Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[ShadyLadySleuth]

At the risk of being verbally stoned, I wanted to post this and then duck for cover!

From my research in books, and articles I've read on Psychopaths and the tests used for diagnosis by a qualified mental health practioner, I am not convinced that we can say that JA is a Psychopath. This condition is usually manifested by the mid-teen age years. Yes, JA left home and did not graduate high school. But she got a job and worked. What evidence is there of any behavior of hers between her mid-teens and age 27 when she met TA that could point to psychopathology? Yes, she had a string of boyfriends, but she is single and that's not pathological. Who of her former boyfriends in that period have said she was unethical, a conniver, or played mind games with them? To my knowledge all this "crazy" behavior didn't begin until after she met TA when she was 27. This does not excuse her in any way. I believe she premeditated TA murder and should get life in prison at the minimum. My point is that a person does not suddenly become a Psychopath at 27 years of age. Her life up to that point had been relatively normal.

 

[SMK]

At the risk of being verbally stoned, I wanted to post this and then duck for cover!

From my research in books, and articles I've read on Psychopaths and the tests used for diagnosis by a qualified mental health practioner, I am not convinced that we can say that JA is a Psychopath. This condition is usually manifested by the mid-teen age years. Yes, JA left home and did not graduate high school. But she got a job and worked. What evidence is there of any behavior of hers between her mid-teens and age 27 when she met TA that could point to psychopathology? Yes, she had a string of boyfriends, but she is single and that's not pathological. Who of her former boyfriends in that period have said she was unethical, a conniver, or played mind games with them? To my knowledge all this "crazy" behavior didn't begin until after she met TA when she was 27. This does not excuse her in any way. I believe she premeditated TA murder and should get life in prison at the minimum. My point is that a person does not suddenly become a Psychopath at 27 years of age. Her life up to that point had been relatively normal.

The way I am in agreement with you is that, I tend to approach people or events from a philosophical/ classical purview, and am not truly invested in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), although it is a necessary and useful tool for professional clinicians.

So my response is probably not exactly what you're looking for, but for the sake of giving my input, I will respond from my own particular stance:

I tend to look more at empirical behavior: I view Arias as having a sort of facade (obnoxious and very unsympathetic though it is) and a short synopsis of what I would deem important would be:

• Young female with self-esteem issues who lives a relatively normal life (although lacking in concrete aim or ambition, due likely to poor preparation prior to adulthood) but adopts a somewhat grandiose facade, particularly in the area of sexuality.
• Falls in love with Mormon motivational speaker and becomes obsessed with him not only romantically, but as a figure of strength and success.
• Uses kinky sexuality to win and control him.
• It backfires.
• She goes berserk, killing him horrifically and brutally in revenge, telling herself in the aftermath that at least anyway they are now "married in eternity".
• Calm at last, she presents an odd figure in court.

Nothing more than that. Labels do not do much for me as there is a vast amount of classical literature, philosophy, poetry, and psychology which to me covers the whole range of human existence in a more expansive manner. (of course I am not a clinician, so have the luxury of not needing labels--not trying to say they are not needed in certain circumstances to determine fitness or guilt, etc.)

As a dissenter once said, "DSM will continue its relentless pursuit of making us crazy, when we are only human." ETA: This is not to say that her crime was not heinous (although she may have been planning more of a gunshot /make it appear a home invasion type of thing and then the gun jammed and she went into panic mode with the knife, as there was no turning back) or that she is not appearing kind of arrogant and obnoxious now, nor that she should not receive the death penalty....

 

[MeeBee]

At the risk of being verbally stoned, I wanted to post this and then duck for cover!

