Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[SMK]

SMK, I think the little girl thing is her go-to default when she seeks to victimize herself. She uses that as a major manipulation tactic, but she doesn't want others to view her as powerless, which is a major problem for her. You can see the conflict in her duels with Juan Martinez. Her natural instinct seems to be to go for "poor little innocent Jodi, brutally sexually abused, simply a seeker of knowledge, a genuine widdle woman-child," but she cannot help herself when dealing with someone who presents that behavior to her in clear, unadulterated terms. Then, we see snarky, confrontational, thoroughly annoyed Jodi, who dislikes any hint of being less than perfect.

She did the same thing with the question from the jury regarding whether or not she had sought treatment for the "memory problem" she laid out in such great detail (in her victimization strategy) to Martinez. Now, that was obviously a perfectly legitimate question, but note that she answered it by visibly bristling. She could not restrain herself even though she knew it was a juror's question, and thus obviously required restraint. Therein was a perfect example of her contradictory behavior, which is entirely consistent with an NPD (one or more of various clusters associated) -- she is simply unable to recognize her own self-destructive behavior in her attempts to manipulate others' perception of her. :cow:

Astute observation and well said.

 

[Equinoxical]

Therein was a perfect example of her contradictory behavior, which is entirely consistent with an NPD (one or more of various clusters associated) -- she is simply unable to recognize her own self-destructive behavior in her attempts to manipulate others' perception of her. :cow:

You've just helped me clear up a mystery involving an NPD in my life -- in some ways he's been easy to deal with because he's not savvy enough to know (or as you put it, Sleuth5, "unable to recognize") how he comes across. I've always marveled at this: how someone who seems so devious and smart in some ways can be so clueless as far as their own behavior is concerned. I was just in court with him and was amazed by his inappropriate behavior. But I guess that's the problem (the silver lining?) with NPDs -- they don't think they're inappropriate at all, and put their inappropriateness out there for the world to see.

(Wow! Once I start posting there's apparently no stopping me!):seeya:

 

[Tiger09]

Just in a lull here so decided to wonder aloud:

When Travis told his church leader friend that if he didn't show up to the weekly Sunday dinner it would mean he had been killed, I wonder if he could have actually meant this.

If so, why not notify police about her, get a restraining order against JA - above all, why let her in on June 4?

Do you suppose that even if he subconsciously sensed Jodi was murderous, consciously he did not think this, and was only joking?:waitasec:

I would assume so; hence, the lack of pre-emptive protective action on his part. If he really believed she was capable of killing , he owed it to Lisa and Mimi as well to file a police report, as they too might have been her victims.
I think he really did NOT think JA was capable of murder.

I don't think anyone actually for real thinks that they will get murdered by someone they had an intimate relationship with that moved out of state. Especially if you happen to be a male who does MMA/ wrestling and she's a batty chick who's about- do we really know her actual height/ weight? I'm guessing 5"6 and 130 lbs but she looks 5"9 to me. I'm 5"7 and 117 and she looks taller and sturdier than me. But I think he figured that she was in Cali so he was ok and that really she wouldn't go all "fatal attraction". No one thinks that will happen to them realistically, we do on this site because we analyze stuff but average Joe, no they turn the channel or don't watch the news because they don't want to hear of any negativity- shut it out. If he thought she would hurt him, he probably was like "no Travis that's crazy she's in Cali". And shook it off. Normal reaction. Didn't report her because he felt guilty about the premarital sex. Conflict about the rules- possible feeling that it was karma and you reap what you sow and he did that to her so why bring the cops into it and hurt Jodi even more? Sadly, these human emotions- you can see the last minute realization of him being wrong in that last picture are what could have cost him his life. What he said to his friend was a joke. I say that to my boyfriend and my co workers and friends heck even my therapist when I go into unpleasant situations or even traffic. It's morbid, but it gets a laugh. I'm weird. Just my read on it.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Good afternoon ~ haven't caught up reading but can't believe that the prosecution is still addressing the test scoring business. We get it so move on!

