Aruba - Natalee Holloway, 18, Oranjestad, 30 May 2005 *AL extortion trial* *Guilty* #3

  • #461
What incentive does Joran have to finally tell the truth about what happened to Natalee?

Only attention. And maybe he thinks there's some money in it somewhere.

I think the most simple solution is the most likely. He pressured her for sex, or something she was not willing to do, and he was enraged, and killed her. He's mentioned hitting her head on a rock in more than one interview, and most likely he hit her head with a rock, several times.

And how can his defenders excuse his murder in Peru? He claims he found her googling Natalee and became enraged and killed her. I think that is utter fantasy. Stephany was gay. They had been gambling and partying together in the casino. The might have gone back to his room with what Stephany thought were completely innocent reasons. Wind down after a big win, count money, smoke a joint. I think he knew she was gay and had this idea after she told him, that his magic penis could straighten her out. He ended up killing her.

Is there any doubt he killed Stephany Flores? No. How can that be explained away as Joran is a bullied victim? Who is bullying Joran for his own behavior?

All MOO
 
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  • #462
I don't think he killed her, I think she probably died while he was there. But that's nothing to rehash now.

Too much water under the bridge now, and legally it's an unrelated disappearance. The prosecutor saw enough to accept a guilty plea for fraud. Earlier a polygraph was mentioned; It makes sense if he did pass one, because he clearly did lie about putting her body beneath a foundation of a house which hadn't been built yet.

He has the same right to competent defense as do any of us. My main point is that they would never let him incriminate himself in a crime that was never proven to ever happen. Nor would the prosecutor or judge allow it.

Imo

Some crime was committed by someone, at the least disposal of the body. But the story doesn't say he's going to admit to murder, but that he will give "details of how Natalee died and how her body was disposed of."

I won't believe it though till it happens and any info is verified.
 
  • #463
What incentive does Joran have to finally tell the truth about what happened to Natalee?

Only attention. And maybe he thinks there's some money in it somewhere.

I think the most simple solution is the most likely. He pressured her for sex, or something she was not willing to do, and he was enraged, and killed her. He's mentioned hitting her head on a rock in more than one interview, and most likely he hit her head with a rock, several times.

And how can his defenders excuse his murder in Peru? He claims he found her googling Natalee and became enraged and killed her. I think that is utter fantasy. Stephany was gay. They had been gambling and partying together in the casino. The might have gone back to his room with what Stephany thought were completely innocent reasons. Wind down after a big win, count money, smoke a joint. I think he knew she was gay and had this idea after she told him, that his magic penis could straighten her out. He ended up killing her.

Is there any doubt he killed Stephany Flores? No. How can that be explained away as Joran is a bullied victim? Who is bullying Joran for his own behavior?

All MOO
Stephany was murdered on the anniversary of NH vanishing so not far-fetched she was googling. I also think he murdered Stephany to rob her.

 
  • #464
Dateline 10/16/2023 - CNN

"Joran van der Sloot, the suspect in the unsolved 2005 disappearance of Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway who is accused of extorting and defrauding the teen’s mother, is expected to enter a guilty plea to federal charges at a Wednesday hearing, an attorney for her family says.
It is not known what specific charges in the extortion case he will plead guilty to, or what the sentence will be."

Holloway family attorney John Q. Kelly confirmed to CNN van der Sloot intends to plead guilty in connection to the case.
Kelly told NBC’s “Today” show that a condition of the plea deal requires Van der Sloot to reveal details of how Holloway died and how her body was disposed of.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/us/joran-van-der-sloot-natalee-holloway-plea/index.html

JMO
 
  • #465
JVDS was charged with the crime on this thread that he's allegedly going to plead guilty to on the same day he confessed to killing Stephany.

 
  • #466
1 All along, the evidence has been crystal clear that JVDS committed extortion and fraud, and if he goes to trial, he will be found guilty. Unless you are willfully blind and in denial, or completely ignorant of what happened, or have an odd bias, you know this. It is obvious.

