.
  [*]She decided that as she lived in California, if she was careful, no one would suspect her. (dumb)
  [*]She decided to make it look like some Mormon retribution hit (#1 above)
  
  and probably had donned a ski mask (#4 above)
  
  and may have even made TA believe there were 2 people to subdue him by calling out to a man who was not present(#s 3 & 5 above)
  
  and had planned to set fire to the house to destroy evidence (#2 above) but something stopped her. (someone came home next door?)and also she had not anticipated such a struggle, but had envisioned maybe slashing him and shooting him once- did not imagine he would lunge out to the sink and down the hall....

To me, at least this theory hangs together well. Maybe I'm the only one fascinated with this kind of theorizing. Apologies if so.

Doesn't matter with the trial outcome, but it is compelling all the same.....It makes a certain amount of sense and hangs together logically as a theory.

and of course if this was JA's perfect plan it was an epic fail. ( When it failed, first she attempted to hold to it ( not there) then she attempted to hold to it but with her present, then she gave up and spun out the self-defense.....)
may be that this is OT and belongs on another thread. If so, sorry for error.

 

[BritsKate]

From reading her blog and discerning her spiritual interests, I think the Mormonism was never more than an attempt to become wife-material for Travis.

Absolutely positively. That alone is indicative of psychopathy to me. I call them chameleons but they have this eerie capability of morphing into whatever you want them to be. They just sense it somehow. Dr. Hare calls them an intra-species predator and I think that's about as accurate a description as one can get.

My own psychopath was Prince Charming for the first six months of our relationship, until I was living with him and had no where else to go, then the cracks began appearing.

It's uncanny but really if you're religious, they'll be religious; if you like art, they'll love art; if you mention a book, they've read everyone by the same author. It's their hook. They appear to be everything you've ever wanted. I'm convinced the phrase 'too good to be true' was brought about as a result of a psychopath. :biggrin:

I'd posted this in the main thread earlier when talking about a psychopath's relationship process. You guys might find it interesting, it really is very spot on:
http://psychopathyawareness.wordpre...ationship-cycle-idealize-devalue-and-discard/

 

[Cate49]

Was thinking today..much to my surprise. Seems so long ago now since she took stand. Remember she accused Travis of affair with LDS woman and placed it out in public to slaughter his character. The woman took stand and said this was just another lie . Jodi will dirty the name of anyone in order to save her own @ss she is a piece of work

 

[Negative green]

Reposting...

Hey guys!
In a bunch of posts I mentioned an episode of Wives With Knives that tells the story of Nancy Anderson who stabbed her husband in the back.
This woman reminded me of JA very much.
Board member luv was able to find the video and posted the link.
I'm going to repost the link for anyone interested.
www.novamov.com/video/b7jyyxoj5q7hf
Enjoy!
I'm dying to hear what you guys think.


Edit: I found an article about this case. It was difficult because they changed the last names and city in the TV show.
http://www.theweeklyvice.com/2008/07/nancy-bautista-case-of-backstabbing.html

She sounds like a sweetheart compared to Jodi, she only stabbed him in the back once, didn't shoot him and eventually (maybe because he didn't die soon enough) called her daughter who called emergency. Yup a veritable Girl Scout.

 

[AnesthesiaAngel]