 

[SMK]

You've just helped me clear up a mystery involving an NPD in my life -- in some ways he's been easy to deal with because he's not savvy enough to know (or as you put it, Sleuth5, "unable to recognize") how he comes across. I've always marveled at this: how someone who seems so devious and smart in some ways can be so clueless as far as their own behavior is concerned. I was just in court with him and was amazed by his inappropriate behavior. But I guess that's the problem (the silver lining?) with NPDs -- they don't think they're inappropriate at all, and put their inappropriateness out there for the world to see.

(Wow! Once I start posting there's apparently no stopping me!):seeya:

Glad you are
Yes, so true- I have had the misfortune to have an N sister and she has a near-genius IQ - yet can be totally oblivious to her own self-destructive methods of operation. She alienates people without realizing she is doing so, even though academically she is brilliant.

 

[lil_buddy]

Breaking news: Jodi hit her mother for "no reason" in youth. More to come hopefully!

 

[Woe.be.gone]

It all comes down to sexuality in this case. If Travis had listened to the Angels and not slept with this maniac, he would be alive. Gad, I abhor this female....

In this case, I think it's more complicated than the fact that he was sexual with her. After I heard the meaning of what a slit throat means as written in the book of Mormon (someone pointed this out as I haven't read it), it became apparent that TA must have made JA promises that he didn't keep. The dynamic between the two of them seems very complex. Combined with the religion, perceived broken covenants and that message TA sent JA berating her must have enraged JA to the point of no return. If TA had broken it off early on and had been firm about it (no longer participating in a physical relationship) this may have not happened. So in that way it all came down to sexuality but JA wanted more from the relationship.

Today they are reporting on the news that JA was actually listed as the person who would accompany TA on the trip to Mexico. After all this time, why hasn't the prosecution mentioned that? How long before June had that trip been booked? What happened inbetween? Keeping in mind TA and JA had bought a book together about the places to see before you die.

 

[lil_buddy]

I will never be convinced that Jodi did anything based on some obscure interpretation of a religious text.

 

[SMK]

I will never be convinced that Jodi did anything based on some obscure interpretation of a religious text.

Who said she did? Not I. I said it would be used after the fact as a psychological self-justification. :furious:

PS:
yikes lil_buddy - forgive me- i thought you were still harping on Crowley.:what:
with the Mormon slit "ear to ear" passage, I thought Jodi was trying to stage it to make it look like a Mormon hit.:blushing:

 

[Sleuth5]

You've just helped me clear up a mystery involving an NPD in my life -- in some ways he's been easy to deal with because he's not savvy enough to know (or as you put it, Sleuth5, "unable to recognize") how he comes across. I've always marveled at this: how someone who seems so devious and smart in some ways can be so clueless as far as their own behavior is concerned. I was just in court with him and was amazed by his inappropriate behavior. But I guess that's the problem (the silver lining?) with NPDs -- they don't think they're inappropriate at all, and put their inappropriateness out there for the world to see.

(Wow! Once I start posting there's apparently no stopping me!):seeya:

Oh, I've been there with several malignant narcissists in my life.

One of the hallmarks of the disorder is an inability to learn from experience. You will see narcissists repeatedly attempt the same strategies which have failed miserably before. Some psychologists say that it is a matter of an "undifferentiated personality" associated with the mental outlook of five-year-olds, and that those with NPD actually suffer from the five-year-old's inability to differentiate one situation from another. In other words, if a dog is nice, all dogs are nice. If you are talented at one thing, you are talented at all things. If you are special to one person, you are special to all people. If you are the center of your parent's lives, you are the center of all other people's lives as well.

Naturally, most people move beyond this at that stage and begin to see the world in the complex way that it actually works. However, under that particular theory, some narcissists are never able to recognize that they are greatly oversimplifying the world and that their oversimplifications are obvious to others. That is why it is so critical for narcissists to control the immediate circle of people with whom they engage. They must control the external environment in order to assure that all involved have the "appropriate" image they wish to project.

