Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

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  • #621
I still have to question how this would all be different were the gender roles reversed. Would we be saying the female victim was led astray by the tempestuous sexually experienced male? Self defense would definitely be off the table, no abuse allegations would exist, nor would pedophilia. It would be about a gruesome and tragic murder and a killer that is disturbed and rightfully needs to pay. I'm a woman and I believe in equal rights and that includes paying equally for your crimes. She should IMO get treated like a male would in this situation.
 
  • #622
Could she possibly have schizoid affective disorder also? Which would be her magical thinking and strange behavior when being arrested..talking to herself out loud etc?
 
  • #623
An article about sociopaths. A few comments remind you of anyone?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2298558/Why-didnt-I-realise-perfect-man-sociopath-Charming-Handsome-So-attentive-But-Mel-married-sinister-truth-emerged-.html

- s a typical sociopath, Cameron could feel no real emotion. With no conscience or empathy, sociopaths don’t respond as others do. In fact, Dr Robert Hare, the world’s leading expert on sociopath behaviour, says the only emotion they feel is annoyance they have been found ou
-I’ve since learned that quoting films or lyrics is typical sociopathic behaviour.

Unable to understand emotion, they watch it carefully on films, then mimic the words and actions. In her book, The Sociopath Next Door, Dr Martha Stout says a main technique of sociopaths is intense charm — and Cameron had bags of it

THE 10 DANGER SIGNS

Sociopath expert Dr Robert Hare has devised the following checklist to help people recognise sociopathic traits.
1. SUPERFICIAL charm. Smooth, engaging and charming, a sociopath will never become tongue-tied or embarrassed.
2. OVER-INFLATED sense of self-worth. Sociopaths believe they are superior human beings.
3. PRONE to boredom. They feel the need to be stimulated constantly.
4. PATHOLOGICAL liars. Sociopaths will be deceptive and dishonest.
5. MANIPULATIVE. They will say and do anything to deceive and cheat others.
6. LACK of remorse. No sense of the suffering of their victims.
7. LIMITED range of feelings. Don’t expect them to express anything other than happiness or sadness.
8. CALLOUS. Cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate and tactless are apt words to describe them.
9. THEY live a parasitic lifestyle. Sociopaths are often financially dependent on others.
10. THEY can’t control their behaviour. When challenged, sociopaths will appear irritable, annoyed and impatient.

Travis RIP could have written this!
 
  • #624
I think there may be some confusion out there that psychopathy is synonymous with ASPD when, in my opinion, they're closely related but wholly separate disorders. Dr. Robert Hare estimates up to 80% of criminals could be dx'd with ASPD but of those only 20% are also psychopathic. Those 20% though are responsible for more than 50% of crime, usually the most serious, which goes a long way in quantifying just how dangerous they have the potential to be.

For the next two months only a conduct disorder dx prior to the age of 15 is necessary diagnostic criteria for ASPD only - this fact will be rendered moot as it is being dropped with the new version of the DSM-V. A therapeutic mental health practitioner could never, and would never, currently diagnose someone as a psychopath. By DSM definition and diagnostics, psychopathy isn't a mental health disorder (the DSM-V will combine antisocial with psychopathic though). It is a term and diagnosis widely accepted and recognized in forensic psychology and is often used in conjunction with evaluations required by the criminal justice system. Further, the only tests that can actually establish psychopathy itself are forensic - the PCL-R and the PPI-R - though standard assessments can certainly hint to the disorder by way of axis II-Cluster B primarily, such as the MMPI and MCMI. ASPD's (and please realize this is very generalized, not all ASPDs meet the following description) have a propensity for criminality, have problems with relationships, and often have unstable employment histories. While psychopaths can maintain long-term relationships, be in high-level positions in their careers, and go their entire lives without ever committing a crime. I consider ASPD to be explosive and impulsive while psychopaths tend to be more manipulatively abusive for their personal gain. ASPD=reactive; psychopathy=cunning.