From my research in books, and articles I've read on Psychopaths and the tests used for diagnosis by a qualified mental health practioner, I am not convinced that we can say that JA is a Psychopath. This condition is usually manifested by the mid-teen age years. Yes, JA left home and did not graduate high school. But she got a job and worked. What evidence is there of any behavior of hers between her mid-teens and age 27 when she met TA that could point to psychopathology? Yes, she had a string of boyfriends, but she is single and that's not pathological. Who of her former boyfriends in that period have said she was unethical, a conniver, or played mind games with them? To my knowledge all this "crazy" behavior didn't begin until after she met TA when she was 27. This does not excuse her in any way. I believe she premeditated TA murder and should get life in prison at the minimum. My point is that a person does not suddenly become a Psychopath at 27 years of age. Her life up to that point had been relatively normal.

Either she's a psychopath/sociopath, or she has psychopathic tendencies. She also seems to be a narcissist. I don't know what Jodi was like when she was younger so I can't comment on it. There are little things that point me in that direction, that it was manifesting at a young age, like her being rebellious, violent, etc. I don't think her getting a job means she isn't a sociopath. They get jobs, they just have trouble holding them down, like Jodi. She jumped from waitress job to waitress job. I guess that could sound like any other young woman. But you have to look at the bigger picture. She always lived with boyfriends or a friend in Mesa and depended on them for support. Based on their correspondence, she borrowed money from Travis often. She was very promiscuous. No, that doesn't make her a sociopath, but it is some of the indicators. She is also a narcissist, btw.

What makes me think she is a sociopath is what I am seeing from her now. She is empty, vacant. She actually looks as if she is faking human emotion. In videos, whenever she is trying to look tired, or sad, she does this eye-wipe thing that looks completely fake. She can barely pretend to be sad about Travis' death (murder at her hands). I sit her sitting there cold and just can feel it. Most people, when recalling a traumatic moment or the death of a loved on, will get a little emotional. There is no change in her affect. She always sounds upbeat, even when describing her 'mortal terror.' Normal people don't kill others then go on with their lives as if nothing happened. This is the biggest one to me. She kills him, then drives a little, then leaves a message all chipper, like nothing happened, then goes and grinds another guy. They say she was no different than before she killed him. She was talking about Travis like he was still alive. That is what psychopaths do. The kill then move along with their lives all hunky dory. I read it over and over again. Kids who kill their parents then go to school and seem HAPPIER than usual. Very chilling. She will sit there pretending to cry at Travis' pictures, but then take a quick and cold glance at them from behind her hair. Do you see Travis' family doing this? I look at her and I know what I am seeing. A vacant, soulless woman who should not ever be released from prison.

Sociopaths are ticking time bombs. They don't always go on to kill, but they are all capable of it.

 

[MeeBee]

The way I am in agreement with you is that, I tend to approach people or events from a philosophical/ classical purview, and am not truly invested in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), although it is a necessary and useful tool for professional clinicians.

So my response is probably not exactly what you're looking for, but for the sake of giving my input, I will respond from my own particular stance:

I tend to look more at empirical behavior: I view Arias as having a sort of facade (obnoxious and very unsympathetic though it is) and a short synopsis of what I would deem important would be:

• Young female with self-esteem issues who lives a relatively normal life (although lacking in concrete aim or ambition, due likely to poor preparation prior to adulthood) but adopts a somewhat grandiose facade, particularly in the area of sexuality.
• Falls in love with Mormon motivational speaker and becomes obsessed with him not only romantically, but as a figure of strength and success.
• Uses kinky sexuality to win and control him.
• It backfires.
• She goes berserk, killing him horrifically and brutally in revenge, telling herself in the aftermath that at least anyway they are now "married in eternity".
• Calm at last, she presents an odd figure in court.

Nothing more than that. Labels do not do much for me as there is a vast amount of classical literature, philosophy, poetry, and psychology which to me covers the whole range of human existence in a more expansive manner. (of course I am not a clinician, so have the luxury of not needing labels--not trying to say they are not needed in certain circumstances to determine fitness or guilt, etc.)

As a dissenter once said, "DSM will continue its relentless pursuit of making us crazy, when we are only human." ETA: This is not to say that her crime was not heinous (although she may have been planning more of a gunshot /make it appear a home invasion type of thing and then the gun jammed and she went into panic mode with the knife, as there was no turning back) or that she is not appearing kind of arrogant and obnoxious now, nor that she should not receive the death penalty....