You can see much of this in JA's behavior. She is genuinely oblivious to how she appears to others because she is convinced that she is able to project her own version of self onto others and force them to accept it. Her ego blinds her to her own foolish mistakes -- particularly in her overly-dramatic, overly complex stories and excuses for her own behavior. She cannot see that the world does not expect anyone to never be jealous, or angry, or possessive. Rather than realizing that we will see that as unbelievable, she will continue to claim that she is a perfect being because she believes she can convince us that she is. :cow:

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Oh yes!! I have come across quite a few myself!! All of my very personal contact has been around assessing suitability for parenting (besides my own N family, and the N's that target me). Murderers paedophiles and rapist's too.
I have also come across many in the the workplace social workers, psychologists, doctors etc. It is a field they are attracted to because of the power/authority/narcissistic supply they get from the vulnerable. I avoid them like the plague.
They do dirty underhand stuff, and you feel like having a shower to get them off you.

When I was an army wife and the mother of a young child, I became very stressed out and my back went out and other stress related conditions popped up. It was a time when I was taking care of everyone but myself to include people I didn't even know other than through the chain of command in the army. I couldn't talk to anybody really. My family and old friends lived far away and were civilians so, in depth, they wouldn't really understand. My husband was a commander and there's a political side to that whole system and I didn't want to sound like a baby. I decided to go talk to someone at the mental health center. She was a youngish pretty woman who lacked experience and had an agenda (behavior modification). I figured this out in hindsight. All I needed was a listening ear as in a hug or encouragement or to be allowed just to vent, to release frustration without being afraid of gossip or judgment, etc. About the fifth time I saw her she said to me, 'you know, I'm not your friend'. I looked at her and thought to myself, 'that's for sure'. Like I didn't know that? What a buffoon that 'therapist' was and probably still is. After that experience I thought, never again. I told her superior the reason when asked why I wasn't coming back. She looked concerned with an expression of she said what? She then said to me, 'you're a lovely woman ______'. I swear, that's all I needed to hear to help get my thinking turned around. Sometimes it's the smallest thing or gesture that can make a difference when you're feeling down.

 

[SMK]

Oh yes!! I have come across quite a few myself!! All of my very personal contact has been around assessing suitability for parenting (besides my own N family, and the N's that target me). Murderers paedophiles and rapist's too.
I have also come across many in the the workplace social workers, psychologists, doctors etc. It is a field they are attracted to because of the power/authority/narcissistic supply they get from the vulnerable. I avoid them like the plague.
They do dirty underhand stuff, and you feel like having a shower to get them off you.

Me, too - and AMEN to that, sister.

 

[SMK]

When I was an army wife and the mother of a young child, I became very stressed out and my back went out and other stress related conditions popped up. It was a time when I was taking care of everyone but myself to include people I didn't even know other than through the chain of command in the army. I couldn't talk to anybody really. My family and old friends lived far away and were civilians so, in depth, they wouldn't really understand. My husband was a commander and there's a political side to that whole system and I didn't want to sound like a baby. I decided to go talk to someone at the mental health center. She was a youngish pretty woman who lacked experience and had an agenda (behavior modification). I figured this out in hindsight. All I needed was a listening ear as in a hug or encouragement or to be allowed just to vent, to release frustration without being afraid of gossip or judgment, etc. About the fifth time I saw her she said to me, 'you know, I'm not your friend'. I looked at her and thought to myself, 'that's for sure'. Like I didn't know that? What a buffoon that 'therapist' was and probably still is. After that experience I thought, never again. I told her superior the reason when asked why I wasn't coming back. She looked concerned with an expression of she said what? She then said to me, 'you're a lovely woman ______'. I swear, that's all I needed to hear to help get my thinking turned around. Sometimes it's the smallest thing or gesture that can make a difference when you're feeling down.

I had a similar experience, and yes, yes to all -YES.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I will never be convinced that Jodi did anything based on some obscure interpretation of a religious text.