As a former psychiatric RN, I am greatly concerned that a PhD psychologist has done such a poor job of evaluating JA. Today he basically told Juan that he (and others in his profession) are trained to remain objective and maintain boundaries. Well, yeah. Okay. But let's get real here. The reality is, mental health professionals lose their licenses for sexual relationships with clients, teachers with students, correctional officers with inmates, coaches with players, yadayadayada......Wake up and smell the coffee.
I sense that Dr Samuels has some personal boundary issues. He states he had/has "compassion" for her. His job was not to have "compassion" for her, but to evaluate her objectively, for the purposes of a psychological evaluation for an expert defense testimony. Thats all.
And if he cant sense that Miss Jodi is capable of being assertive, he has not observed her thoroughly. If he cannot sense the overt pathological overtones of Jodi, he is sooooooooooo naive.
I have worked with patients diagnosed with every psychiatric disorder in the DSM IV, even worked in a unit which treated just patients diagnosed with Dissociative Identity Disorder (formely called Multiple Personality Disorder), and worked on chemical dependency/detox units, and in maximum security prisons, where of course you see alot of mental illness among the offender population.
I can literally look down range on a prison yard at a group of inmates, not knowing their rap sheet, and pick out which ones are the child molesters, sex offenders, murderers. Just from my many years experience. It's just a "gut" thing. I dont know how to explain it. And I am alot younger than Bozo the clown.
All I can say is that I am glad Dr Buffoon aint on the jury. The jurors are alot smarter than he is.
Where the hell did they get this fool? His license needs to be revoked. He aint ever going to get hired to work a trial case again in this country. Wow.
Juan, you are amazing. Justice for Travis is coming. Jodi, wipe that smile off your face, and realize that your days of wearing civilian clothes loaned by Willmott in a courtroom are numbered cuz you are fixin to going back to wearing your prison jumpsuit for the rest of your life 24/7.

 

[SMK]

Absolutely positively. That alone is indicative of psychopathy to me. I call them chameleons but they have this eerie capability of morphing into whatever you want them to be. They just sense it somehow. Dr. Hare calls them an intra-species predator and I think that's about as accurate a description as one can get.

My own psychopath was Prince Charming for the first six months of our relationship, until I was living with him and had no where else to go, then the cracks began appearing.

It's uncanny but really if you're religious, they'll be religious; if you like art, they'll love art; if you mention a book, they've read everyone by the same author. It's their hook. They appear to be everything you've ever wanted. I'm convinced the phrase 'too good to be true' was brought about as a result of a psychopath. :biggrin:

I'd posted this in the main thread earlier when talking about a psychopath's relationship process. You guys might find it interesting, it really is very spot on:
http://psychopathyawareness.wordpre...ationship-cycle-idealize-devalue-and-discard/

Thanks for that link. Yes, I had a similar experience back when I was not wary of psychopathology and it was the same pattern:

He mirrored all my interests so fully that I thought we were "a match made in heaven" - until I found out it was just the chameleon quality of manipulation. Turns out we had not a thing in common. :furious:

 

[Gecko100]

Men are not good a taking hints. IME

I often wish we didn't know about the religious aspect of this case. because it confuses the issues. Not that her culpability is in question, but when I read stuff about the church I am compelled to think about the book 'Damned and God's Police' by Anne Summers. It's a feminist argument, but so befitting of aspects of this case which raises questions about the labelling of women as either/or, and judging them accordingly.:truce:

 

[Estelle]

Absolutely positively. That alone is indicative of psychopathy to me. I call them chameleons but they have this eerie capability of morphing into whatever you want them to be. They just sense it somehow. Dr. Hare calls them an intra-species predator and I think that's about as accurate a description as one can get.

My own psychopath was Prince Charming for the first six months of our relationship, until I was living with him and had no where else to go, then the cracks began appearing.

It's uncanny but really if you're religious, they'll be religious; if you like art, they'll love art; if you mention a book, they've read everyone by the same author. It's their hook. They appear to be everything you've ever wanted. I'm convinced the phrase 'too good to be true' was brought about as a result of a psychopath. :biggrin:

I'd posted this in the main thread earlier when talking about a psychopath's relationship process. You guys might find it interesting, it really is very spot on:
http://psychopathyawareness.wordpre...ationship-cycle-idealize-devalue-and-discard/

Very interesting article that everyone should read. Thanks.

 

[DebinGA]