There is known cure for either ASPD or psychopathy. However, while extremely resistant to treatment those with ASPD can learn to at least modify their behavior with intense therapy whereas, imo, there is absolutely no recourse whatsoever for psychopathy. I also see very different sides to psychopathy which I've described elsewhere as 'good' and 'bad'. They're each potentially dangerous and extremely destructive in their own ways. Many psychopaths weigh in on the scale somewhere in the middle. The 'good' are the ones you just can't spot until your bank account's been drained, you've been left homeless, and your pets were dropped off at the humane society by the psychopath. The 'good' are often charming, well liked, and popular. Then there's another type that, upon first meeting, the hair on the back of your neck rises - you innately sense something is wrong. (Those sensitive to psychopaths may be better equipped to spot both 'types' and the many in between.) The latter are, in my estimation, often the most depraved and cruel. Almost pure sadism. They're almost palpably inhuman and have great difficulty blending into society.

I believe a lot of parents discount clearly psychopathic tendencies until and unless those traits surpass criminal and/or violent boundaries. Some parents justify manipulative, controlling or abusive behaviors in their own kids. First, a psychopath's family is also generally their first victim pool. Secondly, I think its human nature to want to believe in what I call Spoiled Brat Syndrome (aka problem child) before believing in anything quite so dark, depraved, and resistant to treatment as psychopathy. It really is very easy when you love a psychopath to come with any viable alternative as an explanation for their behavior. What parent would want to be confronted with their child essentially being 'soulless'?

In terms of adolescent psychopathy I think many assume one is out setting fires and torturing all the neighbor's cats...and they certainly can be...but generally I think they're more along the lines of Veruca Salt from Willy Wonka. ;) They're still in the process of honing their manipulative prowess, which is the primary trait and resource of psychopaths - they depend on it for survival alone, so they're more apt to be pushing boundaries constantly, be extremely selfish, thoughtless, impulsive, shallow, etc. The problem of course is that a lot of teens are like that too which feeds into a pattern of easily discounting such behaviors for parents of psychopaths. Until their child does something so egregious that it can't be whisked under a carpet...and sometimes, even then, the parent will remain firmly wrapped in denial. Psychopathic children and adolescents, like their adult counterparts, refuse to ever accept responsibility for their behaviors, are averse to reward vs. punishment many parents utilize for behavior modification, are prone to victim-mentalities in which part of their manipulation becomes painting their parents as abusive or controlling, or using other emotional manipulators such as threatening suicide - and parents often relent in their attempts to enforce restrictions and hold their psychopathic children and adolescents responsible for their behaviors. This, of course, only serves to teach a psychopathic youth how best to go about getting what they want.

All MOO
 
  • #625
According to Jodi, Travis said, going to kill you *****. Ironic, state of Arizona might say that at sentencing.
 
  • #626
Word to the wise. Don't allow any of your adult children to be home alone when a repair man shows up. I have heard horror stories about carpet cleaners, movers, etc..

I recall pulling my adult DD back from an elevator. She was about to step in when I noticed three young gangsta types inside. She used to be oblivious to this stuff till she got mugged.

Yes - we all need to heed this advice. Wasn't there a female doctor in Philadelphia who was murdered by a pest control guy in her basement a few months back ?
 
  • #627
Looks like we are back to Damned 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 and God's Police again!
It is a topic that certainly isn't going to go away, and it will create the same divisiveness that it suggests.
Priests/nuns have held very similar authoritative positions in the Catholic church.
I can certainly testify to the cruelty of nuns, they were extremely powerful people to me, but they abused their powerful positions to control and manipulate my behaviour through physical abuse.

People in positions of trust power and authority, have a duty to behave ethically towards others, especially children and the vulnerable.