Who said she did? Not I. I said it would be used after the fact as a psychological self-justification. :furious:

PS:
yikes lil_buddy - forgive me- i thought you were still harping on Crowley.:what:
with the Mormon slit "ear to ear" passage, I thought Jodi was trying to stage it to make it look like a Mormon hit.:blushing:

Oh I brought that up but didn't remember who posted the info originally.

If JA is as diabolical as people are suggesting she is, I don't think it's a stretch that the idea of her slicing his throat is connected to a story related to Mormonism. Discussing Mormon beliefs and rules was a big part of their time spent together. Or maybe I should say discussing the ways around obeying them.

 

[MeeBee]

Too true. I never believed that and find it convenient that with so many clearly outstanding characteristics of various personality disorders none of the defense experts in either case could find any significant evidence of them. I know that if I were a juror, I would find that patently insulting to my intelligence. :banghead:

Yay! Jodi said herself she used to hit and kick her own mother. Now that is a bombshell!

 

[lil_buddy]

JA is neither clever nor learned.
Her motivations are simple - jealousy, anger, greed.
You don't need a PhD in theology to understand them

 

[human]

In this case, I think it's more complicated than the fact that he was sexual with her. After I heard the meaning of what a slit throat means as written in the book of Mormon (someone pointed this out as I haven't read it), it became apparent that TA must have made JA promises that he didn't keep. The dynamic between the two of them seems very complex. Combined with the religion, perceived broken covenants and that message TA sent JA berating her must have enraged JA to the point of no return. If TA had broken it off early on and had been firm about it (no longer participating in a physical relationship) this may have not happened. So in that way it all came down to sexuality but JA wanted more from the relationship.

Today they are reporting on the news that JA was actually listed as the person who would accompany TA on the trip to Mexico. After all this time, why hasn't the prosecution mentioned that? How long before June had that trip been booked? What happened inbetween? Keeping in mind TA and JA had bought a book together about the places to see before you die.

Cancun is not on the list of places to go to

 

[SMK]

In this case, I think it's more complicated than the fact that he was sexual with her. After I heard the meaning of what a slit throat means as written in the book of Mormon (someone pointed this out as I haven't read it), it became apparent that TA must have made JA promises that he didn't keep. The dynamic between the two of them seems very complex. Combined with the religion, perceived broken covenants and that message TA sent JA berating her must have enraged JA to the point of no return. If TA had broken it off early on and had been firm about it (no longer participating in a physical relationship) this may have not happened. So in that way it all came down to sexuality but JA wanted more from the relationship.

Today they are reporting on the news that JA was actually listed as the person who would accompany TA on the trip to Mexico. After all this time, why hasn't the prosecution mentioned that? How long before June had that trip been booked? What happened inbetween? Keeping in mind TA and JA had bought a book together about the places to see before you die.

Here is the reference from Wikipedia:

Killing of Travis Alexander

He had been stabbed 29 times (the original report indicated 27 stab wounds), his throat was slit from ear to ear.

The bolded was originally linked to: (oddly enough , the link is no longer there)

Penalty: Mormonism:

" no less penalty than to have my throat cut ear to ear..."

which has now been edited to leave out the ear to ear part. :what:Guess my citing it on Websleuths made the editors take a closer look. In any case, the entire verse is there somewhere in one of my March 2013 Websleuths posts.

But yes, she might well have viewed him as having broken faith with her and being under the penalty phase. Being ousted from this trip in favor of a younger virgin must have been the blow, her Achilles heel.

 

[SMK]

Yay! Jodi said herself she used to hit and kick her own mother. Now that is a bombshell!

Was her mother an alcoholic or an abuser or something? Just want to be certain it was not "in self defense", as it were.

 

[MeeBee]

Was her mother an alcoholic or an abuser or something? Just want to be certain it was not "in self defense", as it were.

Did you actually hear the testimony? Jodi mouthed the words "I never hit my mom," but to Doc Sam, she said she did. And kicked her. I doubt this was in response to the mom hitting her or Jodi would have said so, not just she carried around wooden spoons...