As a former psychiatric RN, I am greatly concerned that a PhD psychologist has done such a poor job of evaluating JA. Today he basically told Juan that he (and others in his profession) are trained to remain objective and maintain boundaries. Well, yeah. Okay. But let's get real here. The reality is, mental health professionals lose their licenses for sexual relationships with clients, teachers with students, correctional officers with inmates, coaches with players, yadayadayada......Wake up and smell the coffee.
I sense that Dr Samuels has some personal boundary issues. He states he had/has "compassion" for her. His job was not to have "compassion" for her, but to evaluate her objectively, for the purposes of a psychological evaluation for an expert defense testimony. Thats all.
And if he cant sense that Miss Jodi is capable of being assertive, he has not observed her thoroughly. If he cannot sense the overt pathological overtones of Jodi, he is sooooooooooo naive.
I have worked with patients diagnosed with every psychiatric disorder in the DSM IV, even worked in a unit which treated just patients diagnosed with Dissociative Identity Disorder (formely called Multiple Personality Disorder), and worked on chemical dependency/detox units, and in maximum security prisons, where of course you see alot of mental illness among the offender population.
I can literally look down range on a prison yard at a group of inmates, not knowing their rap sheet, and pick out which ones are the child molesters, sex offenders, murderers. Just from my many years experience. It's just a "gut" thing. I dont know how to explain it. And I am alot younger than Bozo the clown.
All I can say is that I am glad Dr Buffoon aint on the jury. The jurors are alot smarter than he is.
Where the hell did they get this fool? His license needs to be revoked. He aint ever going to get hired to work a trial case again in this country. Wow.
Juan, you are amazing. Justice for Travis is coming. Jodi, wipe that smile off your face, and realize that your days of wearing civilian clothes loaned by Willmott in a courtroom are numbered cuz you are fixin to going back to wearing your prison jumpsuit for the rest of your life 24/7.

Awesome post! I'd appreciate informed opinions about how Jodi would fare in "max" custody, hopefully in a cell alone 23/7. Do psychopaths need to have direct contact with their "marks" to be happy, or is manipulation-by-mail satisfactory?

 

[SMK]

I often wish we didn't know about the religious aspect of this case. because it confuses the issues. Not that her culpability is in question, but when I read stuff about the church I am compelled to think about the book 'Damned and God's Police' by Anne Summers. It's a feminist argument, but so befitting of aspects of this case which raises questions about the labelling of women as either/or, and judging them accordingly.:truce:

I would agree that Arias was indeed a victim of TA's "Mormon Virgin you marry/ that you use" dichotomy. I have no doubt of this.

It just doesn't excuse the murder. She ought to have written him an email telling him that she had finally grasped this, was appalled by it, and to "have a nice life, I just left the Mormon church , you can have it".

In a sense, she gave the whole thing far too much credit. But being in love can drive you mad. It was a crime of passion, for sure. And premeditated in the heat of madness. I can have sympathy but with such an heinous act, (and when viewing the crime scene photos, my sympathy shifts all to him) you have to submit to the law, and not lie about self defense.

And by the way, I think the religious aspects are very important - and can make one view Travis as another victim of this sort of religious dualism.

 

[SMK]

I often wish we didn't know about the religious aspect of this case. because it confuses the issues. Not that her culpability is in question, but when I read stuff about the church I am compelled to think about the book 'Damned and God's Police' by Anne Summers. It's a feminist argument, but so befitting of aspects of this case which raises questions about the labelling of women as either/or, and judging them accordingly.:truce:

I had posted this on another thread but believe it may also be relevant to your point so will post it here:

Just a side not which is not exactly tied in with the idea of premeditation, but with self-defense. One of the most favorable areas to the defense - and thus dangerous to the prosecution - is the testimony that TA had all sorts of anal and oral sex with JA on the day of Jodi's baptism into the Mormon church.

TA was acting as a representative of the Church and as a spiritual advisor. Although Jodi was far from being a minor (she was 28) we all hear stories , for example here in my state of New Jersey there was a female social worker age 33 arrested for raping her client, a 48 year old male drug addict - who actually seduced her : But because she represented the agency and abused her authority over him - he could not give consent in this situation and thus she became a felon.

Travis was also seen as a leader and motivational speaker who had formidable power of persuasion over anyone spiritually or psychologically needy.

Put this together with the audio heard by the jury of Jodi telling TA, "You made me feel like a goddess" and his immediate response of, "I want to zip-tie you to a tree and _____ you up the _____". I am in no way trying to disrespect Travis, but I DO feel there may be members of the jury who feel Arias may have become seriously mentally unstrung due to his morally dubious actions. It is a worry of some import for the prosecution, I would think.