J knows this too. He knows he did it, and he knows he has been caught with his hand in the proverbial cookie jar. And his attorney knows this too. Nor should we pretend that the attorney wants to try this loser of a case, and waste his time, if it can be avoided. For both guilty defendant and attorney, both of them have seen the handwriting on the wall and are trying to cut their losses.

2 As to whether he will plead guilty, there's no reason to think otherwise.
... EVERYONE who would know is saying this is what is about to happen. And we know from who he is, and his history, that he won't fight once he's caught red-handed. A narcissistic psychopath (which he is) has to always be "right" - so when he is about to be shown to be wrong, he will try to get in front of it and make it his idea rather than your proof paraded in front of the world. That's what he did with the murder of Stephany Flores too - once he saw they had plenty of proof, he pled guilty and tried to get the best sentence he could.

3 As to whether there will be a confession of some sort, there's no rational reason to think otherwise. I was skeptical initially since that was not mentioned when this plea/sentence hearing was given a date, but now we have been told. What he might confess to, and how it is released, and its bearing on the sentence, all of that remains to be seen, but we should expect that something will be coming. And if it has any impact on the sentence, we can expect it will be something solid and significant, rather than puff words of no real value.

4 One reason we should expect this is that John Kelly is a very well-known, solid, credible lawyer. He is right inside this case, he knows what a liar JVDS is, and when he says the guilty plea will also be accompanied by information from JVDS, we should expect that the statement has already been given IN ITS ENTIRETY, checked and double-checked, and assessed for its value, reliability, and usefulness. They won't give JVDS something, and then receive a big fat nothing. They didn't the last time, either, even though it looked like they had been tricked -- but their awareness of the snake, and knowing how to deal with one, got them here.

How can they be sure? What safeguards do they have? We don't know - but it's a smart bet to expect they have all that covered.

5 As for what impact it will have on the sentence, the people negotiating this deal are super smart and also know what an evil murderous lying man JVDS is from past experience. They already have a winning hand, and I don't expect him to get any help on sentencing unless he TRULY gives up something that others want and need.

It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. And it's exciting that the Holloway family might finally be getting some justice after all these years.
 
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  • #467
I don't think he killed her, I think she probably died while he was there. But that's nothing to rehash now.

Too much water under the bridge now, and legally it's an unrelated disappearance. The prosecutor saw enough to accept a guilty plea for fraud. Earlier a polygraph was mentioned; It makes sense if he did pass one, because he clearly did lie about putting her body beneath a foundation of a house which hadn't been built yet.

He has the same right to competent defense as do any of us. My main point is that they would never let him incriminate himself in a crime that was never proven to ever happen. Nor would the prosecutor or judge allow it.

Imo
I could never in a million years kill someone. Haven’t as much as laid a finger with intent to harm on another human being in my entire lifetime. I am simply not capable.

But some people are.

You’re telling me that someone who we know for sure strangled and beat one woman to death..just happened to be around another unsolved death, that they went out of their way to cover up, but had nothing to do with directly causing it?

Nah. Going to disagree on that one.

The drug overdose theory (which I assume is what you’re implying) died on the day he murdered his 2nd woman. IMO He murdered Natalie with his own hands.

Lock this abusive murderous monster up and throw away the key.

MOO
 
  • #468
Back in 2005 when Dan Riehl was providing the best aggregation and first hand local reporting there were a lot of theories out there. And through all that early reporting and false confessions and reading and posting in this community and others…the one that always stuck with me is that Natalie reacted to something Joran did to her and he couldn’t get her to stop yelling. And she told him that she was going to go to authorities. And he made the decision to silence her.
 
  • #469
I could never in a million years kill someone. Haven’t as much as laid a finger with intent to harm on another human being in my entire lifetime. I am simply not capable.

But some people are.

You’re telling me that someone who we know for sure strangled and beat one woman to death..just happened to be around another unsolved death, that they went out of their way to cover up, but had nothing to do with directly causing it?

Nah. Going to disagree on that one.