Labels are often true. If people cannot see when they are dealing with a sociopath, then they need to. That makes them a victim waiting to happen, thinking that someone couldn't possibly be this. Jodi killed a man then showed no remorse for it. She did not fall in love with him. She became obsessed with him. She does not love.

 

[SMK]

Labels are often true. If people cannot see when they are dealing with a sociopath, then they need to. That makes them a victim waiting to happen, thinking that someone couldn't possibly be this. Jodi killed a man then showed no remorse for it. She did not fall in love with him. She became obsessed with him. She does not love.

Well, I think in her own way she did fall in love. But yes, I hear what you're saying, and it's likely true. But this is in hindsight in any case. But it is true that people knew there was something very off there, Travis included. He more or less told others he could wind up dead.

I am more comfortable with saying someone has psychopathic or narcissistic tendencies, rather than putting a label on them which is static and allows for no dynamic change. A person is a fluid process and not a thing. Tendencies leading to action is dangerous enough. It gets the idea across.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

At the risk of being verbally stoned, I wanted to post this and then duck for cover!

From my research in books, and articles I've read on Psychopaths and the tests used for diagnosis by a qualified mental health practioner, I am not convinced that we can say that JA is a Psychopath. This condition is usually manifested by the mid-teen age years. Yes, JA left home and did not graduate high school. But she got a job and worked. What evidence is there of any behavior of hers between her mid-teens and age 27 when she met TA that could point to psychopathology? Yes, she had a string of boyfriends, but she is single and that's not pathological. Who of her former boyfriends in that period have said she was unethical, a conniver, or played mind games with them? To my knowledge all this "crazy" behavior didn't begin until after she met TA when she was 27. This does not excuse her in any way. I believe she premeditated TA murder and should get life in prison at the minimum. My point is that a person does not suddenly become a Psychopath at 27 years of age. Her life up to that point had been relatively normal.

There wasn't any evidence of a conduct disorder either as far as I know.

 

[Tiger09]

Hummm? Well 12 year old girls can and do have orgasms (especially if they've been 'shown' by offenders or even other children). I tend to believe Travis just threw that comment out there because Jodi WAS sounding like a 12 year old girl (whether she meant to or not).

I've never actually heard phone sex before, but something about that tape seems off kilter to me all around. They BOTH seemed to be over dramatic and maybe were faking it for the excitement of the other. As for saying, "that's hot," or whatever was taken to mean Travis approved of 12 year old girls having orgasm, I heard it more like a rendition of Beevis and Butthead where young men are "supposed" to say stupid things whenever any slight innuendo is made.

Without saying Travis was without his faults, and having Mormon friends who truly have been brought up under the watchful eyes of parents AND church, I see much of the sexual banter here as though Travis is the little boy who just discovered his penis. Having discovered the joy of sex, it would not be something he could disclose to anyone without fear of bring down the wrath and disappointment of his community.

Jodi really had found the ultimate weapon of power to use against him. She certainly wouldn't want to use it because THAT WOULD mean the end of everything for her, but I'm sure the thought that she COULD tell made Travis very AFRAID. Something starts when she asks her friend about the Law of Chastity and what should she do. I think this was a warning to Travis to get rid of his new girlfriend or else. However, Jodi also learned that there was a way to redemption through repentance here, and it would mean getting rid of HER along with the sex. Their quarreling escalates after this until Jodi is sent packing back to California.

Now Jodi obviously sees Mimi as her greatest rival. Travis could start over fresh, so she sets up the phone sex call. Travis didn't know he was being RECORDED. The conversation was scheduled (at least I thought I heard something along that line at the start of the call) AND Jodi was trying to relive past exploits as if she wanted to prove something to someone else. When Travis discovered that she had this tape, it was the last straw for him and he let her know in that May text. The tape IS the great betrayal he is talking about, and he knows just what kind of sociopath he is dealing with now that everything is coming out into the open. He must have thought it would be safe to call her on this behavior since she was 1,000 + miles away.