In the long run I guess it doesn't matter what was wrong with her, she will still be rightfully penalised. We could debate her diagnosis for years.
What I care about is how these two people got into such a position in the first place. Hopefully there will be clues to help us understand it from an intra-psychic position as well as a meta analysis.
For me, their unresolved childhood issues were the real Law of Attraction! :truce:


This is what i come back to over and over again - their childhoods were chaotic and set them up for being attracted to one another. It's not the whole answer but plays a huge part. [ ?? ]
 
  • #628
Looks like we are back to Damned 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 and God's Police again!
It is a topic that certainly isn't going to go away, and it will create the same divisiveness that it suggests.
Priests/nuns have held very similar authoritative positions in the Catholic church.
I can certainly testify to the cruelty of nuns, they were extremely powerful people to me, but they abused their powerful positions to control and manipulate my behaviour through physical abuse.

People in positions of trust power and authority, have a duty to behave ethically towards others, especially children and the vulnerable.

In the long run I guess it doesn't matter what was wrong with her, she will still be rightfully penalised. We could debate her diagnosis for years.
What I care about is how these two people got into such a position in the first place. Hopefully there will be clues to help us understand it from an intra-psychic position as well as a meta analysis.
For me, their unresolved childhood issues were the real Law of Attraction! :truce:
I don't think there's any reason for you to duck for cover :crazy: All you say makes perfect sense.

Yes, if poor Travis had acted more professionally - both as a devout Mormon and a motivational speaker and leader - he could have side-stepped the whole Jodi nightmare. In his defense, he was still very young : Perhaps success had come too early for him? :waitasec:

I too am interested in the human dynamics of how this tragedy could occur, and how these 2 people were drawn together. Right, the Law of Attraction is a 2-edged sword, for sure!
 
  • #629
Somewhat off topic but I had an AT&T guy outside my house fixing my phone line the other day who kept ringing my doorbell to give me an update on his progress. His eyes were deep brown and fluid and his gaze so sincere. He really wanted to help me.

During this my husband drove up the driveway. When my husband came into the house, he said that the guy sure is talkative.

The guy went back to the office to do something to the computer and then back to our house again. In the end our caller id was not working but he said it should be because he tested his from the outside line and it worked on his so the problem must be with our phone. Could he please come into our house to take a look at our phones? It was almost six o'clock by then and I'd had it with these freakin' phones as the line had been out for two days by then, was fixed but the caller id wasn't working. Ugh!

I politely said thanks but no thanks because, all of a sudden, I had this feeling that this guy is too helpful, too eager to help us. He looked disappointed that he wasn't allowed to complete the job inside the house.

Later on in the evening, I remembered the goodlooking gypsies (they call themselves and I saw their mugshots) who ripped off my senior parents for fixing their driveway. Together my brother and I found out information, went to the police and they had a whole rap sheet on this group of con artists (the one who charmed my mom used his real name and had her write out her own receipt!). My parents got their money back. Luckily my dad had noticed that the screws surrounding his door knob had been loosened prior to the discovery of the scam - they always lock their storm door anyway.

I swear my intuition kicked in about the telephone guy when I didn't want him looking around inside my house. I could be wrong of course but it's better to error on the side of caution.

That's how my mind works when looking into cases as to what we can learn from them based on the behavior of all the people involved.

By the way, our caller id miraculously worked the next day - must have been a computer glitch that was fixed in the office!
Very true: Never ignore your instincts, and glad you did not. And yes indeed: Always better to err on the side of caution.....Look how nice and friendly that Mormon handyman was who came back and kidnapped Elizabeth Smart......
 
  • #630
Tell your Sister thanks and I love the ending with the Judge looking out blankly and tapping! The best!

:floorlaugh:

The faces that Judge makes are priceless. Sometimes she reminds me of a mother who has spent the last 24 hours holed up in a house with ten kids and no electricity.

:floorlaugh:

That was a great youtube.
 
  • #631
Somewhat off topic but I had an AT&T guy outside my house fixing my phone line the other day who kept ringing my doorbell to give me an update on his progress. His eyes were deep brown and fluid and his gaze so sincere. He really wanted to help me.

During this my husband drove up the driveway. When my husband came into the house, he said that the guy sure is talkative.