The drug overdose theory (which I assume is what you’re implying) died on the day he murdered his 2nd woman. IMO He murdered Natalie with his own hands.

Lock this abusive murderous monster up and throw away the key.

MOO
I don't know what you are referring to re drugs.

And I never said any of what you attribute to me in your third 'graph.

I have formulated my own politely expressed ideas about the case.

I react to cases based on my own life history, my own decisions over a really long life, and, many times know it was only thru grace that I somewhow lived thru it all. Especially the ages of 19-22 or so. I made it thru, others who then and nowadays make similar choices don't make it.

We're Americans, some large portion of us, and the law applies to everyone, when we screw up and break a law we are afforded counsel to defend us. He is pleading guilty to financial fraud.

In no country of the world, under no legal jurisdiction is he a declared suspect in the disappearance of NH. And while many brickbats were thrown at Aruba "island justice", the fact of the matter is that the Netherlands' law was applied. He was arrested several times, declared a suspect, but no crime was proven to have taken place, he is no longer a suspect.

I already said a few months ago what I think probably happened. It's partly based on what American media was allowed to present, which would have been illegal had the then-suspects have been American or had the disappearance taken place in our country. And, to me that is sad and did nothing to help solve the case and further destroyed any incentive for cooperation.

I already opined that he will be murdered in Peru, at the least commit or be found to have committed financial crimes, cuz that's the way it is in prisons where the inmates run the show.

Imo
 
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  • #470
The monster Joran will always be the prime and only suspect no matter what. Obviously, they can't find the body because it's been 18 years.
 
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  • #471
  • #472

jennifer c.png
 
  • #473
I don't know what you are referring to re drugs.

And I never said any of what you attribute to me in your third 'graph.

I have formulated my own politely expressed ideas about the case.

I react to cases based on my own life history, my own decisions over a really long life, and, many times know it was only thru grace that I somewhow lived thru it all. Especially the ages of 19-22 or so. I made it thru, others who then and nowadays make similar choices don't make it.

We're Americans, some large portion of us, and the law applies to everyone, when we screw up and break a law we are afforded counsel to defend us. He is pleading guilty to financial fraud.

In no country of the world, under no legal jurisdiction is he a declared suspect in the disappearance of NH. And while many brickbats were thrown at Aruba "island justice", the fact of the matter is that the Netherlands' law was applied. He was arrested several times, declared a suspect, but no crime was proven to have taken place, he is no longer a suspect.

No crime was proven because he hid the body so well. That does not mean he wasn't responsible for her death. She left the party with Joran and his 2 buddies, never to be seen again.

And he has admitted to killing another young woman who was unlucky enough to be alone with him one sad night. So how can you so easily dismiss him as Natalee's possible killer?
I already said a few months ago what I think probably happened. It's partly based on what American media was allowed to present, which would have been illegal had the then-suspects have been American or had the disappearance taken place in our country. And, to me that is sad and did nothing to help solve the case and further destroyed any incentive for cooperation.

I already opined that he will be murdered in Peru, at the least commit or be found to have committed financial crimes, cuz that's the way it is in prisons where the inmates run the show.

Imo
Financial crimes? That's a kind word for it. He was bleeding dry a mother, whose child he killed years earlier. He was coldheartedly messing with her and it cannot be labeled simply 'financial crimes', imo.
 
  • #474
No crime was proven because he hid the body so well. That does not mean he wasn't responsible for her death. She left the party with Joran and his 2 buddies, never to be seen again.

And he has admitted to killing another young woman who was unlucky enough to be alone with him one sad night. So how can you so easily dismiss him as Natalee's possible killer?

Financial crimes? That's a kind word for it. He was bleeding dry a mother, whose child he killed years earlier. He was coldheartedly messing with her and it cannot be labeled simply 'financial crimes', imo.
I just don't agree that he killed her. But I already spelled out my opinion back when news came out that Jvds was returning.

I don't care if anyone shares my opinion, i respect yours, I just don't think it's likely that he was responsible for her death.
Imo
 
  • #475
I don't know what you are referring to re drugs.