I heard the sex tape. The "that's hot" sounded about as turned on as when Paris Hilton says it -all for show and for teasing. Even the 12 year old girl was like "dude you sound like this haha" not sexual at all IMO. He sounded like he was laughing at her while she played desperate sex kitten to get him back. She probably cried because she realized how pathetic she sounded. If I took that call outside of the situation, that was what my first opinion would be, so I'm sticking with that.

 

[SMK]

I heard the sex tape. The "that's hot" sounded about as turned on as when Paris Hilton says it -all for show and for teasing. Even the 12 year old girl was like "dude you sound like this haha" not sexual at all IMO. He sounded like he was laughing at her while she played desperate sex kitten to get him back. She probably cried because she realized how pathetic she sounded. If I took that call outside of the situation, that was what my first opinion would be, so I'm sticking with that.

Very true: I agree he sounds kind of lukewarm about it all.

That said, it does not preclude him being frightened that it could be played for church elders by a vicious Jodi and get his whole Motivational career and Mormonism in hot water. He valued his reputation, and was known for it.

 

[SMK]

If we do want to go with labels, has there been any thought about undiagnosed (especially in females) Asperger Syndrome (as one axis)? I am thinking of her stopping school, her troubles working, her strange verbiage and grandiose way of acting, her flat affect.....Anyone?

 

[MeeBee]

If we do want to go with labels, has there been any thought about undiagnosed (especially in females) Asperger Syndrome (as one axis)? I am thinking of her stopping school, her troubles working, her strange verbiage and grandiose way of acting, her flat affect.....Anyone?

The only thing is Samuels himself said that her tests showed she may have a personality disorder (narcissistic, histrionic, borderline, anitsocial) but, of course, did not explore it because it would be bad for the defense. The test scores showed abnormally high levels of personality disorder indicators. My guess? Samuels knows she has a personality disorder and knows this makes her a dangerous woman, but is hiding it because he is being paid to win the case and cater his findings around a specific diagnosis (PTSD). I'm thinking Demarte will have better insight into who/what Jodi really is.

 

[Tiger09]

If we do want to go with labels, has there been any thought about undiagnosed (especially in females) Asperger Syndrome (as one axis)? I am thinking of her stopping school, her troubles working, her strange verbiage and grandiose way of acting, her flat affect.....Anyone?

Oh I don't doubt it, but I think by that time he was just done. She couldn't let go, she knew it; hi premeditation. Hence the reason for the recording. His slipping away got the ball rolling so to speak. That screams attachment disorder and control issues IMO and self esteem. Why is she defining herself in her relationships?

 

[SMK]

Oh I don't doubt it, but I think by that time he was just done. She couldn't let go, she knew it; hi premeditation. Hence the reason for the recording. His slipping away got the ball rolling so to speak. That screams attachment disorder and control issues IMO and self esteem. Why is she defining herself in her relationships?

Thanks for this. You answered on my wrong post, though - but i get what you're responding to. :floorlaugh:

this one:

Very true: I agree he sounds kind of lukewarm about it all.

That said, it does not preclude him being frightened that it could be played for church elders by a vicious Jodi and get his whole Motivational career and Mormonism in hot water. He valued his reputation, and was known for it.

 

[shelley921]

I heard the sex tape. The "that's hot" sounded about as turned on as when Paris Hilton says it -all for show and for teasing. Even the 12 year old girl was like "dude you sound like this haha" not sexual at all IMO. He sounded like he was laughing at her while she played desperate sex kitten to get him back. She probably cried because she realized how pathetic she sounded. If I took that call outside of the situation, that was what my first opinion would be, so I'm sticking with that.

yes - yes-Indeed! Yes! On that phone sex call Travis sounded to me like he was a high school boy trying to be hip and cool. He was naive and it didn't seem to me like he was that excited. A lame sex tape in my opinion..like you say NOT sexual at all. and you nailed it - Jodi was the desperate sex kitten trying like mad to get him ramped up. But he wasn't goin' for it. pathetic. Too damn bad a serial killer in California didn't off Jodi at the one of the truck stops she was at - sleeping in her car...on the way to Mesa.