 

[lil_buddy]

I had posted this on another thread but believe it may also be relevant to your point so will post it here:

Just a side not which is not exactly tied in with the idea of premeditation, but with self-defense. One of the most favorable areas to the defense - and thus dangerous to the prosecution - is the testimony that TA had all sorts of anal and oral sex with JA on the day of Jodi's baptism into the Mormon church.

TA was acting as a representative of the Church and as a spiritual advisor. Although Jodi was far from being a minor (she was 28) we all hear stories , for example here in my state of New Jersey there was a female social worker age 33 arrested for raping her client, a 48 year old male drug addict - who actually seduced her : But because she represented the agency and abused her authority over him - he could not give consent in this situation and thus she became a felon.

Travis was also seen as a leader and motivational speaker who had formidable power of persuasion over anyone spiritually or psychologically needy.

Put this together with the audio heard by the jury of Jodi telling TA, "You made me feel like a goddess" and his immediate response of, "I want to zip-tie you to a tree and _____ you up the _____". I am in no way trying to disrespect Travis, but I DO feel there may be members of the jury who feel Arias may have become seriously mentally unstrung due to his morally dubious actions. It is a worry of some import for the prosecution, I would think.

If JA were like a naive 17 yr old, lived a super isolated life with her hardcore Christian family, your theory would have some traction with me. She was a 27 year old woman who had already lived with a string of men.

I believe adults understand that most people do not live up to their very highest ideals 100% of the time.

MOO

PS - I don't buy the baptism story.

 

[Gecko100]

I had posted this on another thread but believe it may also be relevant to your point so will post it here:

Just a side not which is not exactly tied in with the idea of premeditation, but with self-defense. One of the most favorable areas to the defense - and thus dangerous to the prosecution - is the testimony that TA had all sorts of anal and oral sex with JA on the day of Jodi's baptism into the Mormon church.

TA was acting as a representative of the Church and as a spiritual advisor. Although Jodi was far from being a minor (she was 28) we all hear stories , for example here in my state of New Jersey there was a female social worker age 33 arrested for raping her client, a 48 year old male drug addict - who actually seduced her : But because she represented the agency and abused her authority over him - he could not give consent in this situation and thus she became a felon.

Travis was also seen as a leader and motivational speaker who had formidable power of persuasion over anyone spiritually or psychologically needy.

Put this together with the audio heard by the jury of Jodi telling TA, "You made me feel like a goddess" and his immediate response of, "I want to zip-tie you to a tree and _____ you up the _____". I am in no way trying to disrespect Travis, but I DO feel there may be members of the jury who feel Arias may have become seriously mentally unstrung due to his morally dubious actions. It is a worry of some import for the prosecution, I would think.

I absolutely agree. This dichotomous paradigm (/virgin) is seriously absent from any rational debate I have come across in relation to this murder. It's glaringly obvious, and prevents me from totally dismissing JA as 'evil' personified. She had more than a few double messages to deal with.
I don't excuse her and she deserves to be punished.

 

[lil_buddy]

Here's the bottom line for me:

The defense is wrapping up it's case in chief.

It appears that they will not be putting on any more character witnesses.

They have not found a single witness to come on the stand and say anything negative about Travis. (Well, Daniel Freeman said he thought Travis was kind of arrogant for whatever that's worth.) Not a single angry women who felt wronged! Jodi claims Travis cheated on her, but this has not been confirmed. If the defense could prove that Travis was a player, don't you think they would have done that?

There has only been ONE SINGLE witness who has testified, who really knew Jodi before TA and who had positive things to say about her - that was her ex-boyfriend Darryl Brewer. Unfortunately, his testimony was better for the defense since he's the one who gave her the gas cans and proved that Jodi lied about Travis taking her anal virginity.

Don't you think it is weird that not a single member of Jodi's family is on the defense witness list?

The more this case unfolds the picture of Jodi as a straight up evil, predatory, psychopath becomes clearer and clearer.

 

[lil_buddy]

Earlier in the trial, I was thinking Madonna/ complex too.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The state Rests in The State v. Jodi Arias: break in trial until 28 January 2013 #12

But it just doesn't fit with the following facts:
1) Travis' friends said that he was quite smitten with JA at the beginning - saying that he thought she was the 'one'. He must have known from the beginning she was no virgin
2) Emails/texts FROM TA saying he felt used, being taken advantage of
3) Plenty of Mormons have pre-marital sex.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_14492575

Extrapolation
1) She is a scary creep and once he started to see that and pull away - that's when she started to REALLY lose it.