And I never said any of what you attribute to me in your third 'graph.

I have formulated my own politely expressed ideas about the case.

I react to cases based on my own life history, my own decisions over a really long life, and, many times know it was only thru grace that I somewhow lived thru it all. Especially the ages of 19-22 or so. I made it thru, others who then and nowadays make similar choices don't make it.

We're Americans, some large portion of us, and the law applies to everyone, when we screw up and break a law we are afforded counsel to defend us. He is pleading guilty to financial fraud.

In no country of the world, under no legal jurisdiction is he a declared suspect in the disappearance of NH. And while many brickbats were thrown at Aruba "island justice", the fact of the matter is that the Netherlands' law was applied. He was arrested several times, declared a suspect, but no crime was proven to have taken place, he is no longer a suspect.

I already said a few months ago what I think probably happened. It's partly based on what American media was allowed to present, which would have been illegal had the then-suspects have been American or had the disappearance taken place in our country. And, to me that is sad and did nothing to help solve the case and further destroyed any incentive for cooperation.

I already opined that he will be murdered in Peru, at the least commit or be found to have committed financial crimes, cuz that's the way it is in prisons where the inmates run the show.

Imo
The below is MO and MO only.

I partied from 18 until 27. I was so good at it i managed to make it into my profession after I graduated from college at 22.

Mon - Wednesday 'networking' in lounges and clubs on industry nights and Thu, Fri, Sat working. Threw concerts and parties all over the world (Ibiza, Cape Verde, Miami, LA, Sacrament, SF, Chicago, Boston, Madison). Had regular A list attendees who i entertained with private tables and bottles. And booked a good amount of D list celebrities as hosts (former Real World / Road Rules cast Members was my niche for a few years). At some of the top nightclubs and in partnership with top shelf liquor brands. All of this before being burned out by the lifestyle and the people i encountered day to day. Seeing many of them at their worst. Then eventually pivoting (a complete 180), settling down with a brief stint teaching and now a family man and an executive in software.

I did a lot of growing up over that decade. And even more in the decade since.

IMO and experience....I"ve come across dozens of Joran's in my life. I got really good at recognizing them. Knew what to look for. Guys who only cared about themselves and their every move calculated and self serving. There solely to prey on the women who came to my events to have a good time. Buying them drink after drink. And shot after shot. Making sure the friends of the girl that they were interested in were having a good time too, as they would be more likely to accompany her back and hook up with his 'wingmen' (friends), or if they weren't interested in his wingmen, maybe they would let her leave alone with him if he just seemed cool enough. If they didn't find someone and convince them to leave early, they'd loiter/troll outside after closing, until every last one of them were gone.

Going home empty handed was never an option.

This might sound normal. Isn't this what happens in ALL nightclubs you ask? Sure. I guess. In a twisted sense, through the lens of 'hookup culture'. Where it starts to become predatory is that these guys, venue regulars, do it week after week after week for years at a time. And you start to realize that they are not looking for a relationship. They are going there to buy drinks and convince a girl to leave with them. All they want is to take advantage of another human being.

The point above becomes even more disturbing when you consider early reports that Joran enjoyed targeting American tourists for a hookup. Meaning he knew that any and all interactions (sexual or otherwise) were fleeting and likely transactional. No committment required. The next week would bring in a new batch of American woman for him to prey on. An endless supply fueled via tourism. It quickly moves from frequenting a bar dialed that's dialed into hookup culture to -> frequenting a bar that becomes their hunting grounds.

In my entire career in that world I only permanently banned 2 men. One for repeated inappropriate behavior and the other one, also a regular, for attempting to ply woman with a class a substance inside of a venue. He was also a creep and had it coming eventually (the ban).