The guy went back to the office to do something to the computer and then back to our house again. In the end our caller id was not working but he said it should be because he tested his from the outside line and it worked on his so the problem must be with our phone. Could he please come into our house to take a look at our phones? It was almost six o'clock by then and I'd had it with these freakin' phones as the line had been out for two days by then, was fixed but the caller id wasn't working. Ugh!

I politely said thanks but no thanks because, all of a sudden, I had this feeling that this guy is too helpful, too eager to help us. He looked disappointed that he wasn't allowed to complete the job inside the house.

Later on in the evening, I remembered the goodlooking gypsies (they call themselves and I saw their mugshots) who ripped off my senior parents for fixing their driveway. Together my brother and I found out information, went to the police and they had a whole rap sheet on this group of con artists (the one who charmed my mom used his real name and had her write out her own receipt!). My parents got their money back. Luckily my dad had noticed that the screws surrounding his door knob had been loosened prior to the discovery of the scam - they always lock their storm door anyway.

I swear my intuition kicked in about the telephone guy when I didn't want him looking around inside my house. I could be wrong of course but it's better to error on the side of caution.

That's how my mind works when looking into cases as to what we can learn from them based on the behavior of all the people involved.

By the way, our caller id miraculously worked the next day - must have been a computer glitch that was fixed in the office!

Good story and yes always trust your intuition.

2 attractive, well groomed young women came to our home one evening a little over a year ago and they said they were from 'Team Extreme' and were collecting $$ for buying children's books for the local Children's hospital!
These girls said they were our new neighbors & that they had just moved into a house that was just finished being built down our street. They said they were in college. One girl did all the talking and seemed smooth and creepy.
My husband asked them in. I had an immediate bad feeling about these girls. You don't move into a new house and then
go asking your neighbors for donations. The smooth talking one was pushy - she advanced from the foyer into the living room and said
"oh i want to see your view". It was very dark out so the view was not available. I had the feeling she was casing the joint.
The talky girl said the minimum donation was $52 and make the check out to
"Team Extreme". So my husband got his checkbook and wrote the check. Then the talky girl asked for a 2nd check for the same amount!
So my husband gave them a second check. After they left I felt relieved. 2 days later I got an email from
our community council president saying that Team Extreme was a scam and if you had been visited by
young persons collecting $$ to let her know. I called
the Children's hospital and learned that no they do not solicit funds door to door and that we had indeed been scammed. My husband called the bank and put stop payments on the checks. I emailed or called
all our neighbors and learned that 3 of our closest neighbors
also got scammed.
I thought back to the smooth talking chatty girl and felt disgust that such a young and attractive person was
going around lying & scamming people. My husband and I talked about this and he said he would never have invited them in
if they had not said they were our new neighbors! I said let's make a rule that we never let strangers in and we never give money at the door.
 
  • #632
Good story and yes always trust your intuition.

2 attractive, well groomed young women came to our home one evening a little over a year ago and they said they were from 'Team Extreme' and were collecting $$ for buying children's books for the local Children's hospital!
These girls said they were our new neighbors & that they had just moved into a house that was just finished being built down our street. They said they were in college. One girl did all the talking and seemed smooth and creepy.
My husband asked them in. I had an immediate bad feeling about these girls. You don't move into a new house and then
go asking your neighbors for donations. The smooth talking one was pushy - she advanced from the foyer into the living room and said
"oh i want to see your view". It was very dark out so the view was not available. I had the feeling she was casing the joint.
The talky girl said the minimum donation was $52 and make the check out to
"Team Extreme". So my husband got his checkbook and wrote the check. Then the talky girl asked for a 2nd check for the same amount!
So my husband gave them a second check. After they left I felt relieved. 2 days later I got an email from
our community council president saying that Team Extreme was a scam and if you had been visited by
young persons collecting $$ to let her know. I called
the Children's hospital and learned that no they do not solicit funds door to door and that we had indeed been scammed. My husband called the bank and put stop payments on the checks. I emailed or called
all our neighbors and learned that 3 of our closest neighbors
also got scammed.
I thought back to the smooth talking chatty girl and felt disgust that such a young and attractive person was
going around lying & scamming people. My husband and I talked about this and he said he would never have invited them in
if they had not said they were our new neighbors! I said let's make a rule that we never let strangers in and we never give money at the door.
ugh, you and your husband were lucky. While I was reading your story, I was reminded of those 2 high school boys who knocked on a Professor's door, to speak to him and his wife about "a project they were doing for their high school debate team". They wound up knifing the professor and his wife to death and robbing them. Ugh. If someone has a legitimate reason to be seeking donations, they can do it by mail or email or by setting up a legitimate booth somewhere.
 