 

[Tiger09]

Thanks for this. You answered on my wrong post, though - but i get what you're responding to. :floorlaugh:

this one:

Sorry. I was in a fog lol.

 

[Tiger09]

yes - yes-Indeed! Yes! On that phone sex call Travis sounded to me like he was a high school boy trying to be hip and cool. He was naive and it didn't seem to me like he was that excited. A lame sex tape in my opinion..like you say NOT sexual at all. and you nailed it - Jodi was the desperate sex kitten trying like mad to get him ramped up. But he wasn't goin' for it. pathetic. Too damn bad a serial killer in California didn't off Jodi at the one of the truck stops she was at - sleeping in her car...on the way to Mesa.

I'm on tapatalk and that makes it um foggy so forgive my double posts, but if we were in the 60's Jodi would be a member of the Manson family IMO. I read Helter Skelter and she reminds me of Sadie Mae. Plus all the religious speak she sprinkles in every now and again, it just seems like she was born in the wrong era for her and Travis. She would have been a deadly cult member since she has no identity and might not want one. She may thrive in prison since they probably tell you what to do according to Prison Break and college classes.

 

[lil_buddy]

She sounds like a sweetheart compared to Jodi, she only stabbed him in the back once, didn't shoot him and eventually (maybe because he didn't die soon enough) called her daughter who called emergency. Yup a veritable Girl Scout.

I totally agree. Nancy Bautista is not an inhuman monster. She is nuts as h*ll, though.

I posted that before Jodi took the stand, before I saw the fearless psychopath.

 

[SMK]

Sorry. I was in a fog lol.

no, it was funny!:great:

 

[SMK]

I'm on tapatalk and that makes it um foggy so forgive my double posts, but if we were in the 60's Jodi would be a member of the Manson family IMO. I read Helter Skelter and she reminds me of Sadie Mae. Plus all the religious speak she sprinkles in every now and again, it just seems like she was born in the wrong era for her and Travis. She would have been a deadly cult member since she has no identity and might not want one. She may thrive in prison since they probably tell you what to do according to Prison Break and college classes.

I posted this on another thread but am reposting here because it is relevant to your post:


Another thought about Jodi's mystical leanings: When I learned she read Aleister Crowley, and had posted his famous quote, "Do what Thou will, is the Whole of the Law" - and according to Crowley's occult magick, all forms of sexual practices, blood drinking, murder are allowed - I was reminded of her telling Flores in the interrogation: "I believe in the ten commandments: Thou shalt not kill" and "If I had done this heinous act, I'd be shaking in my boots at God's judgement".

She could EASILY says these things ("they will know I am a good Mormon girl; I was baptized, I fear God, I could not have done this") while inwardly laughing because she knew she was a Crowley girl and could do as she willed.

 

[lil_buddy]

I posted this on another thread but am reposting here because it is relevant to your post:


Another thought about Jodi's mystical leanings: When I learned she read Aleister Crowley, and had posted his famous quote, "Do what Thou will, is the Whole of the Law" - and according to Crowley's occult magick, all forms of sexual practices, blood drinking, murder are allowed - I was reminded of her telling Flores in the interrogation: "I believe in the ten commandments: Thou shalt not kill" and "If I had done this heinous act, I'd be shaking in my boots at God's judgement".

She could EASILY says these things ("they will know I am a good Mormon girl; I was baptized, I fear God, I could not have done this") while inwardly laughing because she knew she was a Crowley girl and could do as she willed.

I would love to see a credible source confirming that Crowley condoned murder.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I doubt she took Crowley's beliefs into her own makeup any more than she took on Mormonism, if she read him she was just aping Bobby, and disregarded it as soon as she was out of that relationship and moved onto her next host.