 

[Gecko100]

Here's the bottom line for me:

The defense is wrapping up it's case in chief.

It appears that they will not be putting on any more character witnesses.

They have not found a single witness to come on the stand and say anything negative about Travis. (Well, Daniel Freeman said he thought Travis was kind of arrogant for whatever that's worth.) Not a single angry women who felt wronged! Jodi claims Travis cheated on her, but this has not been confirmed. If the defense could prove that Travis was a player, don't you think they would have done that?

There has only been ONE SINGLE witness who has testified, who really knew Jodi before TA and who had positive things to say about her - that was her ex-boyfriend Darryl Brewer. Unfortunately, his testimony was better for the defense since he's the one who gave her the gas cans and proved that Jodi lied about Travis taking her anal virginity.

Don't you think it is weird that not a single member of Jodi's family is on the defense witness list?

The more this case unfolds the picture of Jodi as a straight up evil, predatory, psychopath becomes clearer and clearer.

I totally get where you are coming from, but contextually all of TA's friends are from the same community, world beliefs, and are homogeneous in many respects. It can be difficult to argue against that, particularly as he was a person of some noted standing in the community. I can imagine that the whole scenario is very confusing to them even now, because it goes against all of their fundamental beliefs about him and his behaviour and their religion.
I'm not trying to be difficult, I am just interested in the psychology behind the psychology, I guess the collective psychology in both the micro and macro senses.
She is still guilty and deserves to be punished.

 

[lil_buddy]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

[SMK]

Earlier in the trial, I was thinking Madonna/ complex too.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The state Rests in The State v. Jodi Arias: break in trial until 28 January 2013 #12

But it just doesn't fit with the following facts:
1) Travis' friends said that he was quite smitten with JA at the beginning - saying that he thought she was the 'one'. He must have known from the beginning she was no virgin
2) Emails/texts FROM TA saying he felt used, being taken advantage of
3) Plenty of Mormons have pre-marital sex.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_14492575

Extrapolation
1) She is a scary creep and once he started to see that and pull away - that's when she started to REALLY lose it.

I think you are right that TA may really have been smitten, and had Jodi been normal, might have eventually married her.

IMO she used the gift of all kinds of outrageous sexual acts as an apology for her lack of self. I don't think it was her fault- I think she must truly have been damaged on some level in her childhood - From what I have dealt with in my past studies and work, I suspect childhood sexual abuse which has been repressed or is not known by anyone, even her.

The whole thing is just incredibly sad on a human (and not purely legal) level: He had so much to him, was loved by so many, and he died a horrific and undeserved death. She has destroyed herself. She is in the end a tragic and lonely figure and it is all just incredibly sad to me.

 

[SMK]

I absolutely agree. This dichotomous paradigm (/virgin) is seriously absent from any rational debate I have come across in relation to this murder. It's glaringly obvious, and prevents me from totally dismissing JA as 'evil' personified. She had more than a few double messages to deal with.
I don't excuse her and she deserves to be punished.

Yes, and I do feel sorrow for JA: See my last post (above) to see my perspective on JA as tragic figure.

 

[SMK]

If JA were like a naive 17 yr old, lived a super isolated life with her hardcore Christian family, your theory would have some traction with me. She was a 27 year old woman who had already lived with a string of men.

I believe adults understand that most people do not live up to their very highest ideals 100% of the time.

MOO

PS - I don't buy the baptism story.

But I think this is the trouble: If she were this demure, 17 yr old Christian girl, she likely would not have gotten into this sexual mess with TA.

As a woman, she simply HAD to be damaged in order to get in this mess with him. I believe I have studied and read and experienced enough as a woman to say this. Jodi at 28 was damaged goods--- probably going back to age 12 or even 6. TRAVIS WAS IN OVER HIS HEAD. She is very ill, but not purely evil. ETA: I would understand if she gets the DP. I can view her as tragic and still understand the state's case.