  • #633
ugh, you and your husband were lucky. While I was reading your story, I was reminded of those 2 high school boys who knocked on a Professor's door, to speak to him and his wife about "a project they were doing for their high school debate team". They wound up knifing the professor and his wife to death and robbing them. Ugh. If someone has a legitimate reason to be seeking donations, they can do it by mail or email or by setting up a legitimate booth somewhere.

yes right--we were lucky and we're wiser now. we have a new rule which is we don't buy, donate or do business over the phone or at the door. Yes I recall seeing that horrible story about the college boys killing the professor & his wife. dreadful.
 
  • #634
Just in a lull here so decided to wonder aloud:

When Travis told his church leader friend that if he didn't show up to the weekly Sunday dinner it would mean he had been killed, I wonder if he could have actually meant this.

If so, why not notify police about her, get a restraining order against JA - above all, why let her in on June 4?

Do you suppose that even if he subconsciously sensed Jodi was murderous, consciously he did not think this, and was only joking?:waitasec:

I would assume so; hence, the lack of pre-emptive protective action on his part. If he really believed she was capable of killing , he owed it to Lisa and Mimi as well to file a police report, as they too might have been her victims.
I think he really did NOT think JA was capable of murder.
 
  • #635
I think there may be some confusion out there that psychopathy is synonymous with ASPD when, in my opinion, they're closely related but wholly separate disorders. Dr. Robert Hare estimates up to 80% of criminals could be dx'd with ASPD but of those only 20% are also psychopathic. Those 20% though are responsible for more than 50% of crime, usually the most serious, which goes a long way in quantifying just how dangerous they have the potential to be.

All MOO

(Snipped for the sake of space!)

Thanks for this very clear differentiation, BritsKate.

I had felt for some time that JA was just a garden-variety sociopath/Narcissist/BPD who reached such a level of intense fear at the idea that she was going to lose her "golden ticket" (TA, and everything he stood for) that she snapped. I wonder now, though, if she's fit the definition of psychopath all along. They're not all torturing kittens and stealing church funds as children, I guess. She was "passing" maybe? Until this big blow?
 
  • #636
Hello all,

I've been reading this thread and others for weeks now, but reading some of the excellent analysis on here finally made me register so I can join the discussion. So... hello!

Here's what I've been thinking about, and I'm sorry if you've already covered this: during the initial interrogations with Det. Flores JA's body language is WEIRD. I know we've all seen the tapes of her doing headstands and flinging her hair around, but I'm talking about her draping herself over the table between them, stretching her arms out to Flores, opening her palms on the tabletop, etc. Her posture and behavior are extremely, extremely relaxed for someone in her situation. This says to me that she was enjoying those exchanges and had no fear at all. Her body language seems... expansive.

Something else I noticed about their exchanges: she has a lot of questions for Det. Flores, or statements that could be taken as questions. I'm totally paraphrasing here, but she says things like, "How could that be?" "That doesn't make sense." "Why would I hurt him." "There's no reason." (Gahh! she uses that last phrase over and over!) I couldn't figure out why she was doing it, and then it hit me -- she was trying to get Det. Flores to supply reasonable theories for everything. I think she was trying to charm and use him. And, please someone, correct me if I'm wrong, but it was Flores who first asked her something like, "Was someone else there?" I know this might be a standard interview tactic, but I think that's where the Ninja story began...