The other creeps were merely dissuaded from coming in by having security keep them in long lines, inventing dress codes on the spot that didn't allow them to come in or simply give them the classic "private party, you on the list?" or my favorite "not tonight, guys"

Were any/all of them capable of murder? No. There's no way for me to know, really. But look no further than the deaths of Christy Giles and Hilda Marcela Cabrales-Arzola to see how quickly guys like this can ruin lives.
<modsnip - Fox News is not an approved source>

MOO
 
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  • #476
I just don't agree that he killed her. But I already spelled out my opinion back when news came out that Jvds was returning.

I don't care if anyone shares my opinion, i respect yours, I just don't think it's likely that he was responsible for her death.
Imo
I completely disagree with you and have always been disagreeing. Joran is responsible!
 
  • #477

3 min video

Final reveal of Natalee Holloway's fate after 20 years​



Nearly two decades after Natalee Holloway's disappearance, a breakthrough may be on the horizon as the main suspect is anticipated to disclose crucial information to her family in court tomorrow, as part of a plea deal.
 
  • #478
What kind of guy is Joran van der Sloot? Besides a double murderer, and more, he is also a guy who “blame on the two black guys” — and he did, and TWO black guys were first arrested by the police because he pointed them out and then they were jailed for 11 days until Beth Holloway PROVED their innocence. Beth is the one who save those two men from Joran and life (?) in prison.

 
  • #479
Food for thought as we ponder whether or not JVDS capable of being truthful for a plea agreement....


June 23, 2010

[,,]

For example, suppose Mr. van der Sloot--who has evidently already been evaluated and described by a forensic psychologist or psychiatrist in Peru as having a low threshold for frustration tolerance, emotional immaturity, superficial relationships, need for constant stimulation, and a hostile, dominating attitude toward women--turns out to be diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder, the American Psychiatric Association's (DSM-lV-TR) official term for sociopathy, psychopathy, amoral or dissocial personality? The possibility, indeed likelihood, of malingering must always be considered in forensic evaluations of defendants with possible Antisocial Personality Disorder or traits. Such defendants can be quite sophisticated (and some only think they are) in their knowledge of both psychology/psychiatry and the legal system.

[..]

The immense narcissism of such defendants convinces them that they can outsmart the system. In the same way that van der Sloot's reported compulsive gambling may reflect a grandiose overconfidence that he can beat the casino system. When van der Sloot tells investigators during his now recanted confession that he was intoxicated, "did not want to do it," became "angry," "lost control" "wasn't thinking clearly," recalls his actions but not his motive, and didn't know what he was doing when killing Stephany Flores, is he deliberately lying in such a way that he believes could help his legal situation? How much did he learn from his father, a lawyer and judge in Aruba, about issues like mens rea, irresistible impulse, and mental mitigation under the law? Or through his own research? Or could he be telling the truth? Could he have acted purely impulsively, flew into a violent rage, without premeditation, perhaps out of frustration of sexual rejection or fear of Stephany exposing his possible culpability in the Holloway case? Could this have been a crime of passion? Or, if responsible for this and possibly other murders, is he a calculating, predatory sexual psychopath who knew exactly what he intended to do with both Stephany Flores and Natalee Holloway from the start?

[..]

Licensed clinical psychologist and author Dr. Chloe Carmichael joined Grace where she characterized van der Sloot as a "vicious sociopath" who "toyed with" the Holloway family by trying to pry hundreds of thousands from Natalee's mother, Beth.
 
  • #480
The chief suspect in Natalee Holloway’s 2005 disappearance is expected to plead guilty on Wednesday and reveal details about her death to resolve a federal case accusing him of trying to extort money from the missing teen’s mother.


A federal judge set a plea and sentencing hearing for Joran van der Sloot in Birmingham, Alabama. He had previously entered a plea of not guilty in the case.


An attorney for Holloway’s family, John Q Kelly, confirmed to CNN that Van der Sloot’s intention was to reverse his not guilty plea as part of a deal with prosecutors.

Kelly told NBC’s Today that one of the deal’s conditions requires Van der Sloot to reveal how Holloway died and how her body had been disposed of.

“There won’t be any further investigation or search … for Natalee’s remains,” Kelly said on Today.

More at link ...


Tue 17 Oct 2023 08.16 EDT
 

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