Just MOO
 
  • #637
Hello all,

I've been reading this thread and others for weeks now, but reading some of the excellent analysis on here finally made me register so I can join the discussion. So... hello!

Here's what I've been thinking about, and I'm sorry if you've already covered this: during the initial interrogations with Det. Flores JA's body language is WEIRD. I know we've all seen the tapes of her doing headstands and flinging her hair around, but I'm talking about her draping herself over the table between them, stretching her arms out to Flores, opening her palms on the tabletop, etc. Her posture and behavior are extremely, extremely relaxed for someone in her situation. This says to me that she was enjoying those exchanges and had no fear at all. Her body language seems... expansive.

Something else I noticed about their exchanges: she has a lot of questions for Det. Flores, or statements that could be taken as questions. I'm totally paraphrasing here, but she says things like, "How could that be?" "That doesn't make sense." "Why would I hurt him." "There's no reason." (Gahh! she uses that last phrase over and over!) I couldn't figure out why she was doing it, and then it hit me -- she was trying to get Det. Flores to supply reasonable theories for everything. I think she was trying to charm and use him. And, please someone, correct me if I'm wrong, but it was Flores who first asked her something like, "Was someone else there?" I know this might be a standard interview tactic, but I think that's where the Ninja story began...

Just MOO

Excellent post and very good observations. Yes, she was/is odd with her body language.

Just an aside, with the headstand thing, as she had just asked if she could use her makeup before booking, and the answer was no, I always thought she did that headstand as a way to get blood to her face to look better. ;)

Yes, she acted like a little girl with Flores and not a suspect. No doubt had something up her sleeve, and it may be that the wheels were spinning, hurriedly concocting an intruder theory as she took pieces of ideas from the patient Flores.
 
  • #638
"As far as we know". I heard the same thing concerning felon anthony. Dollars to donuts, she was a problem child with a very bad temper.

Too true. I never believed that and find it convenient that with so many clearly outstanding characteristics of various personality disorders none of the defense experts in either case could find any significant evidence of them. I know that if I were a juror, I would find that patently insulting to my intelligence. :banghead:
 
  • #639
Excellent post and very good observations. Yes, she was/is odd with her body language.

Just an aside, with the headstand thing, as she had just asked if she could use her makeup before booking, and the answer was no, I always thought she did that headstand as a way to get blood to her face to look better. ;)

Yes, she acted like a little girl with Flores and not a suspect. No doubt had something up her sleeve, and it may be that the wheels were spinning, hurriedly concocting an intruder theory as she took pieces of ideas from the patient Flores.

SMK, I think the little girl thing is her go-to default when she seeks to victimize herself. She uses that as a major manipulation tactic, but she doesn't want others to view her as powerless, which is a major problem for her. You can see the conflict in her duels with Juan Martinez. Her natural instinct seems to be to go for "poor little innocent Jodi, brutally sexually abused, simply a seeker of knowledge, a genuine widdle woman-child," but she cannot help herself when dealing with someone who presents that behavior to her in clear, unadulterated terms. Then, we see snarky, confrontational, thoroughly annoyed Jodi, who dislikes any hint of being less than perfect.

She did the same thing with the question from the jury regarding whether or not she had sought treatment for the "memory problem" she laid out in such great detail (in her victimization strategy) to Martinez. Now, that was obviously a perfectly legitimate question, but note that she answered it by visibly bristling. She could not restrain herself even though she knew it was a juror's question, and thus obviously required restraint. Therein was a perfect example of her contradictory behavior, which is entirely consistent with an NPD (one or more of various clusters associated) -- she is simply unable to recognize her own self-destructive behavior in her attempts to manipulate others' perception of her. :cow:
 
  • #640
Just an aside, with the headstand thing, as she had just asked if she could use her makeup before booking, and the answer was no, I always thought she did that headstand as a way to get blood to her face to look better. ;)

Exactly!
 
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